I think it's a great idea.
HODGE-PODGE - LISK-related
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I think it's a great idea.
Armchair-reader
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Windsor a cadaver dog could tell
Holly Gothlightly
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Just another article about why these crimes stayed unreported for so long. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/08/nyregion/08bodies.html
Holly Gothlightly
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Many serial killers suffered a closed-head injury at some point in their life. John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy.
Holly Gothlightly
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There have been so many cases of dismembered sex workers in the 90s-early 2000s and I cannot help but wonder if they are related. It is a peculiar MO. I know that is part of the reason police are not linking John Bittrolff to LISK because he savagely beat his victims to death (exposing their brains), left semen inside them and posed them. Almost a pure rage thing. Diffferent from dismemberment or strangling and wrapping in burlap. I guess what makes it unlikely that LISK is related to the other dismemberments around the country is that LISK was so familiar with the south shores of Long Island. Unless he started there and moved out of the area.
Do you have a source to that info regarding COD and semen left inside the body?
Okay, then has Law Enforcement had a cadaver dog go through Joseph Brewer's house? I believe they checked his vehicle sometime after Shannan disappeared, did they search his house and with what level of intensity?
Based on comments by others regarding the possible involvement of local LE in this case, I have a feeling that only the most cursory examination of Brewer's house and property was done.
I would love it if somebody who has access to the investigation could say that a very thorough forensic investigation was done of Brewer's property, including cadaver dogs.
Unfortunately it might be too late do to the time past for the dogs to discover anything at this date.
Armchair-reader
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Windsor..I don't have much knowledge in how far that investigation went but I have a feeling it didn't go as far as it should have. I say bring the dogs in.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html
Nevermind, found it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/nyregion/two-decades-later-suspect-is-arrested-in-killing-of-2-women.html?_r=0
Sorry this post is going to be a bit morbid, all my opinions
However, I know I've said this before, however for me suspect number one for all the dismemberments has to be JB. Now we have an MO which shows beating and strangulation on both Rita and Colleen, coupled with the MO of staging the bodies.
For me a couple of things could have changed so that later victims were discarded differently.
1 - He could have been annoyed that the bodies were being found and identified so quickly.
2 - He had a family, which if I'm not mistaken started around 1995-1996 (for when he found out his partner was pregnant).
This meant that his MO and frequency could have changed, however the staging of the torsos remained for JD6 and JT, while Peaches was found in a container (torso). Someone will need to let me know when he moved in with his wife, I'm leaping to an assumption that he could have been free to roam in late 1993 early 1994 before he was tied down with family duties.
It's more of a logical step to go from an MO of beating to the point where brain tissue is exposed, to partial dismemberment. Than it is regressing in the violence (accepting the fact that some SK do regress slightly, I don't recall any that have gone so far backwards on a spectrum). I'm also wondering whether he was thinking perhaps leaving semen and or bludgeoning was too risky after 1994, after all, presumably it would have left blood on his clothes (dismemberment would too, but if occurred after death he could have worn protective clothing etc). This is learning from his previous mistakes. Also it'd make sense if Peaches and Cherries belonged to the same killer as JT, why he'd go as far as disfiguring the tattoo.
It was also noted the same article of clothing was missing from the suspects, was it ever confirmed what it was?
Now according to another article Rita was last seen hitchhiking - There has also been been a suggestion on JD3 that a 'potential' match was known to hitchhike and was looking to get to Oswega potentially by hitchhiking (which someone suggested is in Babylon NY?). I believe there is a large rabbit hole here, one that should be explored to the fullest and someone needs to connect the dots.
http://riverheadnewsreview.timesrev...orville-man-charged-in-two-cold-case-murders/
I also believe LE are playing it ultra safe with JB to get a conviction, they know they have him in a noose with the 2 (possibly 3) they can 'prove'. By adding additional bodies, it not only gives JB more time to build any potential defence, but if just 1 of the victims wasn't due to him, and he had a rock solid alibi, then it'd throw doubt into any juries mind about the rest of the victims. Any additional victim would put more doubt into a juries mind.
As always JMO
Armchair-reader
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He could have gone from unorganized killing to organized killing from the psychological changes of starting a family. And sure picking up a transvestite when he is in the mental zone for killing could piss him off to the point of anything like regression. Is that what your saying Nomad?
It is, i'm going with a theory that he is a curb crawler, an opportunist if you will, who will pick up girls who are willing to get into his vehicle from hitchhikers through to prostitutes. That's why I believe LISK and MB are different people.
However, he was learning, evolving back in the 90s, like you say from unorganised to organised, also learning what was being reported in the MSM and how to be more careful in the future.
However, picking up a dude wasn't part of the plan. He was pissed off at his own sloppiness. I maintain, he could have simply let Asian Male go, but he didn't, he didn't want to take that risk. But organised killing and dismemberment wouldn't do for Asian Male - to me it seems like a brutal murder which has similarities to Rita/Colleen minus the sexual element. Why, because it's a man.
I don't buy into the theory he intentionally picked up a transvestite, I simply think it was an error, hence the change of MO (or revert back to a previous MO if I'm right).
Armchair-reader
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I totally agree with you on that. He thought he was picking up a female. I also agree that's why he beat Asian male to death the way he did. He he was shocked and totally lost control. He wouldn't have got the sexual gratification of dismembering a male. So yeah to him a whole night wasted. I'm seeing where you are going with this.
No it's not
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Kinda reminds me of JB supposedly getting mad at SG asking him, if he had' hired a transvestite before' or something like that..
-Nin
PLEASE READI am not LISK or The Manorville Butcher or any other serial killer. I was just a Websleuther with local knowledge who(just like many other Members here) was enjoying discussing this case.
The moderators and the owner of this website know my real name, my real email, my real employer and my real address/contact info. Do you really, really think that I would supply all of this information and write over 1,000 posts over several years if I was truly a serial killer???
Well it has come to my attention from someone who has the same name as me that members here continue to sleuth me & even have me pegged as their poi. Unreal. Yes I am a local. Yes I once frequented through oak beach Inn, yes I once had a boat that I kept in Babylon, yes I once created an account & posted one question on the U.G. website while investigating another case, yes I was the first member here to post suspicions that maybe Gilgo & Manorville were connected (before DNA tests were released), yes I owned a pickup truck, yes I visited the Long Island Aquarium in my lifetime, yes I've gone crabbing & snapper fishing at oak beach, yes I've anchored up at hemlock cove, yes I've used the transient boat slips at Cedar beach marina, yes I've gone hunting and camping in Manorville, yes i enjoyed discussing this case, yes i enjoyed helping research old cold cases that could possibly be related, yes i might not have always agreed with some of the theories that have been discussed. yes, yes ,yes!! But please do realize that none of that makes me a serial killer.
The moderators and the owner of this website know my real name, my real email, my real employer and my real address/contact info. Do you really, really think that I would supply all of this information and write over 1,000 posts over several years if I was truly a serial killer???
Well it has come to my attention from someone who has the same name as me that members here continue to sleuth me & even have me pegged as their poi. Unreal. Yes I am a local. Yes I once frequented through oak beach Inn, yes I once had a boat that I kept in Babylon, yes I once created an account & posted one question on the U.G. website while investigating another case, yes I was the first member here to post suspicions that maybe Gilgo & Manorville were connected (before DNA tests were released), yes I owned a pickup truck, yes I visited the Long Island Aquarium in my lifetime, yes I've gone crabbing & snapper fishing at oak beach, yes I've anchored up at hemlock cove, yes I've used the transient boat slips at Cedar beach marina, yes I've gone hunting and camping in Manorville, yes i enjoyed discussing this case, yes i enjoyed helping research old cold cases that could possibly be related, yes i might not have always agreed with some of the theories that have been discussed. yes, yes ,yes!! But please do realize that none of that makes me a serial killer.
Armchair-reader
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Strangely enough I was just reading old post about White and JT and thought to myself dam there are some smart sleuthers here. I closed out that thread and came here and saw this post. Nope don't think you are LISK or a SK just a very smart sleuther as I thought before. Please keep going.
New to these boards, and just recently have been catching up. Sorry if some of this has bee mentioned, commented on, or already answered; but I'm just being curious. I'm definitely an analytics type person, and have been using excel since it first came out; so I use it a lot to break down large amounts of info. So, the only way I could ingest so much (not even all) info related to LISK was to put it in a spreadsheet. Now I want to clean it up a bit.
1. Seems that LISK is possibly related to activity from 1996 (Fire Island Jane Doe)-1997; 2000; 2003; 2007-2010; and 2013 (pig necklace victim). Generally sounds right?
2. The LISK connection to holiday periods seems like more than a coincidence; possibly being a pattern. I know it has been discussed as maybe someone who visits during holidays. It seems to me that it has more to do with a local (Long Island or very close) that has time off from work. Starting with Easter Sunday in 1996 with the April 1996 discovery of the legs in a plastic bag; Fathers Day 1997 (kind of a stretch I know) and the discovery of a human torso (Jane Doe Peaches) about two weeks later; Veterans Day 11/11/2000 with the discovery of of Human Torso (Jane Doe #6) on 11/19/2000; July 4th 2003 and the disappearance and discovery of Jessica Taylor a few weeks later; July 4th 2007 with the disappearance of Maureen Brainard-Barnes 5 days later; Fathers Day 2008 (a stretch as a holiday and possible victim) with disappearance of Tanya Rush twelve days later and her dismembered body found a day later; July 4th 2009 with the disappearance of Melissa Barthelemy a week later; and Labor Day 2010 with the disappearance of Amber Lynn Costello four days prior. Maybe a coincidence, but looks more like a pattern. The holidays outside of the summer periods (thinking May-August) seem to indicate that this is more likely a local/close to local person instead of a seasonal person. IMHO
3. The time periods of being "active" seem to resemble other SK who have pauses between their "active" periods. Looking at dates I have, I would say LISK has been "in-active" in four periods of around three to almost four years each. 4/20/1996 (Fire Island Jane Doe) -06/281997 (Jane doe Peaches), 11/19/200 (Jane doe #6), 07/21/2003 (Jessica Taylor), 03/03/2007 (Jane Doe Cherries)-09/02/2010 (Amber Lynn Costello disappears), and maybe 01/21/2013 (victim with gold pig necklace). Possibly the active/in-active periods have to do with the victims being found, and LISK stopping while the heat is on. Also, the amount of time is able to wait till he needs to kill again seems to be a 2-4 year period. Again IMHO
All I got for now.
1. Seems that LISK is possibly related to activity from 1996 (Fire Island Jane Doe)-1997; 2000; 2003; 2007-2010; and 2013 (pig necklace victim). Generally sounds right?
2. The LISK connection to holiday periods seems like more than a coincidence; possibly being a pattern. I know it has been discussed as maybe someone who visits during holidays. It seems to me that it has more to do with a local (Long Island or very close) that has time off from work. Starting with Easter Sunday in 1996 with the April 1996 discovery of the legs in a plastic bag; Fathers Day 1997 (kind of a stretch I know) and the discovery of a human torso (Jane Doe Peaches) about two weeks later; Veterans Day 11/11/2000 with the discovery of of Human Torso (Jane Doe #6) on 11/19/2000; July 4th 2003 and the disappearance and discovery of Jessica Taylor a few weeks later; July 4th 2007 with the disappearance of Maureen Brainard-Barnes 5 days later; Fathers Day 2008 (a stretch as a holiday and possible victim) with disappearance of Tanya Rush twelve days later and her dismembered body found a day later; July 4th 2009 with the disappearance of Melissa Barthelemy a week later; and Labor Day 2010 with the disappearance of Amber Lynn Costello four days prior. Maybe a coincidence, but looks more like a pattern. The holidays outside of the summer periods (thinking May-August) seem to indicate that this is more likely a local/close to local person instead of a seasonal person. IMHO
3. The time periods of being "active" seem to resemble other SK who have pauses between their "active" periods. Looking at dates I have, I would say LISK has been "in-active" in four periods of around three to almost four years each. 4/20/1996 (Fire Island Jane Doe) -06/281997 (Jane doe Peaches), 11/19/200 (Jane doe #6), 07/21/2003 (Jessica Taylor), 03/03/2007 (Jane Doe Cherries)-09/02/2010 (Amber Lynn Costello disappears), and maybe 01/21/2013 (victim with gold pig necklace). Possibly the active/in-active periods have to do with the victims being found, and LISK stopping while the heat is on. Also, the amount of time is able to wait till he needs to kill again seems to be a 2-4 year period. Again IMHO
All I got for now.
Welcome rer, theres lots of information, but lots of people will have different angles on whether its one, two or possibly more killers. Some people will think its lone wolves, while others will think its a team.
I'm also an excel whizz, I started to plot the names, ages etc. It all depends on how deep you believe the rabbit hole goes, and how many killers you believe there may be.
Everyone has a whodunnit theory, so don't be put off by people querying your thoughts, everyone wants the same goal at the end of the day.
Personally, I believe there is more than one killer, and that the GB4 are unrelated to earlier corpses in the area. I'm undecided on N Jugo, she may be a victim of LISK.
I also believe our story for the manorville victims may go as far back as 1985, there are plenty of gaps though which need to be filled in and i'm absorbing all the information I can find.
Enjoy the sleuthing.
Thank you Nomad.
I am definitely open to the possibility of these being multiple SK. That geographic location just seems to be a magnet for it. I know some (ex-LE for example) say it's just Long Island area is no worse or better than other parts of the country for SK activity. It just seems like the area is a perfect storm for it. High density populations to hide in, nearby coastal areas and barren areas for disposal, and a high density of viable targets due to the high volume of prostitution. I can see how someone that wants to do these things can feel like they blend in, and are able to easily pick who they want to prey on. I also think it hasn't helped that the clearance rate (via Murder Accountability Project) during the past few decades in Suffolk/Nassau Co's has been pretty low compared to the rest of the country. Even compared to the rest of NY state. Not sure if it's due to LE issues, the volume of SK activity, or both?
I am definitely open to the possibility of these being multiple SK. That geographic location just seems to be a magnet for it. I know some (ex-LE for example) say it's just Long Island area is no worse or better than other parts of the country for SK activity. It just seems like the area is a perfect storm for it. High density populations to hide in, nearby coastal areas and barren areas for disposal, and a high density of viable targets due to the high volume of prostitution. I can see how someone that wants to do these things can feel like they blend in, and are able to easily pick who they want to prey on. I also think it hasn't helped that the clearance rate (via Murder Accountability Project) during the past few decades in Suffolk/Nassau Co's has been pretty low compared to the rest of the country. Even compared to the rest of NY state. Not sure if it's due to LE issues, the volume of SK activity, or both?
Armchair-reader
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I've been set on it being just one killer but keep an open mind and take everyone's thoughts and ideas into consideration which led me to an idea. Can it be a SK plus student doing this? How much of a long shot would that be? One is really into dismemberment the other not. Mixing things things up a bit. It's an idea so please pick it apart. I really want your take on things.