Hotel Cecil Rooftop Access Discussion

[OCSlacker]

That's been my contention for quite some time, The top level of the elevator shack houses the motors for the elevators and the bottom level is for access to the elevators themselves. only question is is it just the top of the elevator or can you bring the whole car up to that lower level.

from my googling both options are viable. i'm thinking with no service elevator in the building having one or both of the elevators able to reach roof top access for moving equipment would be an option. obviously larger things like the water tanks themselves would have to craned up to the roof when the building was built (no helicopters in the 20's)

Usually there is a grate for a small enclosure within the shaft if it is a machine-less roof. However that could have been built after the fact while upgrading the elevator system. If you look up elevator surfing on Google and on YouTube. You'll notice in some of the videos, when they get to the top floor you will see a hatch or grate in the ceiling. To my understanding these are in more modern structures.

In any building it would still be necessary to have access to the hoist / elevator shaft and I assume that area is located in that room to gain access, most likely via a grate/ hatch and must be possible for a person to fit through that area. I also assume that is what you are referring to. In the second link the original purpose of the group that decided to ride the top of the elevator was to gain access to the roof to watch fireworks. It's common for people who elevator surf to do it to gain access to areas that are otherwise off limits to them.

Either way, if the machine room has access to the elevator shaft then a body could be placed onto the top of the elevator and brought to the roof.

Proper ventilation / cooling equipment for the mechanical equipment is necessary for all elevators and is most likely also in the machine room with a ventilation fan that runs into the shaft.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKiztsibvic&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]Otis Gen2 Machine Room-less (MRL) Elevator Surfing - YouTube[/ame]

http://gene.greger-weltin.org/elevator_surfing/

Article on machine rooms

http://www.syska.com/thought/articles.asp?art=424

All you would need to access the top of most elevators is a drop key or a bent piece of metal to gain access. Takes about 10 secs to open. From there , controls are on the top of the elevator that allow you to stop normal access and control the elevator, there's even a light.



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlSxIcoAyrA&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]HOW TO: ELEVATOR SURFING: picking the outer door interlock - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.capitolfiretraining.com/...ticle&id=100:creating-elevator-drop-key-holes

Would have been great if the Chinese investigators had filmed in the maintenance room but I am supposed to be going with a few others from this forum soon. If the trip happens I'll bring a flashlight and try to enter the maintenance room to look around, possibly film inside the room. Also, curious if the elevator doors allow for drop key access. It's a small round hole at the top corner on the outside of the elevator.

Haven't seen any video of the outside elevator doors on the upper floors and cannot access the Chinese investigator videos on my tablet. Anyone notice a small hole at the top of the elevator door in any of those videos? The elevator appears to be an Otis but not sure which model. Any ideas on the model type?

Can't say I suspect that was how the body was transported to the roof. I can't imagine someone bringing an elevator up to the 14th floor, and then running back up to 15, carrying a body over and riding it to the top to gain access to a roof hatch, but anything is possible I suppose. I just don't see someone taking that risk in the halls though.

Then again, carrying a body up a fire escape is a hell of a risk too

 

[bessie]

Are there any photos of that door that show what the graffiti says? Or other closer photos that show the location of that door on the roof? Is it right next to the equipment room doors?

Graffiti images here.

The Chinese media is covering this much more than the Western counterparts.

Here is the water tower....inside....after the body was removed....

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws...assets/1361522177320201302220032556_46318.jpg

More graffiti images of the water tower...a better perspective:

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws...assets/1361522179123201302220032567_46318.jpg

Courtesy of Chinese newspaper World Journal: http://www.worldjournal.com/view/full_news/21788016/article-%E8%97%8D%E5%8F%AF%E5%85%92%E5%91%BD%E6%A1%88-%E9%85%92%E5%BA%97%E5%9B%9B%E6%B0%B4%E5%A1%94-%E9%A0%82%E8%93%8B%E9%83%BD%E6%9C%AA%E8%93%8B?instance=hota

It appears from the interview on Chinese television, for those that understand Cantonese, Elisa does have a blog...and would update their friends on it.

http://www.ktsf.com/friend-of-elisa-lam-thinks-lam-was-drugged/

A bit OT, but just it seems a lot of strange coincidences like the LAM Elisa test, FYI......Elisa's Chinese name is 藍可兒 and while "藍" is her surname literally meaning the colour blue, "可兒" makes the same pronunciation as "suspicious". This is certainly suspicious.

Anyone know what the graffiti means? It looks rather new and fresh looking next to the water tanks. Was it written with chalk?

ETA: Sorry, I misread your post. Will search for graffiti on door.

 

[findinganatta]

I don't think LE did a very thorough search with the dog thru the hotel, as they supposedly didn't 'have cause' to search each room. One would think though that they 'could have' taken the dog to the rooftop thru each available entrance, just to be sure. Don't know how they could have gotten the dog to the very top of that room on top of the roof, but to have been thorough, am wishing they tried.

If she didn't go into any other rooms, then no amount of dog searching would have gotten them legit warrants to search. I feel pretty sure they ran the dog(s) down the halls of each floor... that's bare-minimum investigating and wouldn't have taken that long. Not to mention the police do actually try to solve cases.

If they didn't find anything indicating foul play, well... maybe that's because there wasn't any :moo: In which case the police didn't do anything wrong except not thoroughly search the cistern(s). Which isn't perfect police work, but it's not total incompetence either, IMO.

 

[findinganatta]

By the way, to those wondering about the graffiti, it was discussed in another thread. It means something that could be interpreted to be associated with LE, but only vaguely. And apparently it's all over the roof (along with plenty of other grafitti, being that it's Los Angeles). Most importantly, though, that same exact tag is painted around the city, and has been around since well before the LE death. Taggers are all about sneaking onto rooftops, billboards, water towers, etc. It seems very unlikely that stuff is related to EL, imo, even if foul play was involved in her death.

 

[catatonia]

Since the rooftop was supposed to be locked/secured, why would they bring the search dogs up there but not let them search for Elisa in the hotel (resp. all floors)?

 

[BlueShoe]

Since the rooftop was supposed to be locked/secured, why would they bring the search dogs up there but not let them search for Elisa in the hotel (resp. all floors)?

Probable because of legal issues. Although the hotel management can allow a search of the hotel itself, guest rooms are probably off limits unless the guest agrees, or if there is some specific suspicion about a room that can be seen as probable cause.

 

[neo]

expert thinks she was drugged-

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/444322/20130310/canadian-woman-elisa-lam-death-cecil-hotel.htm

 

[Peter Brendt]

expert thinks she was drugged-

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/444322/20130310/canadian-woman-elisa-lam-death-cecil-hotel.htm

According to the symptom handbook E05 (which is written by Porrata), this is rather a "could". As she also points out in the article. "could". And even if we dismiss that nuance, it still doesn't explain how EL came on the roof. And drug influence is not always a complete psychotic break. So basically, nice insight, but not very helpful to figure ut how EL died.

 

[neo]

My translation of Chinese forum http://bbs.tianya.cn/post-free-3077181-101.shtml#ty_vip_look[VB调查]



We also discovered 2 more things whilst standing on the roof of the attic/loft :

http://img3.laibafile.cn/p/m/134572602.jpg

http://img3.laibafile.cn/p/m/134572650.jpg

Yes. We found empty beer bottles on the roof of the attic/loft building. One under the chimney. The other under the dish.

My first thought : Someone had been drinking at this spot.

My second thought : Could Elisa have been to this very spot to drink too?

My third thought : Such crucial evidence might have Elisa's fingerprints on them. Why didn't the LAPD take them back for further investigation?

My fourth thought : No matter whether the police had taken all evidence back, or whether the police failed to find these 2 pieces of evidence - Why would there still be people coming up to the rooftop of the attic/loft to drink after the discovery of Elisa's body here?

My fifth thought : After such a grim discovery at the hotel, who would still wish to come up here to have a drink? Other than the murderer himself?!

My above thoughts are not comforting and throw up lots of suspicion.

If the police cannot even find such crucial evidence, if the police failed to bring crucial evidence back for further tests/investigations, then what can we say about the competency of the LAPD? Are they doing their jobs properly?

If the police did not find such evidence when they were searching this place, if this evidence wasn't present at the time, then who else would still dare to come up here to have a drink, apart from the murderer himself? Coming back to where the murder had taken place in order to relive or savour the murder scene in his head all over again? If that's the case then how sick is this murderer indeed?




VB调查

Those Beer bottles could be interesting..why were they not taken by LE for DNA/Fingerprint analysis.

 

[Sillybilly]

I'd be more than happy to hear from a verified handler, but it's an assumption to believe the search dogs could locate a 5-day old living scent on a 15 story-high rooftop flat - and it didn't rain in February for 90014.

<rsbm>

LOL, you mean kinda like your assumption that they could not because it was too windy, 5 days was too long, and the building too high? I assume I have more confidence in the dogs' abilities than you do.

Anyway, you are correct that it did not rain in the 5 day period during which the search would have taken place. I was remembering posts that were referring to the rain later in the month.

Farmers Almanac historical weather data for Los Angeles Feb 1 to 5 shows no precip for the period Feb 1 to 5, and temp/wind speed as follows:

From:
http://www.almanac.com/weather/history/CA/Los Angeles/2013-02-01

Wind Speed Mph
Mean/Max

Feb 1 .58 &#8211; 8
Feb 2 .12 &#8211; 2.9
Feb 3 1.04 &#8211; 4.1
Feb 4 .58 &#8211; 5.1
Feb 5 .58 &#8211; 4.1

Degrees F
Min/Mean/Max

Feb 1 50/60/76
Feb 2 56/63/75
Feb 3 56/67/77
Feb 4 50/59/72
Feb 5 54/55/60


I've heard back from Oriah, one of our verified handlers. As busy as these folks are, Oriah has graciously agreed to join us after they've had a chance to catch up on the the thread.

 

[kingsway]

Housekeeping might have destroyed some clues.

 

[kingsway]

expert thinks she was drugged-

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/444322/20130310/canadian-woman-elisa-lam-death-cecil-hotel.htm

Another "expert", this time a "club-drug expert". And guess what his conclusion is? surprise, surprise.

Another example of Maslow's hammer.

 

[jetsetsam]

That was my initial response as well.

But I did a search of the name, and Trinka Porrata is more legit that I thought.

Including time with the LAPD.

 

[Conductor71]

That was my initial response as well.

But I did a search of the name, and Trinka Porrata is more legit that I thought.

Including time with the LAPD.

MDMA does not; however, commonly include hallucinations.

The effects of MDMA can be described as those of a hallucinogenic amphetamine, combining some effects of amphetamine (ie, speed) with that of LSD (ie, acid). However, many of the effects are dose dependent, and auditory and/or visual hallucinations are not commonly observed


MDMA Toxicity

Note this list highlighting short term effects (20 min to 6 hours) of MDMA from CESAR:

Anxiety or paranoia
Extreme Relaxation
Blurred vision or nystagmus - rapid quivering of the pupils (while the user is feeling peak effects)

This for me sums up what I see in the video. Given the weird extremes in body language (alternating exaggeratedly relaxed or over fluid movement followed by body stiffening and "hiding" - Not to mention her need to observe the elevator buttons.

Quite honestly, I must say that can explain why she looks purposeful and odd at the same time with the buttons. I never have thought it was her eyesight but see that ecstasy would take what was happening and make ultra heighten her senses.

I do not think she would have taken drugs recreationally, but this could have easily been slipped to her.

 

[zaza]

I think we need verification first before we take any of those information to be confirmed.

Remember, there is a lot of people on the internet claiming they were at the Cecil Hotel, but haven't offered any proof they were actually staying there.

I hope smeinzer isn't offended, but it is very easy for any anonymous person to lie about being there and make up 'facts' about the Cecil Hotel. We really need confirmation via verification such as receipts at the Cecil hotel, photos, videos, etc at this point from people claiming to have stayed there.

Hey, Turk, I'm just beginning to jump into this case. Thanks for posting the photo of the Cecil with its rooftop. Do you notice that toward the middle of the photo, you can see a ladder that definitely goes to the roof and there is a window just below it? This looks like the access previously described. Interesting, none the less.

 

[paint]

this is so improbable i hesitate to post it, but since anything's possible...

in the pictures of the rooftop attached, you can see the 15th floor windows. a body could have been placed in a large duffel bag with a rope attached, the window screen removed, then the rope tossed up to the rooftop and cinched to something secure - from there, the body hoisted up. this would be easier with two people working together. one of the pictures shows a window directly under the tanks.

if there is a former prison population on the upper floors, no one is going to see or hear anything, if you know what i mean.

i think it's more likely a disarmed rooftop door was used. of course hotel management is going to say it was secured, but if, for instance, the door was constantly tripped, perhaps security had had enough and turned it off.

 

[zaza]

MDMA does not; however, commonly include hallucinations.

The effects of MDMA can be described as those of a hallucinogenic amphetamine, combining some effects of amphetamine (ie, speed) with that of LSD (ie, acid). However, many of the effects are dose dependent, and auditory and/or visual hallucinations are not commonly observed


MDMA Toxicity

Note this list highlighting short term effects (20 min to 6 hours) of MDMA from CESAR:

Anxiety or paranoia
Extreme Relaxation
Blurred vision or nystagmus - rapid quivering of the pupils (while the user is feeling peak effects)

This for me sums up what I see in the video. Given the weird extremes in body language (alternating exaggeratedly relaxed or over fluid movement followed by body stiffening and "hiding" - Not to mention her need to observe the elevator buttons.

Quite honestly, I must say that can explain why she looks purposeful and odd at the same time with the buttons. I never have thought it was her eyesight but see that ecstasy would take what was happening and make ultra heighten her senses.

I do not think she would have taken drugs recreationally, but this could have easily been slipped to her.

I don't see this at all. I see a happy, excited young woman playing a game of hide and seek basically, preparing to jump out to surprise the person she's anticipating joining her in the elevator. I see playful antics, waving her arms, her whole body language tells me - happily, excited. Pushing all the buttons in the car is an old trick to keep the doors open for a while. She kept peeking out hoping to see the "friend", and eventually I think whoever that meet-up person was, they finally showed and lured her away to the left where she disappeared until we find her in the tank. She totally reminds me of a young, excited schoolgirl, playfully anticipating someone who she's happy to see. I do not see anything indicating drug inducement or psychosis and definitely not fear. I've observed that video several times and my impressions aren't wavering. Just my two cents.

 

[Chorley8]

expert thinks she was drugged-

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/444322/20130310/canadian-woman-elisa-lam-death-cecil-hotel.htm

"When asked about the possibility of drug use, Porrata told LA Weekly that it is "hard to say." That is all I need to know.

Thanks for this - so the two "disgusted" Plymouth tourists who by their own (unbelievable) admission stayed in a hotel for 8 days where the bath water ran "black" and the water had a strange "sweet" taste(search the woman's piano teacher pages and ask yourself if she looks like someone who would be inclined to do that not that anyone else would either) - they reappear in the news for receiving a gift of "330" British pounds (the article states this is the UK conversion of 500 dollars which it isn't, quite) from an American actor from the 1960s from the show Wild Wild West this possibly from the British point of view intended to lend irony.

Previously there were photos of them outside the hotel looking hapless and as if they were waiting.....to be photographed and interviewed. Wouldn't they have called a cab or flagged one down? They were already moving on, going to another hotel so how did the actor Conrad find them? The article says he came forward after hearing the story, to help them out. But surely they weren't waiting outside the hotel for 24 hours until the story surfaced.

Since LE was so careful to say they had no idea why Elisa was in LA as if stopping in LA between San Diego and Santa Cruz on a vacation would be an odd thing to do we can also ask what they were doing in LA. Spending at least two weeks there.

Not sleuthing them - but on the other hand we can all be looked up whether in the old days in the phone book or now on Facebook etc.

IMO the Plymouth tourists are actually a clue in the case....because if it is a tragic suicide or accident......or a cold blooded homicide...what need for media to mess with things it would be straightforward. I have no idea what this means but the themes that are being highlighted are 1. mental health 2. water pollution 3. purity of water 4. possibly derogatory element towards Chinese, and to itinerant single young women. 5. curious theme of bookstores and books which is interesting since Elisa seems so tech-aware and didn't have much money. 6. Book and film The Great Gatsby

Please look at the Elisa Lam Rotary Club photo if you search google images with that it would come up first to the left. This is the photo of her winning 800 dollars for a scholarship. I know photos can play tricks but this is less true of digital - is Elisa on a different plane, brighter more vibrant or am I imagining this? Look in particular at the pixellation of the faces.

 

[Conductor71]

I don't see this at all. I see a happy, excited young woman playing a game of hide and seek basically, preparing to jump out to surprise the person she's anticipating joining her in the elevator. I see playful antics, waving her arms, her whole body language tells me - happily, excited. Pushing all the buttons in the car is an old trick to keep the doors open for a while. She kept peeking out hoping to see the "friend", and eventually I think whoever that meet-up person was, they finally showed and lured her away to the left where she disappeared until we find her in the tank. She totally reminds me of a young, excited schoolgirl, playfully anticipating someone who she's happy to see. I do not see anything indicating drug inducement or psychosis and definitely not fear. I've observed that video several times and my impressions aren't wavering. Just my two cents.

I see your point, but I think "playful" is too strong a word for it. I see more of a languid relaxed state mixed with some anxiety. Have you ever had too much to drink, and you feel giddy, invincible but you are just starting to realize you have had too much kinda on the verge of feeling a loss of control. I could see this here in her. I am convinced this is not psychosis or outright hallucination, but I have always believed she could have been drugged. I also see some fear when she peers out of the elevator, she backs up which says to me she felt someone may startle her or worse if she turned her back on him. Backing into an elevator is not normal, imho.

Ecstasy is the perfect drug to give someone; it makes a person super calm and basically inhibits one to the point they have no fight or flight reaction. She would then most likely trust the perp and not run or scream. It is really quite horrible (even more so) if that was the purpose of drugging her (if she was).

 

[hello people]

I don't see this at all. I see a happy, excited young woman playing a game of hide and seek basically, preparing to jump out to surprise the person she's anticipating joining her in the elevator. I see playful antics, waving her arms, her whole body language tells me - happily, excited.

I don't see that at all.

I first saw the video with no prompting or knowledge of what it was about...I immediately thought she was on drugs.

There's nothing normal or happy or playful about that video.

It's a video of a woman off her dial on drugs.

And drugs are bad