Henry Lee's new book, anyone?

[Nom de plume]

Incompetent in not having seen a body in the WC. If she was there he should have seen her? Assuming, again, that she was near the door where JR apparently "found" her.

So if he didn't see her, he either didn't look very carefully (incompetence - though that's harsh, and to be fair he wasn't looking for a body wrapped in a blanket) or she wasn't there.

But if she wasn't there, then others failed to find the body where it was (incompetence again). Had dogs been brought in, the body would have been found, so I don't mind calling the cops incompetent - at least the on scene commander. There's no excuse for not calling in the K9 unit, which was in fact on standby.

I don't have a problem with the idea that the body might have been moved.

Again, no reasonable person could have anticipated calling the cops and not having the body found, therefore, that was never the plan.

IF FW didn't see her. Maybe he didn't see her, or maybe he just didn't want to be the one to find her for fear of being suspected in her murder. I would find that fear to be totally reasonable.

 

[Chrishope]

IF FW didn't see her. Maybe he didn't see her, or maybe he just didn't want to be the one to find her for fear of being suspected in her murder. I would find that fear to be totally reasonable.

Good point.

 

[UKGuy]

Incompetent in not having seen a body in the WC. If she was there he should have seen her? Assuming, again, that she was near the door where JR apparently "found" her.

So if he didn't see her, he either didn't look very carefully (incompetence - though that's harsh, and to be fair he wasn't looking for a body wrapped in a blanket) or she wasn't there.

But if she wasn't there, then others failed to find the body where it was (incompetence again). Had dogs been brought in, the body would have been found, so I don't mind calling the cops incompetent - at least the on scene commander. There's no excuse for not calling in the K9 unit, which was in fact on standby.

I don't have a problem with the idea that the body might have been moved.

Again, no reasonable person could have anticipated calling the cops and not having the body found, therefore, that was never the plan.

Chrishope,
Yup, Yup, sounds like an interrupted kidnapping gone wrong? mmm your calling the cops thesis is redundant since when can you describe the R's as reasonable?

The R's were not reasonable people. Assuming RDI you must consider they hide the body and its found, but the hiding is tactical.

It works both ways the R's knew so they hid the body and expected discovery?

Except they had a staged scenario to cover discovery?



.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Yup, Yup, sounds like an interrupted kidnapping gone wrong? mmm your calling the cops thesis is redundant since when can you describe the R's as reasonable?

The R's were not reasonable people. Assuming RDI you must consider they hide the body and its found, but the hiding is tactical.

It works both ways the R's knew so they hid the body and expected discovery?

Except they had a staged scenario to cover discovery?



.

No more redundant than your theory.

On what basis did you determine the Rs are not reasonable people.? If they are trying to figure out how to avoid being charged with murder, don't they consider obvious things like the police bringing in dogs?

I've considered that they wanted the body found, and I find it very very unconvincing.

They had to expect discovery, on that we seem to agree. So, again, (sorry for the redundancy) they could not have planned to do anything with the body after calling the police. Whatever their plan was, it was not to have the police over for a few hours, then do something with the body after the police left. To call the police is to give up the body, intentionally or not.

 

[DeeDee249]

Not lucky at all. Had they done their job correctly, this crime would have most likely have been solved. There were so many errors early on.
.

THAT I can agree with. French and Arndt acted unprofessionally and their actions and inactions were irrevocably damaging to the case.

 

[UKGuy]

No more redundant than your theory.

On what basis did you determine the Rs are not reasonable people.? If they are trying to figure out how to avoid being charged with murder, don't they consider obvious things like the police bringing in dogs?

I've considered that they wanted the body found, and I find it very very unconvincing.

They had to expect discovery, on that we seem to agree. So, again, (sorry for the redundancy) they could not have planned to do anything with the body after calling the police. Whatever their plan was, it was not to have the police over for a few hours, then do something with the body after the police left. To call the police is to give up the body, intentionally or not.

Chrishope,
The R's had few options given their circumstances. So they rolled the dice on an Abduction Scenario, and it worked.

If its JDI, then he had all night to remove the body, leaving that to the morning does not make any sense.

The R's were ready to flee interstate by plane early that morning, so it looks to me as if they fully intended leaving JonBenet's corpse in the house!

The R's game plan appears to be: Hide JonBenet out of sight, dial 911 claiming she has been abducted. Then at the first opportunity flee Boulder.

With this avenue of escape denied JR patently waited for JonBenet to be found. For all we know she may not have been in the wine-cellar JR might have moved her there? Whatever transpired JR decided to discover JonBenet. JR seems to have behaved pragmatically all morning.


.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
The R's had few options given their circumstances. So they rolled the dice on an Abduction Scenario, and it worked.

Except that there was no abduction. Something worked, no doubt about that, but it's very questionable that the "abduction w/o an abduction" scenario worked. It's very questionable that it was their plan.

If its JDI, then he had all night to remove the body, leaving that to the morning does not make any sense.

Leaving the body until the next day makes more sense than trying to dump it in the middle of the night. What if neighbors saw the car leaving, and coming back, 2 hours later?

The R's were ready to flee interstate by plane early that morning, so it looks to me as if they fully intended leaving JonBenet's corpse in the house!

To be found by whom? And to be blamed on whom? You figure they were going to start a new life in Costa Rica?

The R's game plan appears to be: Hide JonBenet out of sight, dial 911 claiming she has been abducted. Then at the first opportunity flee Boulder.

Probably not, since calling the police would almost certainly mean the body is discovered. No person of average intelligence could have failed to anticipate dogs, and competent searching. There's almost no chance that such a plan could succeed, so there's almost no chance that was the plan. Once the body is found, the Rs wouldn't be allowed to travel.

With this avenue of escape denied JR patently waited for JonBenet to be found. For all we know she may not have been in the wine-cellar JR might have moved her there? Whatever transpired JR decided to discover JonBenet. JR seems to have behaved pragmatically all morning.


.

He may have moved the body, especially if it had been hidden well (say the crawl space) which would account for FW not seeing the body.

 

[Roy23]

There could not have been any reasonable expectation of LE visiting the house and leaving w/o finding the body.

If the body was moved from deep in the WC to a point closer to the door, we have FW's incompetent search, which could not be counted upon.

If the body were moved from somewhere else in the basement to the WC, we have incompetent searching by the police, which also couldn't be counted upon (even with BPD)

Any rational person would have anticipated dogs being brought in early on.

There is simply no way that there was ever a plan to dump the body after called LE and waiting for them to leave w/o finding the body.

Absolutely. This is common sense.

 

[gramcracker]

I have experience with 911 hang-ups. My sister is a developmentally disabled adult and she has done that while living with me, which I found out about when 911 called the house. Each time I explained the situation but they always sent an officer who entered the house and spoke to everyone and determined to his satisfaction that it was a mischief call. One asked if he could walk through the house to see if someone else was in need or danger. It ticked me off because he had a crappy attitude and it felt like a power play but I said OK. The same procedure was always followed when my sister did it while living with our mother in another state. We were never allowed to explain things through the screen door, let alone an intercom.

I think the R's sense of entitlement was emboldened by how LE acted after the 911 hang-up on the 23rd, when the dispatcher logging the hang-up called their number, got no response/only voice mail and dispatched an officer. Who was denied entry and was communicated with via intercom by someone other than the homeowner, and then left.

The Rs expected and were accustomed to receiving special treatment. The events on the 23rd are not comparable in gravity to those on the 26th but their innate entitlement lulled them into anticipating a similar outcome. I think they had every intention of putting on a show when LE arrived and then getting on with their day. They fully intended to fly out of town because of previous plans, including a business meeting. A. Business. Meeting. They expected to be allowed to do so. This was their mindset on the day of their daughter's demise. JR did not cancel their flight of his own volition. I will use the word reasonable instead of rational. Reasonable people would expect or ask for K-9s to be used but the Rs were not reasonable people. They considered themselves to be entitled to special treatment, which the 911 call on the 23rd reinforced. I think he/they were SHOCKED into realizing that he/they would have to produce JonBenet's body.

 

[UKGuy]

I have experience with 911 hang-ups. My sister is a developmentally disabled adult and she has done that while living with me, which I found out about when 911 called the house. Each time I explained the situation but they always sent an officer who entered the house and spoke to everyone and determined to his satisfaction that it was a mischief call. One asked if he could walk through the house to see if someone else was in need or danger. It ticked me off because he had a crappy attitude and it felt like a power play but I said OK. The same procedure was always followed when my sister did it while living with our mother in another state. We were never allowed to explain things through the screen door, let alone an intercom.

I think the R's sense of entitlement was emboldened by how LE acted after the 911 hang-up on the 23rd, when the dispatcher logging the hang-up called their number, got no response/only voice mail and dispatched an officer. Who was denied entry and was communicated with via intercom by someone other than the homeowner, and then left.

The Rs expected and were accustomed to receiving special treatment. The events on the 23rd are not comparable in gravity to those on the 26th but their innate entitlement lulled them into anticipating a similar outcome. I think they had every intention of putting on a show when LE arrived and then getting on with their day. They fully intended to fly out of town because of previous plans, including a business meeting. A. Business. Meeting. They expected to be allowed to do so. This was their mindset on the day of their daughter's demise. JR did not cancel their flight of his own volition. I will use the word reasonable instead of rational. Reasonable people would expect or ask for K-9s to be used but the Rs were not reasonable people. They considered themselves to be entitled to special treatment, which the 911 call on the 23rd reinforced. I think he/they were SHOCKED into realizing that he/they would have to produce JonBenet's body.

gramcracker,
Interesting thoughts. I reckon there is a link between events on the 23rd and those on the 25th. Both are parties, and in both JonBenet voices self-image issues.

Does John discovering JonBenet suggest he had no backup plan? Was it as simple as Lets leave town, asap?

The R's game plan was to hide JonBenet away and claim she had been kidnapped, then he and Patsy would flee Colorado ASAP.

The R's could not predict how inept the BPD would be, although calling the friends over certainly tipped the scales in their favor.

.

 

[Chrishope]

gramcracker,
Interesting thoughts. I reckon there is a link between events on the 23rd and those on the 25th. Both are parties, and in both JonBenet voices self-image issues.

Does John discovering JonBenet suggest he had no backup plan? Was it as simple as Lets leave town, asap?

The R's game plan was to hide JonBenet away and claim she had been kidnapped, then he and Patsy would flee Colorado ASAP.

The R's could not predict how inept the BPD would be, although calling the friends over certainly tipped the scales in their favor.

.

Very unlikely. If the Rs planned to flee CO asap why the 911 call?

They could have had several hours head start by leaving w/o calling 911 first.

As noted in a prior post calling 911 makes finding the body a near certainty (because, as you say, they could not predict how inept BPD would be -they'd have had to assume basic competency) thus halting any travel plans.

 

[redheadedgal]

The R's game plan was to hide JonBenet away and claim she had been kidnapped, then he and Patsy would flee Colorado ASAP.

if this was the plan, how would they explain leaving without jonbenet?

your daughter is "kidnapped" and you leave town?

 

[Chrishope]

I have experience with 911 hang-ups. My sister is a developmentally disabled adult and she has done that while living with me, which I found out about when 911 called the house. Each time I explained the situation but they always sent an officer who entered the house and spoke to everyone and determined to his satisfaction that it was a mischief call. One asked if he could walk through the house to see if someone else was in need or danger. It ticked me off because he had a crappy attitude and it felt like a power play but I said OK. The same procedure was always followed when my sister did it while living with our mother in another state. We were never allowed to explain things through the screen door, let alone an intercom.

BPD didn't seem to operate the way most police forces do.

I think the R's sense of entitlement was emboldened by how LE acted after the 911 hang-up on the 23rd, when the dispatcher logging the hang-up called their number, got no response/only voice mail and dispatched an officer. Who was denied entry and was communicated with via intercom by someone other than the homeowner, and then left.

The Rs expected and were accustomed to receiving special treatment. The events on the 23rd are not comparable in gravity to those on the 26th but their innate entitlement lulled them into anticipating a similar outcome.

The Rs (one or both) called the police to the house. They invited them in and showed them a RN. They certainly had to expect police to launch a kidnapping investigation. IMO, sense of entitlement or not, they were rational enough to realize a kidnapping investigation would include the FBI, and probably the use of dogs, as well as thorough searching. IOWs they had to anticipate the body would be found.

I think they had every intention of putting on a show when LE arrived and then getting on with their day. They fully intended to fly out of town because of previous plans, including a business meeting. A. Business. Meeting. They expected to be allowed to do so. This was their mindset on the day of their daughter's demise. JR did not cancel their flight of his own volition. I will use the word reasonable instead of rational. Reasonable people would expect or ask for K-9s to be used but the Rs were not reasonable people. They considered themselves to be entitled to special treatment, which the 911 call on the 23rd reinforced. I think he/they were SHOCKED into realizing that he/they would have to produce JonBenet's body.

I can't see that a sense of entitlement would make them blind to the likelihood of a K9 unit coming to the house. How would they expect to dissuade the police from bringing the dogs in? How would they dissuade the police from searching the house? How would they prevent friends from searching?

To call 911 is to offer up the body. Sense of entitlement or no, they had to realize they were going to give up the body.

As others have noted, JR was pragmatic.


The ineptness of the BPD does make it seem as though there was a chance to call 911 and expect the cops to leave w/o the body. It hard to fathom why they took 7 hours and she still had to be "found" by JR. It's hard to fathom why the K9 unit, on standby, was not called in. But JR could not have predicted or counted upon BPD being inept. They had to expect the body to be found, and they had to expect that to happen sooner, rather than later. We shouldn't work backwards from police ineptitude to a plan that relies on police ineptitude.

 

[UKGuy]

Very unlikely. If the Rs planned to flee CO asap why the 911 call?

They could have had several hours head start by leaving w/o calling 911 first.

As noted in a prior post calling 911 makes finding the body a near certainty (because, as you say, they could not predict how inept BPD would be -they'd have had to assume basic competency) thus halting any travel plans.

Chrishope,
Unlikely as it seems, this is what the R's intended to do. We can speculate as to why they never fulfilled all points.

Basically what you are suggesting is that dialling 911 meant the R's should have offered their wrists horizontally, to the BPD, to be cuffed.

Consider what might have taken place if Fleet White had found JonBenet early that morning. What might have changed, would BR have been relocated, would her body be moved upstairs?

The plan to flee assumes the R's can walk out of the house, leaving JonBenet behind, once the plane is denied, JR decides to find JonBenet. In both the latter cases the R's are acting as innocent agents. Leaving without a 911 call makes them immediate suspects evading justice and prime suspects in the homicide of JonBenet.

Even in the event that the BPD find JonBenet right away, e.g. Officer French, the R's will still claim she was kidnapped, and as due process kicks in the BPD are up against the Ramsey legal team. Who will demand their presence at interviews, bail for the parents etc.

With 20/20 hindsight you might consider the 911 call a bad tactic, or an unplanned event. It has the consequence of validating the disappearance of JonBenet as that of an abduction, affording the R's valuable time to have their friends over and trash any evidence.

.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Unlikely as it seems, this is what the R's intended to do. We can speculate as to why they never fulfilled all points.

Basically what you are suggesting is that dialling 911 meant the R's should have offered their wrists horizontally, to the BPD, to be cuffed.

Exactly, which is why I find it so unlikely that calling with a body in the house was part of a plan.

Consider what might have taken place if Fleet White had found JonBenet early that morning. What might have changed, would BR have been relocated, would her body be moved upstairs?

The plan to flee assumes the R's can walk out of the house, leaving JonBenet behind, once the plane is denied, JR decides to find JonBenet. In both the latter cases the R's are acting as innocent agents. Leaving without a 911 call makes them immediate suspects evading justice and prime suspects in the homicide of JonBenet.


.

The body is found at 1:05pm. John calls his pilot about 1:30pm to arrange a flight. The plane is denied at that time. So, "finding" the body could not have been a response to being denied his travel plans.

Again, it is simply absurd for them to have thought that they would call 911 but the body would remain hidden in the house (in whatever location).

Even in the event that the BPD find JonBenet right away, e.g. Officer French, the R's will still claim she was kidnapped, and as due process kicks in the BPD are up against the Ramsey legal team. Who will demand their presence at interviews, bail for the parents etc.

They can claim anything they want, but once the body is found it's quite evident there was no kidnapping.

They always had DP and the advice of attorneys going for them, and that would be true under any scenario.

With 20/20 hindsight you might consider the 911 call a bad tactic, or an unplanned event. It has the consequence of validating the disappearance of JonBenet as that of an abduction, affording the R's valuable time to have their friends over and trash any evidence.

It only validates her disappearance until the body is found.

It does give time to contaminate the crime scene.

 

[redheadedgal]

Originally Posted by 2 percent

Then I read the last paragraph of Famous Crimes Revisited <--- Henry Lee's book

"But one thing is clear to me: Alex Hunter has carried a heavy cross from the outset, and he had the courage not to push the Grand Jury for an indictment. And why? Lack of sufficient evidence. He is an honest and fair gentleman - a truth seeker who is know for thoughtful deliberation.

focusing on this part of the quote, Sounds to me like he agrees with AH and how he decided to not charge the R's based on the GJ..

It corroborates what I have been saying. Something was wrong with that indictment and AH knew it. He knew that something was hinky.

yet,

I still don't put a lot of stock in books written about cases. It just is one persons opinion on what they think.

To me writing books in the subject negates your credibility with me.

funny how opinions change when something helps one's pov...

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Originally Posted by 2 percent

Then I read the last paragraph of Famous Crimes Revisited <--- Henry Lee's book

"But one thing is clear to me: Alex Hunter has carried a heavy cross from the outset, and he had the courage not to push the Grand Jury for an indictment. And why? Lack of sufficient evidence. He is an honest and fair gentleman - a truth seeker who is know for thoughtful deliberation.





yet,





funny how opinions change when something helps one's pov...

My opinion has not changed. HL's comment is just that. A comment. His thoughts on how AH handled it. Not a theory, not a speculation about the crime but his comments about How AH handled it.

IM sure I could find that elsewhere also.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Not lucky at all. Had they done their job correctly, this crime would have most likely have been solved. There were so many errors early on.

I think one of the reason the R's have been so vilified is because the police made such a mess of it.

Had this crime been solved in a timely manner, Patsy would have died in prison. And likely John would still be serving his life sentence.

Money talks, though.

 

[UKGuy]

Exactly, which is why I find it so unlikely that calling with a body in the house was part of a plan.




The body is found at 1:05pm. John calls his pilot about 1:30pm to arrange a flight. The plane is denied at that time. So, "finding" the body could not have been a response to being denied his travel plans.

Again, it is simply absurd for them to have thought that they would call 911 but the body would remain hidden in the house (in whatever location).

They can claim anything they want, but once the body is found it's quite evident there was no kidnapping.

They always had DP and the advice of attorneys going for them, and that would be true under any scenario.

It only validates her disappearance until the body is found.

It does give time to contaminate the crime scene.

Chrishope,
If you listen to the Kolar interviews you will hear him voice the opinion that someone took an alive and breathing JonBenet down to the basement, and since she is not of consenting age, this act constitutes Abduction or a Kidnapping.

Similarly in the UK children removed from a place of safety by any unauthorized person usually results in Abduction charges for that person. This includes close relatives, .i.e estranged fathers or mothers.


On the morning of the 26th the R's appeared to be operating on a wing and a prayer, with their sense of entitlement enabling them to pull off presenting JonBenet as being kidnapped by a Foreign Faction!


.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Had this crime been solved in a timely manner, Patsy would have died in prison. And likely John would still be serving his life sentence.

Money talks, though.

Opinion.

There is nothing that says that PR killed her dd. Nothing. Nothing that she stood by and let it happen nor knew it happened until jbr was brought up from the basement.

There is no evidence that JR did this either.

If the police had done their job correctly and investigated correctly, Most likely there would be someone in jail but it would not be the R's. That is my opinion but one supported by DNA.