Hotel Cecil Rooftop Access Discussion

[noodled1]

My question is why were the dogs not able to pick up on her scent when up on the roof the first week of February...that is another thread.

Because they used scent dogs that are trained to track a living person vs cadaver dogs that find bodies. Even among cadaver dogs there's highly specialized ones trained only to find bodies in water

 

[noodled1]

You can probably assume the door is unlocked and that the alarm doesn't sound based on the graffiti and bottles up there. Wouldn't doubt it if it's smoke break area for hotel staffers

 

[Sillybilly]

Because they used scent dogs that are trained to track a living person vs cadaver dogs that find bodies. Even among cadaver dogs there's highly specialized ones trained only to find bodies in water

But, that's what is puzzling ... 5 days is no biggy to trained dogs.

IF she got up there on her own, her live scent should have still been there for scent dogs to detect it, right up to the tanks (even though she was possibly in the tank and deceased at that time).

I've asked some handlers to join the discussion but haven't heard back yet.

 

[Borris]

Graffiti is apparently shown on the inside of the door to the roof-top equipment room.

 

[Borris]

But, that's what is puzzling ... 5 days is no biggy to trained dogs.

IF she got up there on her own, her live scent should have still been there for scent dogs to detect it, right up to the tanks (even though she was possibly in the tank and deceased at that time).

This isn't a correct assumption. The problem is wind dispersal. Dogs can track our scent because our skin dies at the surface so we shed as we move and that is what they smell. When we move through the woods, dogs are able to track us, even after days, because our skin flakes are trapped by leafy plants, and grasses, so it's hard for the wind to disperse them. But a rooftop is concrete with unprotected surfaces so skin flakes would be dispersed by the high winds, leaving no trail, especially after 5 days.

 

[jellybeanz]

I've contacted two of our verified K9 folks to see if either or both of them have time to join us to answer some of the questions we may have wrt the dogs. Am waiting to hear back from them, and if they are able to, i'll set up a separate thread on the dogs.

Good thinking, not so silly billy

 

[catatonia]

Holy cow, we may have just answered a question on the elevators going up to the roof top.... I has said earlier I thought with that elevator mechanical room being two story that there wa a good chance the elevator went all the way up to the roof

What about the camera footage?

 

[noodled1]

Graffiti is apparently shown on the inside of the door to the roof-top equipment room.

That's the outside of the door that leads to the stairwell I believe

 

[noodled1]

What about the camera footage?

I deleted that post. It's not the inside of the door to the elevator room, it's the outside of the door to the stairwell

the elevator room door is in the pic in the lower left of the circled area

 

[BlueShoe]

That's the outside of the door that leads to the stairwell I believe

Are there any photos of that door that show what the graffiti says? Or other closer photos that show the location of that door on the roof? Is it right next to the equipment room doors?

 

[noodled1]

Are there any photos of that door that show what the graffiti says? Or other closer photos that show the location of that door on the roof? Is it right next to the equipment room doors?

Yes there are, and I have no clue where they are... somebody here posted them in one of these threads. Probably in one of the threads that are locked

 

[catatonia]

There has to be at least one picture of the door taken by those Chinese investigators, I think it was posted some days ago in the old (#3) general thread.

 

[noodled1]

There has to be at least one picture of the door taken by those Chinese investigators, I think it was posted some days ago in the old (#3) general thread.

Ok found it.

Page two of this thread post number 33 there's a video that shows clearly the door with the tagging is the outside of the door that leads to the stairwell, not the inside of the door to the elevator mechanical shack

 

[Sillybilly]

This isn't a correct assumption. The problem is wind dispersal. Dogs can track our scent because our skin dies at the surface so we shed as we move and that is what they smell. When we move through the woods, dogs are able to track us, even after days, because our skin flakes are trapped by leafy plants, and grasses, so it's hard for the wind to disperse them. But a rooftop is concrete with unprotected surfaces so skin flakes would be dispersed by the high winds, leaving no trail, especially after 5 days.

Neither of us is an expert Borris, and IMO it's a lot more complex than the very basics you set out.

We don't know if the dogs were there on day 1 or day 5. Each case is unique, and while the conditions may not have been ideal ... windy or not, vegetation or not, it is my understanding that the combination of the rain (which serves to rehydrate the cells) and the design of the rooftop (wind should disperse the scent into corners, under the tank platform, into cracks and crevices of the roofing material), should still have left some detectable scent.

Even my scenario is probably an over-simplification that experienced handlers might have a chuckle over, so hopefully our verified handlers at WS will join us to give their take on this particular case.

JMO

 

[noodled1]

Neither of us is an expert Borris, and IMO it's a lot more complex than the very basics you set out.

We don't know if the dogs were there on day 1 or day 5. Each case is unique, and while the conditions may not have been ideal ... windy or not, vegetation or not, it is my understanding that the combination of the rain (which serves to rehydrate the cells) and the design of the rooftop (wind should disperse the scent into corners, under the tank platform, into cracks and crevices of the roofing material), should still have left some detectable scent.

Even my scenario is probably an over-simplification that experienced handlers might have a chuckle over, so hopefully our verified handlers at WS will join us to give their take on this particular case.

JMO

There was actually already a very in-depth informative post here that detailed why the dogs would not pick up the scent, how scent dogs work and the different types... possibly by one of the handlers you're thinking of made that post...

now where it is in all this discussion is the hard part...lol I'm thinking in original threads 3 4 or 5 that are all locked down now. I only came on-board during thread 3 and I remember reading the posting and I know I never went back and read threads 1 or 2...

 

[noodled1]

There was actually already a very in-depth informative post here that detailed why the dogs would not pick up the scent, how scent dogs work and the different types... possibly by one of the handlers you're thinking of made that post...

now where it is in all this discussion is the hard part...lol I'm thinking in original threads 3 4 or 5 that are all locked down now. I only came on-board during thread 3 and I remember reading the posting and I know I never went back and read threads 1 or 2...

Eureka! found it... post #1317, page 53, thread #3 by broccoli


http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/mammals/sar-dog2.htm

 

[Borris]

That's the outside of the door that leads to the stairwell I believe

Ok found it.

Page two of this thread post number 33 there's a video that shows clearly the door with the tagging is the outside of the door that leads to the stairwell, not the inside of the door to the elevator mechanical shack

Regardless. My post wasn't about tagging but about roof-access points, and the equipment room is not secure.

We just need to find out whether a person can ride the top of the elevator up to the inside of the equipment room.

Neither of us is an expert Borris, and IMO it's a lot more complex than the very basics you set out.

We don't know if the dogs were there on day 1 or day 5. Each case is unique, and while the conditions may not have been ideal ... windy or not, vegetation or not, it is my understanding that the combination of the rain (which serves to rehydrate the cells) and the design of the rooftop (wind should disperse the scent into corners, under the tank platform, into cracks and crevices of the roofing material), should still have left some detectable scent.

Even my scenario is probably an over-simplification that experienced handlers might have a chuckle over, so hopefully our verified handlers at WS will join us to give their take on this particular case.

JMO

I'd be more than happy to hear from a verified handler, but it's an assumption to believe the search dogs could locate a 5-day old living scent on a 15 story-high rooftop flat - and it didn't rain in February for 90014.

 

[Myst]

"Hotel management told CNS that the doors to the roof were locked and had alarms, but that someone could otherwise have accessed the tank."

http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2013/02/elisa_lam_body_found_cecil_hotel_dtla_downtown_los_angeles.php

I wish the media would have given the direct quote from hotel management. As it is, it's basically the media telling us what they said.

It's interesting that from the above statement at the link given, 'doors' (plural) and 'alarms' (plural) are mentioned. Leading one to believe then that there is more than one door to the roof and more than one alarm. Why would mg'ment say doors/alarms if more than one of each does not exist? (If they actually said it the way that media presents it). We see the alarmed door with no lock. Where's the locked door?

And then... somewhere in these threads is the link to the info from LE saying that the door was not locked but had an alarm.

LE has also said that the alarm goes to hotel management, not to them.

And doors to a highrise roof is not supposed to be locked?

Yet, in that statement above at the link, hotel management said the doors to the roof were locked.

Soooooo.... which is it??

My guess is like some others have mentioned... that the door/s were not locked. And the alarm on the one door may not even have been there prior to the discovery of Elisa's body. Perhaps the alarm was there before but seldom used. The seeming discrepancy in info given between hotel mg'ment and LE 'could' be indicative of one or more covering for each other.

And regardless of whether or not the door/s were locked/alarmed at any point after Elisa went missing, does not (IMO) prove they were when she went missing.
Anyone could claim anything now, and how would anyone else know for sure?

 

[Myst]

LE has said they used a dog while searching for Elisa during the early days when they found out she was missing. They haven't (to my knowledge) said what kind of dog they used in the search. My guess is that they used a regular search dog, not a cadaver dog, since they supposedly were looking for an alive Elisa.

It seems to me that surely a regular search dog would have picked up her scent in the hallways, at an elevator, at the door to her room. We haven't been told what if anything the dog picked up of an alive Elisa, have we? Am thinking all I've read in the media is that LE took the dog thru the hotel and the rooftop, no details of what may have been found. We need more info, sigh.

I don't think LE did a very thorough search with the dog thru the hotel, as they supposedly didn't 'have cause' to search each room. One would think though that they 'could have' taken the dog to the rooftop thru each available entrance, just to be sure. Don't know how they could have gotten the dog to the very top of that room on top of the roof, but to have been thorough, am wishing they tried.

Haven't heard if LE ever went back thru with a cadaver dog AFTER finding Elisa. Seems if she were killed inside the hotel or outside on the rooftop, a cadaver dog might have been able to find her scent wherever her body may have been at some point. Cadaver dogs are very smart and very well-trained. I believe them first over anything anyone says. A dog has no ulterior motives. (Many of us have seen what they've done in other cases).

 

[noodled1]

We just need to find out whether a person can ride the top of the elevator up to the inside of the equipment room.

That's been my contention for quite some time, The top level of the elevator shack houses the motors for the elevators and the bottom level is for access to the elevators themselves. only question is is it just the top of the elevator or can you bring the whole car up to that lower level.

from my googling both options are viable. i'm thinking with no service elevator in the building having one or both of the elevators able to reach roof top access for moving equipment would be an option. obviously larger things like the water tanks themselves would have to craned up to the roof when the building was built (no helicopters in the 20's)