Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[GeekyGirl]

And pre-meditated? The time it takes between the first application of the first piece of duct tape and the application of the second piece. Putting your finger on the trigger of a gun a pulling the trigger. Pre-mediation.

I'm confused, I said I thought it met the standard for premeditated... No need to debate me on something I agree with. It takes time to suffocate a child.

 

[gitana1]

Let me tell you, right before Jose blew it by calling Jeff "laughing man," he had me doubting her guilt. But I quickly slapped myself.

But there are a few things I don't get. If Casey duct taped the baby's mouth, it would have had to be done at home because that's where they found the duct tape, unless she took a roll of it somewhere else. But no duct tape was found at Tony's, or in her car or anywhere else but the Anthony home. So, what, George leaves for work on that Monday, and she tapes up her mouth tosses her in the trunk and takes off for Tony's?

I also don't get that, if she was lying about working for two years, (1) didn't her parents wonder why she had no money, or (2) where did she GET her money, and (3) where were she and Caylee when she was supposed to be working?

I also don't get why, if you kill your kid with duct tape, you'd leave it on the body when you disposed of it. You have to KNOW it will be found some day. Removing the tape at least gives you a fighting chance at denial.

And the $64,000 question, WHY around the corner from your HOUSE?! How bizarre!

Jose would have done better to try her with an insanity defense because you'd have to be insane to do what she did, because the alternative is evil and stupid. And we KNOW she's not stupid. I have a real hard time believing she purposely killed her that way. But I don't have any problem thinking she killed her in an effort to get her to sleep.

A couple of things. First, my feeling is she left the house, waited for her parents to leave, then came back and killed Caylee, using the duct tape she found there and leaving it behind. Murderers can be smart but they always miss a thing or two.

Second, her parents were well aware that casey was lying about working. They had confrontations about it. Cindy sometimes confronted casey, and even sought the help of a psychologist who told her to kick out casey and go for guardianship of Caylee. She threatened casey with that. That might have sparked casey to move on her murder plans when she did.GA actually tried to track her at her fake job to prove she didn't work, but Cindy got very upset by that and told him to stop.

But Cindy did not push as hard as she should have because it was easier not to press the matter and because she didn't want to admit casey was as screwed up as she is.

Third, it is well known that moms who kill their kids usually dispose of their bodies very close to home - usually within one mile. Wrapping the body in a blanket is also typical. It is a psychological thing, I guess: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/30/n...discarded-on-a-beach-one-that-doesnt-fit.html

I've just realized today that some posters believe the chloroform in the trunk came from the household cleaners that CA may have used to clean the car after they got it home from the tow yard. Didn't the experts test the items recovered in the car AND the sections in the trunk carpet where the stain was for chloroform?

If they tested the items recovered like the trash bag (which I thought had residual amounts) wouldn't that indicate the chloroform was there BEFORE the car was cleaned?

The AIR in the trunk was tested for chloroform. Dr. Vass found that when compared to other compounds from the trunk that tested positive, the chloroform had a high "peak". It was so high when compared with the other chemicals that showed up that it shocked Dr. Vass and caused the state to search the Anthony family computers for chloroform inquires.

But...... something is not right with her, and the defense and everyone who really knows her has shown this. She couldnt be truthful about graduation, or pregnancy, or her job, I mean did Cindy and George ever wonder about her lack of money?

When Caylee died, she was supposed to be at work, had she called 911 she would have had to explain immediately why she was home.... she has a weird thinking coping realization process, and this is not anything new...... there is a history of this. And anyone who knows anything about the law knows Baez can only deal with what she tells him. I think the Kronk/George stuff, is just another example of Caseys lies and desperation, and I think any juror with anyone mentally ill in their family, may have sympathy and experience with someone like her and can see the extent of this mental illness.

Had the State actually shown her on tape buying chloroform components on tape like they had her on tape with Amys checks, this would be a slam dunk case.

Something is mentally wrong with Casey, I have no doubts she blew something out of proportion. jmo

I kind of agree with Chewy. I think that casey had a plan, like a fake kidnapping and attack, like you said, or an accidental drowning, but she killed Caylee before fully figuring out how the plan would pan out, and/or, when she killed Caylee, she realized it may not work so well. So, she panicked and stuffed Caylee in the trunk.

Regarding the comment that she was supposed to be at work, well, her parents knew she really didn't work. And they sort of went a long with her b.s. about it. Also, she pretended to have flexible hours and would adapt her phony work schedule to account for not being where she was supposed to be or her need to go out. Being home after she said she was going to work would not be a problem for casey. All she had to say was, "Oh, my event got canceled so I got the day off." Being home when she was supposed to be at work was the least of casey's worries when it came to her plan.

As far as something being mentally wrong with casey, rising to the level of insanity, she has been evaluated by several psychiatrists and no one found that she is insane.

She's a sociopath, narcissist and/or borderline. She never thought anyone would get so upset by Caylee's disappearance that they would investigate so intensely and never stop looking. At least until she killed Caylee. Then she realized or feared that her mom might really freak out. But sociopaths don't feel the way others do and do not easily predict how others may react.

There is something wrong with casey, IMO, but not in the way that may be inferring. She is off, but not insane. She is personality disordered. :twocents:

 

[rachelle]

I don't think they have created reasonable doubt. I think they COULD have if they went for a theory a little more believable. To use the phrase many others have used they pretty much threw noodles (or is it spaghetti??) to the wall to see what sticks. What they presented pretty much tries to cast doubt anywhere and everywhere and unless they expect the jurors to believe it was a conspiracy on so many different levels just to frame Casey it is just not reasonable in any way.

If I was a juror what could have 'possibly' cast reasonable doubt in my mind is if they would have claimed it was a drowning, without adding the George was there part. They could have said Casey is a liar and she's not quite right in the head (which they did). They could have said the duct tape was put on after death because she freaked out and decided to make it look like a kidnapping because being the liar she is, who puts on a front to the world, couldn't have people thinking she was a negligent mother.. Again, "something isn't right with this girl." I as a juror would have believed much more if she would just have owned up to something...anything... instead of placing blame on everyone else but her. As a juror, if they didn't try to place blame everywhere except Casey it could possibly have created a reasonable doubt in my mind at least on the charge if 1st degree premeditated murder.

Yes!! Exactly!!

Why did they go this route?

From what I can remember from reading about this case is that KC really didn't like GA. IIRC, she made fun of him for not holding a steady work history and his gambling and not really being the "head" of the family.

(was that ever stated anywhere, or is that just MY take on how EVERYONE in that family kinda felt about GA?)

Anyway, is it really to be believed that if GA was involved or knew anything about a "drowning", wouldn't KC have told on him a LONG time ago to try and save her butt??

She certainly doesn't seem like she would be willing to "fall on the sword", so to speak, for GA and take all the blame for Caylee's " drowning".

Didn't the DT tell her she would probably get more sympathy if she left that part out? Or if that's what she told them happened did they HAVE to go with that because she said so?

Also that brings me to a question I've been wondering about: I wonder what the DT thinks really happened. Because if she confessed to them she did really kill Caylee, wouldn't they legally have to tell someone? Or could they just try and get her out of it any way they can?

And another thing, let's just say the GA story is true, IMO she would have said something a long time ago , kinda like "if I'm going down for this, so is he".

Sorry for going on and on lol
It's late and I'm laying here in bed and my mind is racing because I'm just ready for justice for Caylee

 

[Nova24]

I think ICA's defense wasn't just about trying to get her off but ICA wanted to look like the victim here hence George being dragged into it along with LA. She wants to be seen as the victim not her mother, father, or brother. She certainly doesn't want Caylee as the victim either because all of this takes away from Princess Casey. There was only room for 1 of them so 1 had to go. Poor baby.

 

[Dr. Know?]

No. Where's the fight between Cindy and Casey on June 15th, 2008? About money? Linda was ready and challendged the defese to it in a side bar by stating about 100 checks were written by Casey on Cindy's account... That would put most things into perspective with Casey's "theiving days", sadly not mentioned and that means the family didn't cooperate on that. That would have helped the common sense part.

Not going to say how many ways CA hurt her daughter by not doing what is right. xoxo

Justice for Caylee!

 

[Nova24]

This is an old article from when JB first took the case. He really did seem to believe her in 2008 that the baby had been kidnapped. The drowning and abuse theory clearly wasn't shared with him until after that baby was found. It would be interesting to know what JB really thinks of her deep down.

http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/16923607/detail.html

 

[2goldfish]

Okay, one more... Why go to the trouble of making chloroform when you can knock a kid out with OTC meds? Just food for thought. I like that you make me think.

that requires you to assume the child will take the meds....mine wont.

of course, there are ways to sneak them in anyways when required...we use cherry coke and crossed fingers....if there is little enough coke he tastes the meds, too much coke he wont drink it all.

I wont even try to imagine what I would do if I was attempting to medicate him for a nefarious reason as I simply would not.

 

[Nova]

Question: was CA's rumored threat to take Caylee away from KC every testified to in court? I'm wondering why the defense didn't try to get this in, since it would have served as an answer to the State's claim that KC was tired of Caylee cramping her lifestyle and simply wanted to get rid of her.

 

[PhillygirlToo]

I know I had a glass of wine tonight (I really need to get some sleep)
BUT AS I WAS READING - I was saying to myself :waitasec: when did I write this? :floorlaugh:

Yes you speak my mind so well Leomoon80.. KC is MI, and I will not believe anything different;
She deserves to be punished for Criminal Negligence but she is not evil she is sick. I totally agree with you.
I left this case last summer because it was a hanging I did not agree with.
I do hope she gets punished, but as a MI person. I do not think she is safe out in the world at large.

Being a pathological liar, selfish brat and unfeeling beatch may add up to EMOTIONAL problems, but NOT mentally ill. I think there's a difference. And there certainly IS some evil in her. She knows right from wrong. Period.

 

[Nova]

Being a pathological liar, selfish brat and unfeeling beatch may add up to EMOTIONAL problems, but NOT mentally ill. I think there's a difference. And there certainly IS some evil in her. She knows right from wrong. Period.

Most mentally ill people are not legally incompetent: they still know the difference between right and wrong. I think that is what you mean.

No one has argued that KC was mentally incompetent (legally) at the time of Caylee's death. And a panel of shrinks ruled she was mentally competent (again in legal terms) last weekend.

But it's the legal definition that is based on knowing right from wrong, not the medical definition. IF KC has been evaluated for medical mental illness, we haven't heard about it, I don't think.

 

[BuffaloChuck]

Baez made me keenly aware that this was a trial about WHO. The why's, the how's, the when's - well, Casey could answer all of that. But the WHO is the question that creates the trial, and only Casey was involved.

Unless some of her party-friends were buying xanax and anything else she'd used on Caylee. No wonder some of them have moved away!

And if I'd thought about Pre-Meditation or not, Cindy proved that SHE believed Casey premeditated murder with those searches, or else Cindy never would have needed to lie. But she did. She was convinced, so the guilty do what guilty do - lie.

 

[Lava]

I thought for a bit that someone might think there is reasonable doubt when Cindy said she found the pool ladder up and called George. But when they disproved that it all went out the window.

 

[ohiogirl]

The way we got on the subject of 'evil' is because in an earlier post, IIRC, you said that we should not look at her 31 days of behavior because it was just her immature and selfish personality shining through. [paraphrased]

And I replied that rather than being immature or selfish, I thought she was 'an evil soul.' I stick to that statement and here is why. We find ourselves watching the 'trial of the century' as it is now being called in pop culture. And the media says that she is 'the most hated mom in America.' It takes a lot to gain that notoriety. Why would she be so labeled? Something resonated in society that she would become so reviled. So in a sense it is an archetype, something bigger than her. But it is also HER, and her cold, calculated, heartlessness that people are responding to.

There are hundreds of women who kill their children every year. WHY is Casey so reviled? I think it is because she was not a crack ho, or in a drunken rage, or living on the street with no family support. She had no real excuses. She had it pretty good overall. But she wanted more and was lazy and cruel. Bad combination, imo. And I think society needs to lock her up to protect society as well. Because, imo, her parents would be next.

IMO the only reason this is being called the trial of the century and she the most hated mom in America is because of the media. If not for the webcams outside the A's home early on, no one would have been there. This case has been like an accident that you see and can't turn away from. Not because KC murdered her daughter, imo. There have been many more mothers who killed their children, more than one child, in far more heinous ways. Beatings, sexual abuse, shooting, drowning, that have not had the attention of this one. It is only because the media chose it, imo. She may be evil, but there are many, many murderers out there who definitely should be called evil. Imo, KC is spoiled, self centered and probablyl sociopathic.
If not to get their mugs on camera, why would 200 people be waiting outside the courthouse yesterday, hours after all testimony was over, in the rain,just to see the so called "rock star" attorney?
If not for the cameras and peoples' wanting their 15 min. we would not be here today. jmo and thanks for listening.

 

[Pegatha]

This is an old article from when JB first took the case. He really did seem to believe her in 2008 that the baby had been kidnapped. The drowning and abuse theory clearly wasn't shared with him until after that baby was found. It would be interesting to know what JB really thinks of her deep down.

http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/16923607/detail.html

Tim Miller was on JVM last night and he said within the first 10 minutes of being in the A's house he felt something wasn't right. And JB was there with ICA and said how they would do anything to help, except Tim Miller could not talk to his client (ICA). That does not sound like a lawyer that believes his client has told him the truth about a kidnapping. IMO

I think the defense has created doubt. Without a video or direct evidence like fingerprints there can always be doubt. But I don't think it is REASONABLE DOUBT. All the other evidence points directly to Casey and nobody else. Nothing about her entire response to this is normal and hopefully the jury will see that.

 

[MissJames]

When the State proved Cindy committed perjury the jury must be wondering why she would that if ICA was innocent.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Most mentally ill people are not legally incompetent: they still know the difference between right and wrong. I think that is what you mean.

No one has argued that KC was mentally incompetent (legally) at the time of Caylee's death. And a panel of shrinks ruled she was mentally competent (again in legal terms) last weekend.

But it's the legal definition that is based on knowing right from wrong, not the medical definition. IF KC has been evaluated for medical mental illness, we haven't heard about it, I don't think.

ICA had a Psych evaluation per order of Judge Strickland at the start of this case. The Psychiatrist found she was not suffering from any mental illness.
Recently she was evaluated by two Psychs - defense buried those reports as soon as they were available and would not let the SA have them....

 

[evergreen]

reasonable doubt differs for each member of the jury. it just takes "one" and I believe the defense "got" one.

 

[JDB]

reasonable doubt differs for each member of the jury. it just takes "one" and I believe the defense "got" one.

I agree to keep her off of Death Row but not behind Bars for 30 + years.

 

[cluciano63]

I think there must be SOME reasonable doubt going on in the jury room, just because it would not take 10 hours to agree if there wasn't.

 

[cmsg2002]

Question: was CA's rumored threat to take Caylee away from KC every testified to in court? I'm wondering why the defense didn't try to get this in, since it would have served as an answer to the State's claim that KC was tired of Caylee cramping her lifestyle and simply wanted to get rid of her.

Hi Nova!

I think Cindy had repeatedly denied this during her various depositions, and IMO, because the State was going to use much of Cindy's other testimony to support their case, they felt they didn't need this as much.