Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[GeekyGirl]

I see the problem. You are using your own brain and trying to attribute your smarts to Casey. She is NOT like that. She lived on the edge. Look how she was living her life. Any moment one of her friends could have found out about any of her HUGE lies and everything would come crashing down--at it did.

But she lived it like that-lie upon lie. No foundation for any stability. She lived by the seat of her pants.

As to WHY she would bury a body with so many ties back to the home. My theory is that she planned to frame George all along. It was no accident that Baez came up with that theory. imoo

As to the premeditation--I believe the neckbreaking and chlorophyl were meant for her parents.
She was telling everyone that her parents were 'signing over' their house to her. She had Amy sending her camera to the house and using the address for future mail already.

The premeditation and fantasy was all about mom and dad, imo. But after the fight with mom, over the custody of Caylee, Casey became enraged and spiteful. She could not let her parents kick her out and take custody of Caylee. So she made a quick, but premeditated, decision to take Caylee away for her parents forever. imoo

Let me put it this way, and then I really have to go... Casey's impulsive and inherently lazy. She's not a planner, not someone who follows through. She looks at a situation and takes the easiest possible route. She decides Caylee is an obstacle and has to go? Totally buy that. But chloroforming your kid or suffocating them with duct tape are neither the quickest nor easiest method for achieving that goal. Not even by a long shot. It's not consistent with her behavior. Does that mean it couldn't have happened that way? Of course not. But it does make me take a closer look at the state's case. Thanks again! Hope to chat more later.

 

[katydid23]

Agreed, she's not a planner... excellent point, but then how do you explain the chloroform theory? That requires planning and follow through...

If you look at her criminal history then in some ways she did follow though. She stole the routing numbers from her Grandparents check and wrote a new check for her cell phone bill. She stole hundreds of checks from her mother and cashed them. She stole checks from Amy H and cashed them in different locations.

She sent herself a fake 'work' email from Universal to show her mom to make it seem she was employed there. In some ways she was industrious. I heard it said she was a good photographer and took classes and had learned to develop photos in a dark room . Back when they still did that the old way. So she had some knowledge of chemicals and that kind of stuff.

I think she looked up a do it yourself recipe on the internet and did a half arse version of it. It may not have worked too well, which is why it was spilled all over the carpet liner. I am not even sure Caylee died that way.

I think that she made chloroform because she wanted to try and set up a murder/suicide of her folks. She may have tried it out on the baby first though. I am not sure. I do not feel the need to know exactly how the killing occurred to find her guilty though. Because I believe there is ample evidence that she wanted the child to die. So I do not care how she attained that goal. imoo

 

[Nova24]

There could be a hold out but I think that is why they will just split the baby and go with lesser charges versus a hung jury and mistrial. I don't think they will believe drowning story and the George cover up. She would have been better off saying she drowned on her watch and she panicked. I also think denying the baby was ever in the trunk was a bad idea. There's clearly evidence she was there.

 

[RANCH]

Florida Attorney Richard Hornsby has taught me a lot.

One of the main things he taught me is to think like a juror in this case.

If it is really true that these jurors didn't know that much about the case then I can certainly see a hung jury.

At the most a reduced charged but not 1st degree.

They can't say how Caylee died. It could have been an accident. I don't believe it was but again, I'm trying to think like the jury.

In the Scott Peterson case they didn't know how Laci Peterson died either but they knew it was murder by the manner in which her body was found.

Scott couldn't say Laci died accidental and he went to all this trouble to hider her body because he was scared. That wouldn't pass the smell test.

We hear too many tragic stories of little kids drowning in a pool. That's why it seems plausible.

Where the theory goes off track is everything the defense put out after admitting she drowned in a pool.

Here is the thing Baez could get up there and say, "The Prosecution showed you how much Casey lied and just how shallow she is. The Prosecution just proved our case ladies and gentlemen. They showed just how dysfunctional Casey is and we showed you how dysfunctional her whole family is so how can you convict her when everyone one her family lies?"

I'm leaning toward a hung jury or maybe they will see through all that stuff the defense threw out there and convict her quickly of first degree.

In other words, I really don't know.

You know what Tricia,I don't know either. I sure don't hope for a hung jury even though that's possible.We'll see in the next few days I'm sure.

 

[katydid23]

Florida Attorney Richard Hornsby has taught me a lot.

One of the main things he taught me is to think like a juror in this case.

If it is really true that these jurors didn't know that much about the case then I can certainly see a hung jury.

At the most a reduced charged but not 1st degree.

They can't say how Caylee died. It could have been an accident. I don't believe it was but again, I'm trying to think like the jury.

In the Scott Peterson case they didn't know how Laci Peterson died either but they knew it was murder by the manner in which her body was found.

Scott couldn't say Laci died accidental and he went to all this trouble to hider her body because he was scared. That wouldn't pass the smell test.

We hear too many tragic stories of little kids drowning in a pool. That's why it seems plausible.

Where the theory goes off track is everything the defense put out after admitting she drowned in a pool.

Here is the thing Baez could get up there and say, "The Prosecution showed you how much Casey lied and just how shallow she is. The Prosecution just proved our case ladies and gentlemen. They showed just how dysfunctional Casey is and we showed you how dysfunctional her whole family is so how can you convict her when everyone one her family lies?"

I'm leaning toward a hung jury or maybe they will see through all that stuff the defense threw out there and convict her quickly of first degree.

In other words, I really don't know.

It is true---you can NEVER know what a jury is going to do. It is often a surprise and too hard to predict.

I will say that I doubt there will be a hung jury. And only because this jury LOVES them some Judge Perry. He has gone above and beyond for them. I do not believe they will do that TO HIM. I believe they will come to a successful compromise to honor the judge. I think they will give her Aggravated Child Abuse of some sort, and skidaddle back home. imoo

 

[Whisperer]

Sorry, I'm getting tired, so I hope this abbreviated version makes sense, basically I don't think I could say that I'm reasonably sure I know how Caylee was murdered. I think she was, but I'm not sure under what circumstances. I have a really hard time saying that Chloroform was definitely involved (there's a much longer explanation of my thoughts behind this a few pages back) and the duct tape presents issues for me too (again, long explanation further back). Even Dr G said the she couldn't scientifically support listing duct tape as the cause of death. Without being reasonably certain what actually caused Caylee's death, I would have problems saying that I was reasonably sure that her death meets the elements of first degree murder, either by premeditation or the felony murder rule. I know many people disagree with me, and I understand why, but it's just how I feel. I would absolutely no problem, if I were on the jury, voting for agg manslaughter, which only requires proof that Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, and I think the state absolutely did the best with what they had. Again, only what I think based on the legal requirements for burden of proof, not my speculations on what actually happened that day. Sorry if I didn't fully answer your question, but my fingers are cramping up... MOO and no disrespect to anyone else's opinion.

It seems you may be hung up on cause of death. Maybe your feelings are getting in the way. Cause of death is not important...we have manner of death. It is always interesting to hear how people reason.

Thank you for your explanation. I hope your fingers get better. You have lots of good stuff to post. :innocent:

 

[crucibelle]

Agreed, she's not a planner... excellent point, but then how do you explain the chloroform theory? That requires planning and follow through...

Agreed. She was too lazy to plan for a spot to dispose of the body, and she was too lazy to go through the methodical process of creating chloroform, IMO. I don't think chloroform had anything to do with the death of Caylee. JMO!!!

 

[Whisperer]

Bottom line = It was NOT an accident. There is no evidence presented that shows it was an accident and there was no accident reported. Therefore it is not reasonable thinking.

It is simply wishful thinking of kind hearted people. It may be too much for some to think otherwise. If by the remote chance you insist it had to be accident and the perp insisted on making it look like a murder, why in the world did she put THREE layers of tape on her mouth and nose? wouldn't one layer suffice for a staging?

By the time the second layer was applied, you are looking at intentional and pre-meditated.

 

[crucibelle]

If you look at her criminal history then in some ways she did follow though. She stole the routing numbers from her Grandparents check and wrote a new check for her cell phone bill. She stole hundreds of checks from her mother and cashed them. She stole checks from Amy H and cashed them in different locations.

She sent herself a fake 'work' email from Universal to show her mom to make it seem she was employed there. In some ways she was industrious. I heard it said she was a good photographer and took classes and had learned to develop photos in a dark room . Back when they still did that the old way. So she had some knowledge of chemicals and that kind of stuff.

I think she looked up a do it yourself recipe on the internet and did a half arse version of it. It may not have worked too well, which is why it was spilled all over the carpet liner. I am not even sure Caylee died that way.

I think that she made chloroform because she wanted to try and set up a murder/suicide of her folks. She may have tried it out on the baby first though. I am not sure. I do not feel the need to know exactly how the killing occurred to find her guilty though. Because I believe there is ample evidence that she wanted the child to die. So I do not care how she attained that goal. imoo

BBM... ya know, you just might be right about that. Maybe that's why one of the individual components of chloroform was also found in the trunk... she didn't separate the chloroform precisely enough from the other two liquids that would have been sitting above in the mixing container. Hmmm....

 

[crucibelle]

Sorry, I'm getting tired, so I hope this abbreviated version makes sense, basically I don't think I could say that I'm reasonably sure I know how Caylee was murdered. I think she was, but I'm not sure under what circumstances. I have a really hard time saying that Chloroform was definitely involved (there's a much longer explanation of my thoughts behind this a few pages back) and the duct tape presents issues for me too (again, long explanation further back). Even Dr G said the she couldn't scientifically support listing duct tape as the cause of death. Without being reasonably certain what actually caused Caylee's death, I would have problems saying that I was reasonably sure that her death meets the elements of first degree murder, either by premeditation or the felony murder rule. I know many people disagree with me, and I understand why, but it's just how I feel. I would absolutely no problem, if I were on the jury, voting for agg manslaughter, which only requires proof that Casey was responsible for Caylee's death, and I think the state absolutely did the best with what they had. Again, only what I think based on the legal requirements for burden of proof, not my speculations on what actually happened that day. Sorry if I didn't fully answer your question, but my fingers are cramping up... MOO and no disrespect to anyone else's opinion.

Respectfully, it sounds to me like you are looking at certain pieces of evidence in isolation, instead of looking at the evidence as a whole.

 

[RANCH]

Agreed. She was too lazy to plan for a spot to dispose of the body, and she was too lazy to go through the methodical process of creating chloroform, IMO. I don't think chloroform had anything to do with the death of Caylee. JMO!!!

Your probably right, but the searches and the elevated amounts of chloroform in the trunk of the Sunfire? Why?

 

[smartsass]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crucibelle View Post
Agreed. She was too lazy to plan for a spot to dispose of the body, and she was too lazy to go through the methodical process of creating chloroform, IMO. I don't think chloroform had anything to do with the death of Caylee. JMO!!!

For a long time, I felt she dumped Caylee close to home because she is lazy. Perhaps that is in part true, but it also seems to fit with convenience, of course, but most convincing to me is that it seems common for women who kill their children and dispose of them to keep them close by. I believe that goes toward the threads about murderers who revisit the scene of the crime. Either out of sick fascination or a need to grieve in her own way, I feel Casey purposely placed her there. Not to mention, that often the most obvious is the most overlooked. The "in plain sight" argument, if you will.

 

[ecs5298]

Agreed. She was too lazy to plan for a spot to dispose of the body, and she was too lazy to go through the methodical process of creating chloroform, IMO. I don't think chloroform had anything to do with the death of Caylee. JMO!!!

BBM:

Who said she created it. It's been posted that several industrial supply houses carry it. It's cheap and can be picked up over the counter in the Orlando area.

If you ask me? I think she might have lifted some from the tattoo shop in one of her many visits there. Seems to fit her style....deception and theft.

JMHO as always.

 

[GeekyGirl]

It seems you may be hung up on cause of death. Maybe your feelings are getting in the way. Cause of death is not important...we have manner of death. It is always interesting to hear how people reason.

Thank you for your explanation. I hope your fingers get better. You have lots of good stuff to post. :innocent:

Okay, so I caved and checked one last time before going to bed... I would respectfully disagree that cause of death is not important, but the exact cause death is not required if the state can find other ways to support their claim that the crime meets the elements required for the charge, in this case first degree murder. I'm not disputing the manner of death, homicide is a reasonable conclusion given the facts. But homicide isn't the same as murder, it includes murder, manslaughter, even self defense (justifiable homicide). All the manner of death tells us is that Casey is responsible for Caylee's death, either by something she did, or by failing to act when she should have. Of the crimes she's charged with, two are homicides. First degree murder, and aggravated manslaughter of a child.

In order to prove murder in the first degree the state must prove, BARD, that:

1. The victim is dead
And
2. The victim died as a result of a criminal act by the defendant
3. The act was premeditated
Or
2. The victim died as the result of a predicate felony (in this case, aggravated child abuse)

We can all agree that #1 is true. The rest of the elements are not as clear. As I said, I'm really not sure chloroform was involved. If there was any evidence that tied the actual production or ownership of chloroform to Casey prior to the death, I would feel differently, but it's a huge logical leap to say that searches three months prior and the forensic testing done over a month after are proof positive that it was involved. Which is not good for the state because the chloroform easily supported aggravated child abuse. So we're left with the duct tape, and again, I'm just not sure about that. I know some may find that unreasonable, but as I said, the long form of my issues with this can be found earlier in the thread. So without the duct tape or the chloroform, what else is there to prove that premeditation existed or aggravated child abuse occurred? Others have said the 31 days of "Yay!" (credit to AZlawyer), but my argument is that Casey is incredibly narcissistic and possibly sociopathic. If Caylee died because Casey was negligent in some way, she wouldn't have gone for help, she would have looked at the situation and done what was best for Casey, not Caylee. (Interestingly, research suggests that NPD and sociopathic people may actually have underdeveloped amygdalas, which is the part of the brain responsible for the fear and panic response, so no "OMG it's an emergency, call 911" instinct to fight) The best thing for Casey would be to not be held responsible in any way, and hey, bonus, now doesn't have a kid to deal with. The point of all that is, I don't think the 31 days are reasonable proof of anything other than Casey knowing she was responsible for Caylee's death.

So, do I think Caylee was murdered? probably. Do I think it happened the way the state said it did? Maybe, maybe not. Given those two things, could I say that Caylee's death meets the legal standard for murder? No, not beyond a reasonable doubt. What would I need to be able to say I did? Some stronger evidence that the death must have logically been premeditated, or an act of aggravated child abuse occurred and resulted in her death.

For example, the Scott Peterson case... No exact cause of death, but you have him telling the girlfriend his wife was dead less than a month before she died, and evidence of antemortem trauma that precluded any scenario other than violence, and a coldly calculated plan to dispose of her body in a way that would hopefully keep her remains from ever being discovered.

 

[GeekyGirl]

Respectfully, it sounds to me like you are looking at certain pieces of evidence in isolation, instead of looking at the evidence as a whole.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm trying to break down my thought process, which means examining the weight and validity of each element of evidence and where it fits into the bigger picture. I promise, I see the totality of it all too.

 

[~PrinceSSa~]

Your probably right, but the searches and the elevated amounts of chloroform in the trunk of the Sunfire? Why?

It is my belief that chloroform was probably not used on Caylee. First I thought that chloroform may be used to clean the carpet in the trunk but those searches were months before Caylee even ended up inside the trunk so that's not a very good explanation.
I am also not sure if chloroform could be used to clean carpets<?>

I have not followed this case from day 1 and I'm sure I am missing a lot of crucial information to come to some kind of reasonable conclusion however from all the info that I do know....I believe she googled chloroform with the intent to use it <on someone>

Weighing all the factors in this case and probably not knowing much more than those jurors; I have NO doubt that Casey killed her baby. I just can't say for sure HOW or WHY but I am sure the duct tape played a major role and probably was the murder weapon.

When I follow the duct tape it brings me back to ICA. Not George, not Cindy nor Lee or anyone else that was created in her fictious mind, but ICA.

I think the DT has failed to create reasonable doubt. :great:

 

[Whisperer]

I'm stuck on the three layers. That represents intense anger. One piece wasn't enough. She had to do it x3. It is easy to see that this was intentional. This was not staged. Whether or not anyone accepts ICA used chloroform is not relevant. She applied THREE layers of tape. She was full of rage when she killed Caylee...that is what the duct tape tells us.

 

[Who_What_When]

I understand that. What I meant was that I don't really care if the jury decides on LWOP vs 30 yrs vs LiFE w/Parole. I will be satisfied with any of those.

I feel the same way, I was just trying to explain the difference as it pertains to the law.

 

[Chewy]

Part of the problem is that we don't know where and when this happened, and what the trigger may have been. IMO If you go with the least problematic scenario, it happened in the afternoon, in the garage and Casey is frustrated, angry, snaps and focuses on Caylee as being the thing that's keeping her from getting what she wants. Casey grabs the duct tape. Assuming Casey is intent on murder, she has to cover the airways completely. I would think she would have had to bind Caylee's wrists, bc Casey didn't appear to have any scratch marks on her arms. Then tear and apply three pieces of tape, all while Caylee is likely crying, fighting, kicking, trying to pull at the tape... Casey would have to be holding her close, be face to face with her, seeing the terror in her eyes, fighting to get the tape on, and keep it on, and keep herself from getting hurt or bruised in the process.

It's just extremely violent and sadistic, and we don't have any evidence that Casey has every been that way before. Not saying it's not possible, but why not something easier, like a pillow or plastic bag? (Ugh, just writing that makes me literally nauseous and teary eyed) Sorry if I've upset anyone, not my intention.

Not if she was knocked out. I've posted this quite a bit and it doesn't seem to be noticed.

Any of you parents out there? The PITA for me when dealing with a toddler was getting them to fall asleep. Once they WERE asleep they usually stayed asleep.

So I can see Casey using chloroform to just knock out Caylee. She didn't need to use it to "keep her out" just to knock her out. Drugging her kid would be traceable so she just knocked her out with gas.

Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between 'accidentally' giving a child too much chloroform, or 'accidentally' leaving a child in the trunk for too long, or 'accidentally' uploading fusion pix while your child swims alone in the pool, and placing tape over their mouth and nose while they are sleeping. It is all despicable, imo.
There is no chance she is going to get the DP anyway, imo. So the only question is between 30 yrs or LWOP. I would be happy with either one.

I think this is my issue with people who are arguing that it was an accident and therefor not the same as murder.


IMHO accidents can be murder. But the courts don't always see it that way. Like killing someone by Drunk Driving ought to be a murder charge to me but it isn't.

Once out she could do what she'd like. The more I think about it, the less I believe that she put her in the trunk with duct tape on her mouth. I think the duct tape was a staging after the fact because she realized she killed her, mind racing and so she figured she'd make it look like she was kidnapped.

 

[marlap]

Not if she was knocked out. I've posted this quite a bit and it doesn't seem to be noticed.

Any of you parents out there? The PITA for me when dealing with a toddler was getting them to fall asleep. Once they WERE asleep they usually stayed asleep.

So I can see Casey using chloroform to just knock out Caylee. She didn't need to use it to "keep her out" just to knock her out. Drugging her kid would be traceable so she just knocked her out with gas.





I think this is my issue with people who are arguing that it was an accident and therefor not the same as murder.


IMHO accidents can be murder. But the courts don't always see it that way. Like killing someone by Drunk Driving ought to be a murder charge to me but it isn't.

Once out she could do what she'd like. The more I think about it, the less I believe that she put her in the trunk with duct tape on her mouth. I think the duct tape was a staging after the fact because she realized she killed her, mind racing and so she figured she'd make it look like she was kidnapped.

That is possible, but ICA would still know it looked like murder.