Hotel Cecil Rooftop Access Discussion

[bessie]

Hi, Bessie.

For clarification, posts are left in the threads where they were first posted and they appear in chrono order in the new topic-specific threads? And on the new threads, then, the posts come from all the different original threads?

Now that I've written that out, I realize it's how it must be but please let me know if I am wrong.

Thank you for the work you've put into this.


[I did not post this in the thread here. I posted in gnrl thread 5. Not sure what up..... ]

You've got it right. Posts moved or copied from their original threads retain their chronological value. I moved some recent posts from the last general thread to the topic threads, so they no longer appear in the general thread. With older posts, it's almost impossible to remove them without disrupting the entire content of the thread. Instead, I copied some of the older posts to the topic threads for background/information to get the discussions going.

 

[Borris]

Excellent point!

If the dead bolt is locked ( on the push bar using the key) it can be very stiff to open.

If the dead bolt is not latched it is much easier to open.

I made a video showing how the emergency door might work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0-OwIC__o

found this so far..




Link to Ca.gov department of industrial relations/OSHA>>>https://www.dir.ca.gov/title8/3235.html wich links back>>> https://www.dir.ca.gov/default.html

This is a fantastic bit of investigating! It's now very compelling to consider the ramifications of your video - that she may have accessed the roof on her own, pushed that door open, and no alarm sounded.

 

[Xavier]

More thoughts on the Emergency exit door ( accessed through the hotel stairway)

The alarmed push bar...looks new....in the picture taken by the Investigator.

- Once again.....those doors do not lock.....once you push the bar it depress's the locking mechanism.

- a battery( 9volt) inside the box sounds an alarm once the door is open.If the battery was dead ( as it happens many times) the door would not sound.

- Curious to know if that is the original push bar alarm? or is the one in the picture new? ....attached to the door after the police finished removing her body/investigating the roof.

- (my random thoughts ) Those doors are not able to open from the outside....you can only open them from the inside by pushing the bar, often someone has to prop open the door if they want to go on the roof and come back in.

this means the battery life goes by fast....also the alarm is not very loud.

Great stuff, thanks alot

I would expect LAPD to have dusted those handrails, door all areas for prints

 

[Conductor71]

Cecil Hotel management actually spoke with a reporter. Interesting that they still insist on that roof access door being locked. Are they just referring to the fire escape?


Hotel management told CNS that the doors to the roof were locked and had alarms, but that someone could otherwise have accessed the tank.


http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/...und_cecil_hotel_dtla_downtown_los_angeles.php


CNS=City News Service

 

[kingsway]

This is a fantastic bit of investigating! It's now very compelling to consider the ramifications of your video - that she may have accessed the roof on her own, pushed that door open, and no alarm sounded.

If the door was unlocked and there was no alarm or a quiet one, then virtually anyone would have the capability of transporting a body, if Elisa was murdered. It makes it easier for someone to lure Elisa onto the roof too. Wouldn't necessarily be a hotel employee either.

And yes, it makes the likelihood that Elisa somehow wandered to the rooftop greater, although there's no explanation for why she was going to take the elevator down, but instead went up to the roof on her own (if that's what she did).

So all possibilities are more likely if this is true. We'll need to ask another team to test the door again to see if it's truly unlocked.

 

[kingsway]

hmm....



I wonder if they tried opening it from the outside?...they went back on the roof?....maybe they climbed up the same way to open it from the roof side.

the door will not open that way...( or someone used something to block the door...it is against code to lock a Emergency exit/panic door)

- also in a previous post, I said the key ( for the keyhole on the push bar)"will turn off the alarm" that is not true on that system. You would have to close the door.

A rooftop door isn't necessarily an emergency exit though. The rooftop was inaccessible during 9/11. But yeah, I read in a newspaper article that rooftop doors are supposed to unlocked in LA, not sure if this is true though.

If so, then they really need to keep the water tank lids locked to prevent contamination of the water supply.

 

[Sillybilly]

Cecil Hotel management actually spoke with a reporter. Interesting that they still insist on that roof access door being locked. Are they just referring to the fire escape?


Hotel management told CNS that the doors to the roof were locked and had alarms, but that someone could otherwise have accessed the tank.


http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/...und_cecil_hotel_dtla_downtown_los_angeles.php


CNS=City News Service

<bbm>

From any pics I've seen, the fire escapes don't have doors onto the roof, and the only door access onto the roof is the one in the centre wing. So, it does seem the pic we have is "the" door.

Interesting comment by hotel management, because if they are claiming the door to the roof was locked and alarmed, then it wasn't previously designated as an emergency exit. Elisa being found in the water tanks doesn't change the designation, so why would it be replaced with a push bar and now designated Emergency Exit.

IMO, they're scrambling to avoid liability .. and making it up as they go along.

 

[jetsetsam]

I've been away for a while and don't know if this has been posted yet;

"The mystery surrounding the death of Elisa Lam deepened Wednesday, as 24 hours learned a door leading to the rooftop water tanks where her body was found was fitted with an alarm that should have sounded when the door was opened.

The door has no lock but the alarm system would have rung continuously until it was turned off using a special key, according to the Los Angeles Fire Department.

According to L.A.'s fire code, it is illegal to lock rooftop doors in a highrise building. But a sign warning the door is alarmed is posted and it is unclear who had access to the key to shut it off.

The dead 21-year-old Vancouver student’s body was found Tuesday morning, then removed from one of four large water storage tanks atop the Cecil Hotel in downtown L.A. and identified through body marks.

Capt. Jaime Moore of the LAFD said it is not known whether the alarm rang the last night Lam was seen alive.

The alarm is a large part of the investigation into how Lam died and how her body got into the tank, said L.A. Police Department spokesman Christopher No.

“That will play a role to see if that was locked or not or who had access to that,” No said."

It's from a Feb 21, 2013 news report.

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2013/02/20/la-mystery-deepens-hotel-rooftop-where-body-found-had-an-alarm

 

[Conductor71]

.


The alarm is a large part of the investigation into how Lam died and how her body got into the tank, said L.A. Police Department spokesman Christopher No.

Yep. I ran across the same info in the Toronto Sun.

The hotel management did actually comment on the door and this is what they told the LA Weekly:

Hotel management told CNS that the doors to the roof were locked and had alarms, but that someone could otherwise have accessed the tank.


http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/...und_cecil_hotel_dtla_downtown_los_angeles.php


CNS=City News Service

Interesting...so why is the fire code info not being reported here? I get the feeling there are other ways to the roof beyond the unlocked door and fire escape. Has anyone confirmed if there is a freight or service elevator?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Cecil Hotel management actually spoke with a reporter. Interesting that they still insist on that roof access door being locked. Are they just referring to the fire escape?


Hotel management told CNS that the doors to the roof were locked and had alarms, but that someone could otherwise have accessed the tank.


http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/...und_cecil_hotel_dtla_downtown_los_angeles.php


CNS=City News Service

He said that after some guests complained of low water pressure in their bathrooms a "maintenance man" went up to take a look and found the body of a woman in her 20s inside the tank this morning.



Hotel management told CNS that the doors to the roof were locked and had alarms, but that someone could otherwise have accessed the tank.

...Bolded jumps out to me.

- Lets say that what the hotel managment says is true. "all doors were locked and had alarms"..."someone could otherwise access the tanks"....what's the otherwise?

- who else would be able to get on the roof and know how to access the tanks?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Okay, just so that I get this right. The DOORS were locked, that would be the door and that ominous roof hatch thing? That leaves the fire escape.
There are graffiti and somehow they came up there. Someone has to have been there to paint them and not only once. And there was this long term resident, who said, people were up there to drink their beer in peace. Do I get all of this correctly?

 

[Conductor71]

Okay, just so that I get this right. The DOORS were locked, that would be the door and that ominous roof hatch thing? That leaves the fire escape.
There are graffiti and somehow they came up there. Someone has to have been there to paint them and not only once. And there was this long term resident, who said, people were up there to drink their beer in peace. Do I get all of this correctly?

Not necessarily. News sources here all say locked. There are 2 accounts from major publisher in Toronto and Vancouver who interviewed the LAFD who say the door was open (required by fire code), but alarm should have sounded. There is a key to control the alarm and no one is clear on just who has access?!? Great security....

My question is why were the dogs not able to pick up on her scent when up on the roof the first week of February...that is another thread.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Okay, just so that I get this right. The DOORS were locked, that would be the door and that ominous roof hatch thing? That leaves the fire escape.
There are graffiti and somehow they came up there. Someone has to have been there to paint them and not only once. And there was this long term resident, who said, people were up there to drink their beer in peace. Do I get all of this correctly?

- I think the only person who would 100% know what doors were locked and what ones were not...is the maintenance person ( the one who found the body)

- I would tend to believe the LE conclusion the Stairway exit( Emergency door) was alarmed but not locked...they most likely interviewed the person who found her ( maintenance man)...he most likely used that exit ( it would be the easiest way to access the roof for maintaining the roof equipment...AC units,Elevator equipment room...etc..etc.)

 

[Peter Brendt]

Not necessarily. News sources here all say locked. There are 2 accounts from major publisher in Toronto and Vancouver who interviewed the LAFD who say the door was open (required by fire code), but alarm should have sounded. There is a key to control the alarm and no one is clear on just who has access?!? Great security....

My question is why were the dogs not able to pick up on her scent when up on the roof the first week of February...that is another thread.

The dogs don't even make me scratch my head. A body that is carried, leaves no usable smell traces for the dogs and the final place was in water, in a tank. So the dogs were chance-less.
The point with the doors is in my guess more a question of human behavior than actually of what people say. But that's IMO. The Hotel said, the doors were locked initially. They can't just change their story, how would that look. On the other hand, do I believe, those doors were actually locked? Rather not. Look at the rest of the security there. To keep doors locked indicates, someone cares and I don't think anybody in the staff actually cared.

 

[Sillybilly]

I've contacted two of our verified K9 folks to see if either or both of them have time to join us to answer some of the questions we may have wrt the dogs. Am waiting to hear back from them, and if they are able to, i'll set up a separate thread on the dogs.

 

[Peter Brendt]

- I think the only person who would 100% know what doors were locked and what ones were not...is the maintenance person ( the one who found the body)

- I would tend to believe the LE conclusion the Stairway exit( Emergency door) was alarmed but not locked...they most likely interviewed the person who found her ( maintenance man)...he most likely used that exit ( it would be the easiest way to access the roof for maintaining the roof equipment...AC units,Elevator equipment room...etc..etc.)

So, when he found the body, he ran down anyway. So when police came there after the body was found, the door was certainly unlocked. Unfortunately, I can't see anything, how it was the first time, when EL was missing and they searched also up there. But what you say makes from a behavioral point of view sense.

 

[kingsway]

- I think the only person who would 100% know what doors were locked and what ones were not...is the maintenance person ( the one who found the body)

- I would tend to believe the LE conclusion the Stairway exit( Emergency door) was alarmed but not locked...they most likely interviewed the person who found her ( maintenance man)...he most likely used that exit ( it would be the easiest way to access the roof for maintaining the roof equipment...AC units,Elevator equipment room...etc..etc.)

I would tend to agree with you, but the Chinese investigators tried it and they said it was locked. I don't think they had a reason to lie, but they may not have pushed hard enough.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I would tend to agree with you, but the Chinese investigators tried it and they said it was locked. I don't think they had a reason to lie, but they may not have pushed hard enough.

On a second thought, is this one of those systems, that unlock when the alarm is triggered from another source, e.g. fire alarm? And if so, where ends this alarm? Automatically at 911? Or in a nice little room where hotel security dwells during the day hours but not at night?

 

[AlphaWolf]

On a second thought, is this one of those systems, that unlock when the alarm is triggered from another source, e.g. fire alarm? And if so, where ends this alarm? Automatically at 911? Or in a nice little room where hotel security dwells during the day hours but not at night?

If the door was in the same condition as the photo ( at the top of the thread) when Elisa was there...

- It had the panic bar alarm ( sounds like a household fire alarm)...it is a local alarm, meaning it makes the sound at the door.( powered by a 9volt battery)

- It looks to also have a magnetic door alarm also ( at the top left/center of the door...2 litle white blocks) those could connect to a alarm somewhere else....or just go to a alarm in the nearby ceiling.

- The panic bar looks fairly new, in great condition( compared to the door and it's parts)...they could have upgraded for code and got the panic bar system, and done away with the old magnetic alarm.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0-OwIC__o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0-OwIC__o[/ame]

 

[AlphaWolf]

I would tend to agree with you, but the Chinese investigators tried it and they said it was locked. I don't think they had a reason to lie, but they may not have pushed hard enough.

yes it is confusing hearing that.

If they read this I hope they could reply to us.

a few things that make me think it may have been unlocked.

- LE said it was unlocked but had an alarm.

- any door with a panic bar system cannot have a lock on it according to LA Building codes

- panic bar systems do not lock from the inside, when you press the bar it unlocks

- the door would be locked to anyone trying to open it from the outside.

The U.S. Department of Labor Occupational Safety & Health Administration (OSHA) administers the regulations regarding emergency exits from commercial buildings. One of the most critical regulations involves the type of door hardware installed on fire doors. The easiest way to meet the OSHA requirements is to install tested and certified panic bars.

The requirement states that exit doors must only be locked from the outside. Employees and others must be able to open the door from the inside at all times without having to use a key, tool or special knowledge

link>>>http://www.articlesbase.com/ask-an-expert-articles/choose-panic-bars-to-meet-osha-standards-614404.html

of course with all bieng said.....someone could have still locked it....or blocked from the outside