Head blow vs strangulation

[Ames]

You are comparing apples to oranges. There are different degrees of skull fractures. JobBenet would NOT have sustained an injury such as she did from a two foot fall nor would it have cracked the skull like an eggshell.

Did I SAY that she could have sustained an injury such as she did from a two foot fall? I was trying to make a point....the point being....a child's skull is THINNER and SOFTER than an adults...it doesn't take much for the skull to fracture. THUS....the reason for my pointing out that on that website, it says that a child can suffer a skull injury from as little as a two foot fall. I didn't SAY that JB suffered that sort of injury from a two foot fall. My point was to prove...as I have stated before....just HOW much thinner and softer a child's skull is, compared with that of an adult. In other words...it wouldn't take ALOT to bash a CHILD'S SKULL in.

I am comparing apples to APPLES....Apple (JB's skull) = Apple (child's skull)

 

[Credence]

Did I SAY that she could have sustained an injury such as she did from a two foot fall? I was trying to make a point....the point being....a child's skull is THINNER and SOFTER than an adults...it doesn't take much for the skull to fracture. THUS....the reason for my pointing out that on that website, it says that a child can suffer a skull injury from as little as a two foot fall. I didn't SAY that JB suffered that sort of injury from a two foot fall. My point was to prove...as I have stated before....just HOW much thinner and softer a child's skull is, compared with that of an adult. In other words...it wouldn't take ALOT to bash a CHILD'S SKULL in.

I am comparing apples to APPLES....Apple (JB's skull) = Apple (child's skull)

It is just the opposite. Due to the elasticity of a child's skull it would take more force to create the type of injury JonBenet sustainted compared to that of an adult. The blow to her head was in fact forceful enough that it created a comminuted fracture which is far different than a linear fracture sustained in a fall from a bike.



A study was conducted of 156 patients with skull fracture, 60 children (aged <14 years) and 96 adults, detected among 5,097 consecutive patients with mild head injury (Glasgow Coma Scale [GCS] score of 15–14 points) arriving at the Emergency Department of a Level I University Hospital Trauma Center during 1998. Acute intracranial injuries were defined as traumatic brain injuries identified by cranial computed tomography scan, excluding pneumocephalus.Results Compared with the children, this risk of intracranial injury was 13 times greater in the adults aged 14–54 years and 16 times greater in the over-54-year-olds. Besides age over 14 years (p<0.0001), compound skull fracture (p<0.001), and a GCS score of 14 (p<0.001) were factors significantly associated with intracranial injury in the logistic regression analysis.

Conclusions Skull fracture in mild head injury implies a greater risk of intracranial injury in adults than in children.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h64fha1l5gndlx82/

 

[Toltec]

But I like your theory about the hair dying. The police noticed a strange smell in the bathroom that morning. A smell from peroxide used in hairdying chemicals. Maybe the hairdying started in the bathroom and they needed to break because JB was feeling too hungry. Tension started to build up in the bathroom and with time running short PR may not have been too calm down there in the kitchen.[/QUOTE]


Patsy stated that she dyed her hair Christmas day. She also claimed that her shower was broken so she most likely used JonBenet's shower.

I wonder if police found the plastic bottle and gloves used to dye her hair in JonBenet's bathroom.

I don't believe Patsy attempted to color JonBenet's hair that night. She had all of Christmas morning and early afternoon to do that.

The flashlight, if anything, was used to navigate around the home and to write the ransom letter. My belief is that an enraged Patsy picked up the flashlight and struck her daughter with it.

 

[rashomon]

She was asphyxiated manually, she was whacked on the top of her head, fracturing her skull, she was whacked about the side of the head,

UKGuy,
Nowhere in the autopsy report does it say JB was asphyxiated manually. And where in the autopsy report does it say that JB was struck two times on the head?

Am I correct in assuming that these were your own inferences drawn from the autopsy report?

 

[rashomon]

I don't believe Patsy attempted to color JonBenet's hair that night. She had all of Christmas morning and early afternoon to do that.

I too don't believe that Patsy tried to color JB's hair after the Whites' Christmas party. More logical would be to have done it before the party, to show off her daughter in brilliant blonde hair there. .
Autopsy pictures seem to coroborate that her hair had already been dyed, (see the picture of the back of her neck).
An if memory serves, coroner Dr. Meyer mentioned the dyed hair too.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Nowhere in the autopsy report does it say JB was asphyxiated manually. And where in the autopsy report does it say that JB was struck two times on the head?

Am I correct in assuming that these were your own inferences drawn from the autopsy report?

rashomon,

Am I correct in assuming that these were your own inferences drawn from the autopsy report?

Well yes, I dont think Coroner Meyer states how JonBenet came to have those injuries inflicted, thats not his job.

JonBenet has a rather red compression abrasion on her neck this is typical of a manual strangulation, its seen in nearly every single case where a manual strangulation occurs.

Coroner Meyer stated in his Final Diagnosis that one cause of death was Ligature strangulation naturally this does not rule out a manual strangulation that failed, does it?

Unless JonBenet's head was bouncing about the floor like a coconut, those contusions and abrasions on the side of her head and her face had to come from somewhere, I reckon her killer possibly punched her, or used some object to deliver the blows.

So you are correct in your assumptions.


wrt JonBenet's head fracture, for all those debating the relative thickness of child to adult skull thickness etc, remember JonBenet had a DEPRESSED FRACTURE which is not your common , average fracture, its rare for a child to present with such injuries.


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[Ames]

It is just the opposite. Due to the elasticity of a child's skull it would take more force to create the type of injury JonBenet sustainted compared to that of an adult. The blow to her head was in fact forceful enough that it created a comminuted fracture which is far different than a linear fracture sustained in a fall from a bike.

Sorry, what you are saying makes absolutely NO sense. FACT: a child's skull is softer AND thinner than that of an adults, therefore making it easier than an adults, to fracture. What about this, do you not understand? Its pretty straightforward. Every single website that I have seen, or researched, has stated this FACT! And not only is it a fact...its pretty much common sense.

 

[Credence]

Sorry, what you are saying makes absolutely NO sense. FACT: a child's skull is softer AND thinner than that of an adults, therefore making it easier than an adults, to fracture. What about this, do you not understand? Its pretty straightforward. Every single website that I have seen, or researched, has stated this FACT! And not only is it a fact...its pretty much common sense.

Again you are talking about a linear fracture caused by a fall -- not a comminuted fracture caused by a blow which is why I stated you were comparing apples to oranges since we are talking about the type of head injury JONBENET sustained. She did not fall from a bicycle or hitting a tub or sink which would cause a liinear fracture not a comminuted fracture. I've copied definitiions of the different fractures. An adult's skull has more of a chance of fracturing from a BLOW (NOT A FALL) than a child who is hit with the same force. Due to this fact, the blow to JonBenet's head had to be done with extreme force which you said would not take alot (reread your post - and that is what I addressed).

The skull’s reaction to physical trauma: As stated earlier, the bones in the skull protect the brain from physical trauma by absorbing the shock from external sources. Depending on the amount of force applied to the skull, certain bone reactions will occur. The reaction of the child’s skull can be dramatically different from the fully developed adult skull. The child’s skull is more elastic, and will accept a blow without fracturing, leaving an indented point of impact instead. The adult skull, on the other hand, might actually fracture when receiving a similar blow.

Linear fractures: This fracture has been regarded as the most common type of skull fracture (70%). Simply described, a linear fracture is usually a straight line fracture, generally radiating away from the point of impact. This is caused by the “outbending” effect upon the bone at the moment of impact. Once external force is applied to the bone, the exact point of impact will depress, which will cause the surrounding bone to bend outward. In most cases, the fracture will radiate toward weaker portions of the bone . It has also been determined that fractures can be placed into their proper sequence. When bones fractures, it behaves similarly to glass. Fractures in bone will stop traveling once they encounter a pre-existing fracture. As a result, the numerous fractures which may appear on a murder victim’s skull could be placed into their proper sequence of occurrence.
Depressed fracture: The depressed skull fracture is regarded as an extremely serious injury. These fractures consist of portions of the bone being pushed into the brain tissue, or in some instances, “punched out”. An assault with a hammer may leave a depressed fracture, with an opening in the skull consistent with the diameter of the hammer. Larger depressive fractures can be obtained by using heavy larger items, such as baseball bats, stones, or similar items.
Comminuted fractures: The comminuted fracture is basically as shattering of the bone, much like a cracked eggshell. In fact, these fractures are commonly called “eggshell fractures” for this reason. They are received in the same manner as the depressed fracture. For example, repeated blows to a victim’s head with a hammer would produce a shattered skull. These fractures also cause severe injury to the brain due to the broken pieces of bone being pushed into the cranium.

 

[Tober]

All these injuries apart from the ligature, represent a catalog of violence inflicted upon JonBenet, cumulatively they cannot be the consequence of an accident or rage type assault, since her injuries are so specific, the intention was to kill JonBenet, and if a manual strangulation did not succeed then a whack on the head was added to make certain that she was dead!

Is it possible that the head blow, strangulation, and sex assault were all part of a rage attack, beginning with one and proceeding to the others?

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

JonBenet has a rather red compression abrasion on her neck this is typical of a manual strangulation, its seen in nearly every single case where a manual strangulation occurs.

Coroner Meyer stated in his Final Diagnosis that one cause of death was Ligature strangulation naturally this does not rule out a manual strangulation that failed, does it?

But wouldn't a manual strangulation of a conscious child leave marks from fingers?
Wouldn't a manual strangulation have done damage to her larynx and to her hyoid bone?

In terms of the second reddish circular mark around JB's neck below the cord:

I read something in a crime fiction book which might also explain the type of marks on JB. From Donna Leon "Fatal Remedies", p. 127 (Donna Leon is a very popular crime fiction author here in Germany).

[the victim, Mitri, has been strangled and there are two circular indentations in his neck. The coroner Dr. Rizzardi comes to the following conclusion in his report]:

"The double mark on Mitri's neck was, he had determined, a hesitation mark on the part of the murderer, who had probably loosened the cord momentarily to tighten his grip, shifting it and thus leaving a second indentation in Mitri's flesh."

Maybe something similar happened with JB? The perp tried to tighten his/her grip, loosened the cord and shifted it, and that's why there are two circular marks around JB's neck?

Or the cord could first have been pulled around JB's neck to strangle her, and afterwards the knot was tied? And as the knot was being tied, the cord was pushed upwards?

 

[UKGuy]

Is it possible that the head blow, strangulation, and sex assault were all part of a rage attack, beginning with one and proceeding to the others?

Tober,

Yes, I have already suggested this and described it as a Sexual Rage attack those familiar with the profile of sexual assaults might recognize the pattern: Sexual Advance, Victim Refusal, Sexual Assault, Physical Assault, Death of Victim, Staging.

In many cases the assailant is a relative e.g. step-parent, foster parent, father etc, and a component part of the staging is the dumping of the childs body well away from the house.


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[UKGuy]

But wouldn't a manual strangulation of a conscious child leave marks from fingers?
Wouldn't a manual strangulation have done damage to her larynx and to her hyoid bone?

In terms of the second reddish circular mark around JB's neck below the cord:

I read something in a crime fiction book which might also explain the type of marks on JB. From Donna Leon "Fatal Remedies", p. 127 (Donna Leon is a very popular crime fiction author here in Germany).

[the victim, Mitri, has been strangled and there are two circular indentations in his neck. The coroner Dr. Rizzardi comes to the following conclusion in his report]:


Maybe something similar happened with JB? The perp tried to tighten his/her grip, loosened the cord and shifted it, and that's why there are two circular marks around JB's neck?

Or the cord could first have been pulled around JB's neck to strangle her, and afterwards the knot was tied? And as the knot was being tied, the cord was pushed upwards?

rashomon,

Yes what you suggest is a valid interpretation of the evidence, and may have occurred.

imo I think the staging is misleading many people. If you look carefully at this image:

There is the appearance of two ligature furrows,

but if you then look at her neck from the rear:

There is only one ligature furrow apparent.

If you then look again at the frontal view:

You can clearly see on the left and more pronounced on the right red compression abrasions which imo result from someone manually strangling JonBenet e.g. thumb marks?

The thin nylon cord would never have left such large abrasions, this is confirmed by the absence of such abrasions along the circumference of the upper ligature furrow.

Although Coroner Meyer states Ligature strangulation as a cause of death, this does not discount manual strangulation from being an aggravating factor, or controversially that the Ligature strangulation he itemises in the autopsy report may not have been what appears in the crime-scene photographs i.e. it may be staging?

Every time I review these images I am more convinced that her injuries were not the result of any accident, she has multiple neck abrasions, multiple contusions to the sides of her head and face, and a severe depressed fracture to her skull, along with likely postmortem injuries i.e. those alleged stun-gun contusions. Postmortem contusions take on that coloring!

So it may be that her postmortem staging also included further bodily assaults?


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[tumble]

The thin nylon cord would never have left such large abrasions,
.

IMO, it could have been caused by the cord.
This big friction burn abrasion lies neatly between the two furrows indicating to me that this is caused when the cord slid from the lower furrow to the upper.

 

[UKGuy]

IMO, it could have been caused by the cord.
This big friction burn abrasion lies neatly between the two furrows indicating to me that this is caused when the cord slid from the lower furrow to the upper.

tumble,

But there is no lower furrow, those are compression abrasion marks, the cord is far too thin to cause such large abrasions, plus there are no abrasions along the circumference of the ligature furrow.

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[tumble]

UK, there are two furrows in the front IMO.
In the back there is only one, I see no contradiction here. The cord only slid in the front. If you tie a cord around a cylinder and place the loop at an ange the cord will slide up one opposite side of the force and rest when the loop lies at a right angle against the cylinder.

I don't see why the codes thickness has anything to do with the abrasion other than the cord does not break. The thickness matches the furrows. That's what important.

 

[UKGuy]

UK, there are two furrows in the front IMO.
In the back there is only one, I see no contradiction here. The cord only slid in the front. If you tie a cord around a cylinder and place the loop at an ange the cord will slide up one opposite side of the force and rest when the loop lies at a right angle against the cylinder.

I don't see why the codes thickness has anything to do with the abrasion other than the cord does not break. The thickness matches the furrows. That's what important.

tumble,

There are not two furrows at the front, there is only one, what you consider to be a lower furrow is actually the abrasions resulting from a manual strangualtion, if you look closely you will see the alleged lower furrow does not meet up at the front and has no furrow marking at the rear, that is it does not exist. If it did Coroner Meyer would have indicated this in his autopsy report.

The thickness of the nylon cord matches the one ligature furrow, but the thickness of the cord does not match any alleged abrasions beneath this furrow, even doubled up I doubt if it could inflict those abrasions, which are nearly always the result of a manual strangulation.

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[kaykay]

I would think an adult would be able to strangle a 6 year old with their hands.
It's hard to think the manual strangulation wasn't working so the perp/s took the time to find something to make a garrote to finish the job.

I have a question that maybe someone can answer.

The coloration of JB's back doesn't look like it should if she was found laying on her back. Shouldn't it be much darker?

Her face is very red, is this from the stranglation or could she have been hanging by her heels? Sorry, I know this is so horrible, it's hard to even talk about it.

I also notice the back of Jb's neck is very swollen...the size of her neck doesn't look smaller than her head.

On the front of her neck (our Left hand side) there's a group tiny little prick marks. I think someone on here said it looked like this was caused by a ring.
I tend to agree.

I've seen these picture's many times and it breaks my heart.

 

[UKGuy]

I would think an adult would be able to strangle a 6 year old with their hands.
It's hard to think the manual strangulation wasn't working so the perp/s took the time to find something to make a garrote to finish the job.

I have a question that maybe someone can answer.

The coloration of JB's back doesn't look like it should if she was found laying on her back. Shouldn't it be much darker?

Her face is very red, is this from the stranglation or could she have been hanging by her heels? Sorry, I know this is so horrible, it's hard to even talk about it.

I also notice the back of Jb's neck is very swollen...the size of her neck doesn't look smaller than her head.

On the front of her neck (our Left hand side) there's a group tiny little prick marks. I think someone on here said it looked like this was caused by a ring.
I tend to agree.

I've seen these picture's many times and it breaks my heart.

kaykay,

Strangling someone is not such an easy thing to do. Now lets assume JonBenet's asphyxiation was not planned, otherwise why would her killer conveniently have nylon cord to hand?

It has been speculated that the ligature furrow on her neck and the swelling are postmortem, this is what makes the ligature appear convincing?

Those tiny prick marks may be Petechial hemorrhages which are mentioned in the autopsy?


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[Credence]

kaykay,

Strangling someone is not such an easy thing to do. Now lets assume JonBenet's asphyxiation was not planned, otherwise why would her killer conveniently have nylon cord to hand?

It has been speculated that the ligature furrow on her neck and the swelling are postmortem, this is what makes the ligature appear convincing?

Those tiny prick marks may be Petechial hemorrhages which are mentioned in the autopsy?

Actually post-mortem "swelling" which is actually the formation of gases in the body don't usually start until 36-72 hours after death unless the body was riddled with infection or found somewhere unusually hot such as in a desert.

 

[Toltec]

Poor baby....I don't care what the Ramseys say, I would NEVER be able to move on without finding the bast**d who did this!

Notice her hair entangled in the cord? It looks like she was lying on her left side when the cord was placed on her body. The hair from the right side of her head is entangled in a way that suggests the person placed the cord around her neck while she was unconcious.

One thing is certain...JonBenet was not struggling when the cord was placed around her neck.