Because they used scent dogs that are trained to track a living person vs cadaver dogs that find bodies. Even among cadaver dogs there's highly specialized ones trained only to find bodies in water
Hotel Cecil Rooftop Access Discussion
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Because they used scent dogs that are trained to track a living person vs cadaver dogs that find bodies. Even among cadaver dogs there's highly specialized ones trained only to find bodies in water
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But, that's what is puzzling ... 5 days is no biggy to trained dogs.
IF she got up there on her own, her live scent should have still been there for scent dogs to detect it, right up to the tanks (even though she was possibly in the tank and deceased at that time).
I've asked some handlers to join the discussion but haven't heard back yet.
Borris
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This isn't a correct assumption. The problem is wind dispersal. Dogs can track our scent because our skin dies at the surface so we shed as we move and that is what they smell. When we move through the woods, dogs are able to track us, even after days, because our skin flakes are trapped by leafy plants, and grasses, so it's hard for the wind to disperse them. But a rooftop is concrete with unprotected surfaces so skin flakes would be dispersed by the high winds, leaving no trail, especially after 5 days.
jellybeanz
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Graffiti is apparently shown on the inside of the door to the roof-top equipment room.
That's the outside of the door that leads to the stairwell I believe
I deleted that post. It's not the inside of the door to the elevator room, it's the outside of the door to the stairwell
the elevator room door is in the pic in the lower left of the circled area
Yes there are, and I have no clue where they are... somebody here posted them in one of these threads. Probably in one of the threads that are locked
Ok found it.
Page two of this thread post number 33 there's a video that shows clearly the door with the tagging is the outside of the door that leads to the stairwell, not the inside of the door to the elevator mechanical shack
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Neither of us is an expert Borris, and IMO it's a lot more complex than the very basics you set out.
We don't know if the dogs were there on day 1 or day 5. Each case is unique, and while the conditions may not have been ideal ... windy or not, vegetation or not, it is my understanding that the combination of the rain (which serves to rehydrate the cells) and the design of the rooftop (wind should disperse the scent into corners, under the tank platform, into cracks and crevices of the roofing material), should still have left some detectable scent.
Even my scenario is probably an over-simplification that experienced handlers might have a chuckle over, so hopefully our verified handlers at WS will join us to give their take on this particular case.
JMO
There was actually already a very in-depth informative post here that detailed why the dogs would not pick up the scent, how scent dogs work and the different types... possibly by one of the handlers you're thinking of made that post...
now where it is in all this discussion is the hard part...lol I'm thinking in original threads 3 4 or 5 that are all locked down now. I only came on-board during thread 3 and I remember reading the posting and I know I never went back and read threads 1 or 2...
Eureka! found it... post #1317, page 53, thread #3 by broccoli
http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/mammals/sar-dog2.htm
Borris
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Regardless. My post wasn't about tagging but about roof-access points, and the equipment room is not secure.
We just need to find out whether a person can ride the top of the elevator up to the inside of the equipment room.
I'd be more than happy to hear from a verified handler, but it's an assumption to believe the search dogs could locate a 5-day old living scent on a 15 story-high rooftop flat - and it didn't rain in February for 90014.
Myst
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"Hotel management told CNS that the doors to the roof were locked and had alarms, but that someone could otherwise have accessed the tank."
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2013/02/elisa_lam_body_found_cecil_hotel_dtla_downtown_los_angeles.php
I wish the media would have given the direct quote from hotel management. As it is, it's basically the media telling us what they said.
It's interesting that from the above statement at the link given, 'doors' (plural) and 'alarms' (plural) are mentioned. Leading one to believe then that there is more than one door to the roof and more than one alarm. Why would mg'ment say doors/alarms if more than one of each does not exist? (If they actually said it the way that media presents it). We see the alarmed door with no lock. Where's the locked door?
And then... somewhere in these threads is the link to the info from LE saying that the door was not locked but had an alarm.
LE has also said that the alarm goes to hotel management, not to them.
And doors to a highrise roof is not supposed to be locked?
Yet, in that statement above at the link, hotel management said the doors to the roof were locked.
Soooooo.... which is it??
My guess is like some others have mentioned... that the door/s were not locked. And the alarm on the one door may not even have been there prior to the discovery of Elisa's body. Perhaps the alarm was there before but seldom used. The seeming discrepancy in info given between hotel mg'ment and LE 'could' be indicative of one or more covering for each other.
And regardless of whether or not the door/s were locked/alarmed at any point after Elisa went missing, does not (IMO) prove they were when she went missing.
Anyone could claim anything now, and how would anyone else know for sure?
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2013/02/elisa_lam_body_found_cecil_hotel_dtla_downtown_los_angeles.php
I wish the media would have given the direct quote from hotel management. As it is, it's basically the media telling us what they said.
It's interesting that from the above statement at the link given, 'doors' (plural) and 'alarms' (plural) are mentioned. Leading one to believe then that there is more than one door to the roof and more than one alarm. Why would mg'ment say doors/alarms if more than one of each does not exist? (If they actually said it the way that media presents it). We see the alarmed door with no lock. Where's the locked door?
And then... somewhere in these threads is the link to the info from LE saying that the door was not locked but had an alarm.
LE has also said that the alarm goes to hotel management, not to them.
And doors to a highrise roof is not supposed to be locked?
Yet, in that statement above at the link, hotel management said the doors to the roof were locked.
Soooooo.... which is it??
My guess is like some others have mentioned... that the door/s were not locked. And the alarm on the one door may not even have been there prior to the discovery of Elisa's body. Perhaps the alarm was there before but seldom used. The seeming discrepancy in info given between hotel mg'ment and LE 'could' be indicative of one or more covering for each other.
And regardless of whether or not the door/s were locked/alarmed at any point after Elisa went missing, does not (IMO) prove they were when she went missing.
Anyone could claim anything now, and how would anyone else know for sure?
Myst
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LE has said they used a dog while searching for Elisa during the early days when they found out she was missing. They haven't (to my knowledge) said what kind of dog they used in the search. My guess is that they used a regular search dog, not a cadaver dog, since they supposedly were looking for an alive Elisa.
It seems to me that surely a regular search dog would have picked up her scent in the hallways, at an elevator, at the door to her room. We haven't been told what if anything the dog picked up of an alive Elisa, have we? Am thinking all I've read in the media is that LE took the dog thru the hotel and the rooftop, no details of what may have been found. We need more info, sigh.
I don't think LE did a very thorough search with the dog thru the hotel, as they supposedly didn't 'have cause' to search each room. One would think though that they 'could have' taken the dog to the rooftop thru each available entrance, just to be sure. Don't know how they could have gotten the dog to the very top of that room on top of the roof, but to have been thorough, am wishing they tried.
Haven't heard if LE ever went back thru with a cadaver dog AFTER finding Elisa. Seems if she were killed inside the hotel or outside on the rooftop, a cadaver dog might have been able to find her scent wherever her body may have been at some point. Cadaver dogs are very smart and very well-trained. I believe them first over anything anyone says. A dog has no ulterior motives. (Many of us have seen what they've done in other cases).
It seems to me that surely a regular search dog would have picked up her scent in the hallways, at an elevator, at the door to her room. We haven't been told what if anything the dog picked up of an alive Elisa, have we? Am thinking all I've read in the media is that LE took the dog thru the hotel and the rooftop, no details of what may have been found. We need more info, sigh.
I don't think LE did a very thorough search with the dog thru the hotel, as they supposedly didn't 'have cause' to search each room. One would think though that they 'could have' taken the dog to the rooftop thru each available entrance, just to be sure. Don't know how they could have gotten the dog to the very top of that room on top of the roof, but to have been thorough, am wishing they tried.
Haven't heard if LE ever went back thru with a cadaver dog AFTER finding Elisa. Seems if she were killed inside the hotel or outside on the rooftop, a cadaver dog might have been able to find her scent wherever her body may have been at some point. Cadaver dogs are very smart and very well-trained. I believe them first over anything anyone says. A dog has no ulterior motives. (Many of us have seen what they've done in other cases).
That's been my contention for quite some time, The top level of the elevator shack houses the motors for the elevators and the bottom level is for access to the elevators themselves. only question is is it just the top of the elevator or can you bring the whole car up to that lower level.
from my googling both options are viable. i'm thinking with no service elevator in the building having one or both of the elevators able to reach roof top access for moving equipment would be an option. obviously larger things like the water tanks themselves would have to craned up to the roof when the building was built (no helicopters in the 20's)