Hotel Cecil Rooftop Access Discussion

[AlphaWolf]

Just to clarify, I'm not arguing that someone carried EL up either the wooden ladder propped against the cistern or the ladder that goes up the front of the service room. From the Youtube video I reposted, it appears that the video maker is implying that it is quite difficult to carry a dummy (probably similar to dead weight) of 90lbs (ie: 25lbs less than EL's weight) up a short ladder, and it was impossible to carry up the tall vertical ladder (for the re-enacted 6' 200lbs perp.)

Given the amount of information I've seen so far, I'm still open to a good number of the possibilities that have been presented, such as EL going in herself (voluntarily or coerced), someone carrying her (conscious or unconscious), or two or more people carrying her (conscious or unconscious.)

I think until we get more concrete evidence, we're left to being open minded and thinking through different scenarios and possibilities. eg: if X were to have been the situation, then A, B, C, etc. would have needed to happen.

Good day samevo8!

I made the video and you are correct.

- the 90lbs dummy was very hard to get up on the shoulder and thus cary up a ladder.


- the 8' ladder ( at a slight angle....while still very difficult) I was able to get 2 steps up and balance myself ( wishing there was a copper pipe to grab ....like the one on the water tank)

even on the 8' ladder I probably couldn't climb more then 3 or 4 steps without dropping the dummy.( needed something to hold on too)

- the fixed wall ladder was impossibble ( for me) beyond 2 rungs ( had to drop the dummy before i fell)....it's vertical straight up and down.....the body is also in the way.....you can only use 1 arm.....nowhere to lean/rest

- beyond fabricating a system with ropes/packs etc...IMO I don't know how 1 average person could carry her body up that 14' - 20' wall ladder.

( I climb ladders often....I'm not in GREAT shape by any means....but I'm not outta shape either...probably just an average guy)

thanks for the imput.

 

[samevo8]

Great job, AlphaWolf! I'm impressed with the amount of set up and work you put into recreating the video. If you make more videos on this matter, let me know. Thanks.

Good day samevo8!

I made the video and you are correct.

- the 90lbs dummy was very hard to get up on the shoulder and thus cary up a ladder.


- the 8' ladder ( at a slight angle....while still very difficult) I was able to get 2 steps up and balance myself ( wishing there was a copper pipe to grab ....like the one on the water tank)

even on the 8' ladder I probably couldn't climb more then 3 or 4 steps without dropping the dummy.( needed something to hold on too)

- the fixed wall ladder was impossibble ( for me) beyond 2 rungs ( had to drop the dummy before i fell)....it's vertical straight up and down.....the body is also in the way.....you can only use 1 arm.....nowhere to lean/rest

- beyond fabricating a system with ropes/packs etc...IMO I don't know how 1 average person could carry her body up that 14' - 20' wall ladder.

( I climb ladders often....I'm not in GREAT shape by any means....but I'm not outta shape either...probably just an average guy)

thanks for the imput.

 

[MesaVerde]

Great job, AlphaWolf! I'm impressed with the amount of set up and work you put into recreating the video.

I am, too. Incredible. He must be a hard worker.

 

[sugarpooper]

The chinese media took pictures of all the graffiti up there. One of "taggings" is dated 2013, This means a group of hoodlums were up there during the month of January, I think it is pretty safe to assume at this point that anyone with the willingness to want to climb up there can.

http://img3.laibafile.cn/p/m/134571607.jpg

http://img3.laibafile.cn/p/m/134571586.jpg

MISK with a heart next to it, That is more than likely a girl. It is practically unknown for a male graffiti writer to put a heart next to his name. Misk with a heart is also amoung the list of the 2013 tagging. Long story short, This graffiti tells us atleast one girl was up there during the month of January.

 

[samevo8]

In one of the Chinese videos, the narrator and his/her friend "Brandon" shows how easy it is to get access to the roof via the fire escape. One way would be to go up to the 15th floor, go to the end of the hall, open the unsecured window to the fire escape, and climb up the fire escape ladder. Apparently all you need is some level of guts to get up there.

The chinese media took pictures of all the graffiti up there. One of "taggings" is dated 2013, This means a group of hoodlums were up there during the month of January, I think it is pretty safe to assume at this point that anyone with the willingness to want to climb up there can.

http://img3.laibafile.cn/p/m/134571607.jpg

http://img3.laibafile.cn/p/m/134571586.jpg

 

[four_seasons]

I think so.....( i'm still trying to process all the photo/videos on the net)

I believe some people took photos of the sairway roof access and it led to that door.

reading some of the police reports....It was supposed to be a secured/alarmed door ( not sure if it was locked though)

i believe i read one of the posts by the chinese group that they tried the door it was locked.

 

[Sillybilly]

It would be nice to have somebody actually go in that lower room and look around, take pics. The only pic we have they sort of stuck the camera close to the opening and clicked

This is what they had to say about the lower room:

From:
[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8947502&postcount=1283"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3[/ame]

3. The loft/attic up on the roof is for elevator equipment and storage. It has 2 levels within it - upper and lower level. The upper level of this room is locked - the sound of machine humming can be heard coming from it. This is for the machinery. The lower level of the loft/attic is not locked - very dark inside with no light - there is a large ventilation pipe inside. On the floor is some black plastic bag, and some trash.

 

[Conductor71]

This might be old news to many of you but I think it is interesting enough to share again, just in case...

I have been reading media coverage from other countries where they are interested enough to actually dig a little deeper into this case. I ran across an article with this observation:

source: http://americanlivewire.com/elisa-lam-autopsy/


An update from the Vancouver Sun goes into more detail, that according to L.A.’s fire code and the Los Angeles Fire Department, it is illegal to lock rooftop doors in a highrise building in L.A,. but a sign warning the door is alarmed is posted and it is unclear who had access to the key to shut it off. To enter the area where the water tanks are was possible because the door has no lock, but the alarm system would have rung continuously until it was turned off using a special key.

The alarm is a large part of the investigation into how Lam died and how her body got into the tank, said L.A. Police Department spokesman Christopher No.

Even if this turns out to be nothing, why are we not getting these details in the States?

 

[findinganatta]

This might be old news to many of you but I think it is interesting enough to share again, just in case...

I have been reading media coverage from other countries where they are interested enough to actually dig a little deeper into this case. I ran across this article with this observation:

source: http://americanlivewire.com/elisa-lam-autopsy/


An update from the Vancouver Sun goes into more detail, that according to L.A.’s fire code and the Los Angeles Fire Department, it is illegal to lock rooftop doors in a highrise building in L.A,. but a sign warning the door is alarmed is posted and it is unclear who had access to the key to shut it off. To enter the area where the water tanks are was possible because the door has no lock, but the alarm system would have rung continuously until it was turned off using a special key.

Snipped for space

Interesting find. Another LA authorities interview that seems to not be in the US media. I'm not sure if this is referring exclusively to a door that opens directly onto the roof, but it sounds like it. Because it's pretty clear that people could get up there on the fire escape without setting off the alarm, especially given the video of the two guys investigating up there with no alarm issues.

 

[Conductor71]

source: http://americanlivewire.com/elisa-lam-autopsy/


An update from the Vancouver Sun goes into more detail, that according to L.A.’s fire code and the Los Angeles Fire Department, it is illegal to lock rooftop doors in a highrise building in L.A,. but a sign warning the door is alarmed is posted and it is unclear who had access to the key to shut it off. To enter the area where the water tanks are was possible because the door has no lock, but the alarm system would have rung continuously until it was turned off using a special key.

The alarm is a large part of the investigation into how Lam died and how her body got into the tank, said L.A. Police Department spokesman Christopher No.

I am thinking they meant The Toronto Sun? Here is the original piece.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/02/20/mystery-around-students-death-in-la-deepens

I noticed that the LAFD captain is quoted in US news sources but no mention of the alarm and open door situation. Locally, he is only asked about water quality. If it turns out that EL was simply carried out to the roof through an unlocked door, and the Cecil's alarm "failed", there may be at least one more lawsuit pending in the near future.

 

[Qrious]

I am thinking they meant The Toronto Sun? Here is the original piece.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/02/20/mystery-around-students-death-in-la-deepens

I noticed that the LAFD captain is quoted in US news sources but no mention of the alarm and open door situation. Locally, he is only asked about water quality. If it turns out that EL was simply carried out to the roof through an unlocked door, and the Cecil's alarm "failed", there may be at least one more lawsuit pending in the near future.

Let's not discount that she could have walked through the door herself, whether alone or with someone.

 

[AlphaWolf]

This might be old news to many of you but I think it is interesting enough to share again, just in case...

I have been reading media coverage from other countries where they are interested enough to actually dig a little deeper into this case. I ran across an article with this observation:

source: http://americanlivewire.com/elisa-lam-autopsy/


An update from the Vancouver Sun goes into more detail, that according to L.A.’s fire code and the Los Angeles Fire Department, it is illegal to lock rooftop doors in a highrise building in L.A,. but a sign warning the door is alarmed is posted and it is unclear who had access to the key to shut it off. To enter the area where the water tanks are was possible because the door has no lock, but the alarm system would have rung continuously until it was turned off using a special key.

The alarm is a large part of the investigation into how Lam died and how her body got into the tank, said L.A. Police Department spokesman Christopher No.

Even if this turns out to be nothing, why are we not getting these details in the States?

This door?

looking at the picture...the deadbolt has been removed and the door has a pushbar opening lock.

these doors are not locked.....If the alarm was working you would need a key to turn off the alarm( key goes into the key hole of the pushbar box on the left side)

interesting side note: ......the only way to open them is by pushing the bar from the inside...if the door closes and you are on the outside....you could not open it.......make sure to prop the door open.

 

[Conductor71]

This door?

looking at the picture...the deadbolt has been removed and the door has a pushbar opening lock.

these doors are not locked.....If the alarm was working you would need a key to turn off the alarm( key goes into the key hole of the pushbar box on the left side)

interesting side note: ......the only way to open them is by pushing the bar from the inside...if the door closes and you are on the outside....you could not open it.......make sure to prop the door open.

I would assume that there would only be one door with roof access; at least that is what the LAFD made it sound like. It is unsettling to think that the police have essentially stated that much of the investigation hinges on that door alarm and why it was not heard or did not sound and the US press ignores this!? This pretty much says LE suspect that access was made through that door. Of course we know that the fire escape can be used. What other access points exist that we do not know about? For example, I find it odd that there is no service or freight elevator in this entire building? In a hotel with 600 rooms this seems unreal to me.

The reason we are hearing little to no new information is because we have no one doing any investigative reporting on this case. Whether that is by design (request of LAPD) or the dearth of real journalism here, who knows? It seems they think the provocative nature of the video will keep us other wise engaged for 2 months so most will have forgotten who EL is when the toxicology report is complete, so when they hear the news will say "oh that crazy chick from the elevator". Remember Interpol brought the LAPD into this early, and they still did not take this seriously until the water pressure forced their hand. Think if this girl had been an American gone missing? We would have heard nothing about this; EL would have become just another statistic, IMO.

 

[BlueShoe]

An update from the Vancouver Sun goes into more detail, that according to L.A.’s fire code and the Los Angeles Fire Department, it is illegal to lock rooftop doors in a highrise building in L.A,. but a sign warning the door is alarmed is posted and it is unclear who had access to the key to shut it off. To enter the area where the water tanks are was possible because the door has no lock, but the alarm system would have rung continuously until it was turned off using a special key.

The alarm is a large part of the investigation into how Lam died and how her body got into the tank, said L.A. Police Department spokesman Christopher No.

Even if this turns out to be nothing, why are we not getting these details in the States?

This raises a new question. Is the alarm control in the same spot as the elevator control? Could there be an alarm control in the mysterious dark shack on the roof where the elevator maintenance controls seem to be?

 

[AlphaWolf]

I would assume that there would only be one door with roof access; at least that is what the LAFD made it sound like. It is unsettling to think that the police have essentially stated that much of the investigation hinges on that door alarm and why it was not heard or did not sound and the US press ignores this!? This pretty much says LE suspect that access was made through that door. Of course we know that the fire escape can be used. What other access points exist that we do not know about? For example, I find it odd that there is no service or freight elevator in this entire building? In a hotel with 600 rooms this seems unreal to me.

The reason we are hearing little to no new information is because we have no one doing any investigative reporting on this case. Whether that is by design (request of LAPD) or the dearth of real journalism here, who knows? It seems they think the provocative nature of the video will keep us other wise engaged for 2 months so most will have forgotten who EL is when the toxicology report is complete, so when they hear the news will say "oh that crazy chick from the elevator". Remember Interpol brought the LAPD into this early, and they still did not take this seriously until the water pressure forced their hand. Think if this girl had been an American gone missing? We would have heard nothing about this; EL would have become just another statistic, IMO.

Looks to be that way.

- Like you said, there was also a fire escape ladder from the roof to the top floor of the hotel. (14th floor?)

- there are what looks like 2 roof hatches.....not sure how easy they are to access....but it would be an option I guess.

- a video I made showing what a roof access hatch may look like.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W41i70AipHM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W41i70AipHM[/ame]

 

[AlphaWolf]

I would assume that there would only be one door with roof access; at least that is what the LAFD made it sound like. It is unsettling to think that the police have essentially stated that much of the investigation hinges on that door alarm and why it was not heard or did not sound and the US press ignores this!? This pretty much says LE suspect that access was made through that door. Of course we know that the fire escape can be used. What other access points exist that we do not know about? For example, I find it odd that there is no service or freight elevator in this entire building? In a hotel with 600 rooms this seems unreal to me.

The reason we are hearing little to no new information is because we have no one doing any investigative reporting on this case. Whether that is by design (request of LAPD) or the dearth of real journalism here, who knows? It seems they think the provocative nature of the video will keep us other wise engaged for 2 months so most will have forgotten who EL is when the toxicology report is complete, so when they hear the news will say "oh that crazy chick from the elevator". Remember Interpol brought the LAPD into this early, and they still did not take this seriously until the water pressure forced their hand. Think if this girl had been an American gone missing? We would have heard nothing about this; EL would have become just another statistic, IMO.

More thoughts on the Emergency exit door ( accessed through the hotel stairway)

The alarmed push bar...looks new....in the picture taken by the Investigator.

- Once again.....those doors do not lock.....once you push the bar it depress's the locking mechanism.

- a battery( 9volt) inside the box sounds an alarm once the door is open.If the battery was dead ( as it happens many times) the door would not sound.

- Curious to know if that is the original push bar alarm? or is the one in the picture new? ....attached to the door after the police finished removing her body/investigating the roof.

- (my random thoughts ) Those doors are not able to open from the outside....you can only open them from the inside by pushing the bar, often someone has to prop open the door if they want to go on the roof and come back in.

this means the battery life goes by fast....also the alarm is not very loud.

 

[MesaVerde]

this means the battery life goes by fast....also the alarm is not very loud.

So do you mean it is only a local alarm and doesn't alert the lobby?

If so, then if the regular residents are used to hearing it because of people going up whenever they feel like it, then they would learn to just ignore it, especially if it isn't even that loud to begin with.

 

[noodled1]

More thoughts on the Emergency exit door ( accessed through the hotel stairway)



- Once again.....those doors do not lock.....once you push the bar it depress's the locking mechanism.

- a battery( 9volt) inside the box sounds an alarm once the door is open.If the battery was dead ( as it happens many times) the door would not sound.

- Curious to know if that is the original push bar alarm? or is the one in the picture new? ....attached to the door after the police finished removing her body/investigating the roof.

- (my random thoughts ) Those doors are not able to open from the outside....you can only open them from the inside by pushing the bar, often someone has to prop open the door if they want to go on the roof and come back in.

this means the battery life goes by fast....also the alarm is not very loud.

The Chinese investigators said the alarm did not sound when they finally opened the door to go up and take pics.

Originally they found the door but did not want to tempt being discovered by having the alarm sound so they investigated other areas and only when they were done inside the hotel is when they tried the door. Nothing happened so they went up and took the pics and video from the roof

 

[samevo8]

Could you post the reference? My recollection is that they eventually tried to open the door but they found it was locked so they weren't able to test the alarm. I was under the impression that they ended up going to the roof by going up the fire escape.

The Chinese investigators said the alarm did not sound when they finally opened the door to go up and take pics.

Originally they found the door but did not want to tempt being discovered by having the alarm sound so they investigated other areas and only when they were done inside the hotel is when they tried the door. Nothing happened so they went up and took the pics and video from the roof

 

[MesaVerde]

The Chinese investigators said the alarm did not sound when they finally opened the door to go up and take pics.

I remember somebody saying that. Not very surprising in a hotel like that. Now I can't remember who said it. I was thinking it was those Chinese guys but now I am thinking it was somebody who came here and posted a few times who said that he stayed there the week after she was missing. Does that sound familiar?