How to get yourself & a child out of the school and into a vehicle?

[Calliope]

Respectfully, in a possible comparison about who Kyron would most likely obey, between TM and a stranger or someone he knows slightly, IMO he would be most likely to do what TM told him to do,rather than a stranger or someone he knows slightly. His level of trust would ---IMO-- be highest with TM. Yes to the fact that kids can be lured ; it's how pedophiles operate.

I think Kyron's level of trust would have been high in anyone he met in the school environment. (copying this over from the old general threads made before the current forum, because I'm too lazy to re-type it)



IMO, a kid in school is going to feel safe (as well they should!).

So here we have a situation where there are many kids, parents, volunteers and staff milling about. Kyron sees these "strangers" and even though he doesn't necessarily know them, logic would tell him that these people are "ok". After all, the school itself is allowing them to be around and interact with all the kids. A perfectly reasonable assumption on his part.

Knowing he's inside a safe place, surrounded by people he knows are there to watch out for him, his guard is going to be way down. In an environment like this, I have no doubt most adults wouldn't consider the 'stranger danger' element as they would elsewhere (which btw could explain why it seems no one noticed anything unusual). So why should we expect a 7 year old child to be any more vigilant??

Given these circumstances, someone with intentions on taking a child would already have a huge advantage, for not only the kids but adults as well would never in a million years expect that something like this could happen.

Now all that is left is for that predator to find a vulnerable child, one who is separated from the group, away from an adult, close to an exit.


I believe it's not out of the realm of possibility that this was a child predator, someone who is NOT an RSO (i.e. has never been caught). Someone who is either connected to the school (however peripherally that may be) and/or the neighborhood. Possibly even had children or siblings who attended the school, maybe even a former student. Whoever this person is, I think he caught kyron separated from others and close enough to an exit that he was able to lead him out of the school without being noticed (obviously).

Because of what I wrote above (that Kyron would have felt secure in this environment), I don't think he would have fought off this person until it was far too late. I also don't believe he would have necessarily had to recognize this person in order to be lured away.

*knocking on door just down from Kyron's class*

Hey, can you help me please? I'm late and I don't want my little boy to get in trouble because I forgot to bring his exhibit in. I have it over here in the car, it won't take but a minute if you don't mind holding the door open for me. Did you do an project too? What did you do it on? Frogs! How cool! Could you get the box out of the back seat? Yeah, that one on the floor there! Thanks!

*slam*

Now this assumes that Kyron wasn't the target, meaning someone didn't go there specifically to take him, just a vulnerable child. IF he was targeted by someone who knew him and was going after him, my thoughts are that it's someone connected to his hobbies, activities, clubs, etc., OR that of his parents or brother.

 

[nursebeeme]

However, we have no information that indicates that Kyron was given directions that contradicted anything TMH had told him to do.

I'm saying that I believe it is possible that Kyron was lured out of the school by a stranger or distant acquaintance and that it would not have been difficult to do so.

I thought this thread was about HOW you would get a child out of the building not on what has been reported?:waitasec:

 

[GrainneDhu]

My other point about the stranger abduction theory is that since we don't know how Kyron left the school, we don't know what he would or would not have done in response to a stranger's request designed to lure him out of the school.

From the hypothetical point of view of a stranger abduction, if Kyron had been wary and refused, the only consequences would have been a failed attempt. Just abort the attempt, leave the school and it is likely no one would have been the wiser.

I think I've provided adequate proof that cooperating with a stranger is well within the normal range of responses for children. We can't say that Kyron would or would not have cooperated because the evidence that he would not have was purely speculative in nature (adults who knew Kyron who said he was timid and knew stranger danger). Watch the ABC clip for four examples of children whose parents thought they would not have gone off with a stranger.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I thought this thread was about HOW you would get a child out of the building not on what has been reported?:waitasec:

As I and others have posted, the easiest and most obvious way would be that Kyron left on his own two feet, in a way that looked normal to any possible witnesses.

I think it's pretty obvious TMH could have done it by saying something like "Oh Kyron, we forgot your (something), let's go get it now."

It could have been only slightly more difficult for a nonfamily member to say something like "hey, I have a bunch of cookies for the talent show, can you help me bring them in?"

No matter who did it, the danger point was when Kyron was standing right next to the vehicle. If someone had seemed to notice the perp and Kyron walking out to the vehicle, then abort attempt, send Kyron back to the school. No harm done.

If no one noticed Kyron walking out with the perpetrator, then there was a short period of high risk right when Kyron was next to the vehicle. It would be imperative for the perpetrator not to be seen with Kyron near or in their vehicle.

But Kyron was a small child, much shorter than a car, van or SUV. He would be difficult to see between two parked vehicles.

If no one was within sight when the perpetrator and Kyron were standing there, it would take only a few seconds to either physically disable Kyron and place his unconscious body in the vehicle or just shove a conscious Kyron into the vehicle.

Once Kyron was in the vehicle, the perpetrator's risks would drop.

That high risk period would only last a few seconds.

 

[adh74]

Here's a scenario I have in my head...let's see if it works:

TH & Kyron arrive at the school ~8:15am. He's excited to show her his exhibit all set up at his desk (probably set up at the end of the day before). They go upstairs to his classroom, take his pic in front of his exhibit, check out a few others on the floor real quick, and TH leaves him at 8:45am as he's heading back to his classroom to join a small group and go see the rest of the exhibits. TH says goodbye to Kyron and leaves the school.
Whodunnit?
Thoery #1) TH. She siad goodbye, but didn't actually leave. Waited to see him walk past a common exit, and waved him to come to the car for an "appointment". (Maybe KH knew he'd have to leave early that day). Or, maybe she didn't say goodbye to Kyron, but told him she was going to go sign him out at the office (which she didn't really do, just told him that) while he does a quick tour with his classmates, and he was to meet her downstairs by the door in 20 minutes. He does the quick tour, he meets her by the door, and they are outta there. Nothing look unusual to anyone else, so nobody notices anything.

Theory #2) Kyron gets into a small group and goes out to see the rest of the exibits. Somewhere along the line, he is nabbed by "someone" (I'll post a few theories as to who "someone" could be in a minute). The volunteer who is responsible for the small group of kids in Kyron's group doesn't realize he's gone until they return to the classroom. So he may have been nabbed near one of the more common exits, therefore appearing "normal" to anyone who may have seen them (so it didn't register to anyone). Or, Kyron may have used a bathroom and been greeted by "someone" who rendered him powerless, stuffed him in a bag or box and walked out with him. There was so much chaos, no one noticed them, or it was a person who would normally be seen carrying a box/bag/garbage can/etc.

Thoery #3) A bit far fetched, but I'll put it out there anyway. Someone nabbed Kyron in the scanario #2. But...the reason why Kyron's teacher wasn't worried about him being missing after the volunteer returned with only 5 children is that the teacher was in on it and told the volunteer that he had probably gone to the bathroom or to get a drink, therefore defusing any drama with the volunteer. (Yeah, a bit out there, but the thought that the teacher was in on it....maybe with TH or with someone else...keeps crossing my mind).

 

[SleuthyMama]

I can't get past what I think is the ease with which I think TH could have gotten Kyron out of school. People that morning were busy doing their own thing and when you look like you belong somewhere, I don't think anyone bats an eyelash. How many times have we seen in movies/tv people pull off scams simply by dressing the part or looking like they belong? Walk with a purpose, move quickly, don't seem skittish, etc. A confident attitude is a powerful thing. "Fake it till you make it," if you will.

Looking back, AFTER a child is missing, I think it's easy for people to say "oh I would have noticed something amiss." I beg to differ. I think unless the behavior of the perp was so bizarre or strange that it was immediately apparent something was wrong, it would be quite simple to get a child, especially one you have a very familiar relationship with, to leave school grounds with you.

I think it is possible she sent Kyron one way down a hallway, telling him she had to go do something (perhaps speak to a teacher acquaintance, drop off paperwork in the main office, etc.) and that she would meet him at the truck.

She goes her way and exits the building, gets in the truck and drives over to the exit she has told him to meet her at and with that they are gone.

 

[Calliope]

IMO, any scenario (Terri took him, stranger abduction, someone connected somehow to the family or school) banks on the fact that a child (or kyron, if specifically targeted) would feel safe in his school, his guard would be down, and that other adults present would never suspect that something like this could ever happen. Plus the added bonus (for the perp, whoever it was) that the school was crowded with visitors who would be assumed to be safe. And, as pointed out by GrainneDhu, at any point it could have been aborted and no one would have been the wiser.

 

[PolyGraph]

The thing is, and here's what's driving me crazy, is that so far as we know, Kyron was last seen *inside* the school. There were people going in and out of the building. I keep looking at the pictures and I can't for the life of me figure out how to get a child into a vehicle and off the premises with that child never being seen.

I can see this. I was at a busy fourth of july picnic in a crowded park with my then four year old daughter. She was throwing a tantrumy fit and screaming her head off, I carried her to the car and put her inside (now anyone seeing this the way she was carrying on you would have thought I was abducting her) but no one said a word or seem to even notice what was happening, the whole incident proved to me that a child could be abducted in broad daylight with many people around and still no one pays attention. This happened on a few occasions, yes my baby girl is spoiled and is getting better though. But I totally can see this happening, however I dont think in a school th would have gotten away without at least someone saying hello to her or kyron or someone noticing since they would be looking after the children.

The key factor here is there would have been such a narrow window for a predator to take kyron (why would he be inside a school in the firstplace) I just find that theory implausible.

 

[carbuff]

I can see this. I was at a busy fourth of july picnic in a crowded park with my then four year old daughter. She was throwing a tantrumy fit and screaming her head off, I carried her to the car and put her inside (now anyone seeing this the way she was carrying on you would have thought I was abducting her) but no one said a word or seem to even notice what was happening, the whole incident proved to me that a child could be abducted in broad daylight with many people around and still no one pays attention. This happened on a few occasions, yes my baby girl is spoiled and is getting better though. But I totally can see this happening, however I dont think in a school th would have gotten away without at least someone saying hello to her or kyron or someone noticing since they would be looking after the children.

The key factor here is there would have been such a narrow window for a predator to take kyron (why would he be inside a school in the firstplace) I just find that theory implausible.

Why would he be inside a school?

Because he works there
Because he's related to another child
Because he's doing work there -- an electrician, for instance
Could even be somebody like a UPS driver/mailman making a delivery to the school office

 

[Calliope]

Why would he be inside a school?

Because he works there
Because he's related to another child
Because he's doing work there -- an electrician, for instance
Could even be somebody like a UPS driver/mailman making a delivery to the school office

GrainneDhu brought up a chilling scenario on another thread... a pedophile "grooming" a single parent with intentions of getting close to a child.

 

[carbuff]

GrainneDhu brought up a chilling scenario on another thread... a pedophile "grooming" a single parent with intentions of getting close to a child.

Yes, that would fit too. It is scary.

 

[PolyGraph]

Why would he be inside a school?

Because he works there
Because he's related to another child
Because he's doing work there -- an electrician, for instance
Could even be somebody like a UPS driver/mailman making a delivery to the school office

good points

 

[Lavender]

I’ve been thinking about a similar “mission”: How do you take a child to a school where you plan to later abduct him and also remove suspicion from yourself?

It seems that I’d need to accomplish 3 things in order to remove any suspicion of my involvement:

1. Ensure that I had plenty of witnesses who saw us both at the school prior to the start of class at 8:45.
2. Ensure that I had at least one witness see me leave the school without my child prior to 8:45.
3. Ensure that witnesses saw my child in the school AFTER I left so that I would not be accused of being the last person to see him.

So, I’m basically in the witness manipulation business to pull this off. How could I use the people at the expo to supply my alibi?

I’ve been thinking about the photos that TH took at the expo. More to the point, I’ve been thinking about the photos that weren’t taken (to my knowledge).

When I look at the photos TH took at the expo, they just don’t look like photos taken for the purpose of establishing an alibi. They look photos someone would take to simply document an event in a child’s life. If I was about to commit a crime and knew that the whereabouts of both me and my child were going to be examined, I’d make sure I had witnesses out the vuvuzela.

I’d take pictures that prominently feature other kids/parents/teachers in the background, especially adults. (Not pictures with people obscured in the background.) I’d hand my camera to a parent that I knew and ask her/him to take a picture of me with my child in front of the exhibit. I’d ask to see their child’s exhibit and take photos of them with their children in front of their exhibits. I’d also speak to people who knew me and strike up conversations that they would easily remember later if asked.

I’d also make a point of being seen leaving the school building alone. I wouldn’t risk leaving with my child, but would instruct my child to meet me outside later on. I’d linger near the most popular exit until a parent I knew was also leaving, and I’d strike up a conversation with that person on the way out so that they would also easily remember me leaving.

My overall point is, I don’t see the apparent lack of witnesses as an indication that TH was involved in Kyron's disappearance. I actually see the lack of photographs and witnesses as reason not to suspect TH. She would have had the opportunity to use the people around her to her advantage to establish her alibi and it doesn’t appear that she did that, IMO.

 

[Skully]

This will be my first attempt so here goes.

First, I am some one that isn't out of place there. I either work there, teach there, I belong there because of the fair or talent show (a parent dropping off my kids) so I am not considered a stranger.

I know the school has no cameras, that's big for me.

I don't have a criminal record or one anyone would know about.
I am not a level 3 SO, so I don't come up there.

I bring in a bag, duffel bag, because everyone is carrying things in and out. Maybe it's box, but I think a duffel bag.

I wait in the bathroom, after I drop my kid off or deliver something, or what ever my purpose it there, I head to the boy's bathroom. Has to be when the bell is ready to ring. Most kids are in class. But I know from being there that there is always one kid at some point alone in the bathroom. Today was the day.

When the right kid comes in, I pull out my tasser and put him out and into the duffel bag, and get out the door.

I go to my car, parked close to a doorway, not a main door, but a side door, and threw my bag in the trunk or van and off I go.

I want to add to this, I got a idea that he could have been placed on a bus that day too. If the buses are kept at the back of the school after the kids enter school, someone could have hidden him on a bus and until they could either get him out in a car or van, or taken a bus out of the parking lot. If there are buses they don't use or keep back there, maybe the keys are inside, and it would be noticed with all that was going on to just drive away with him. I don't suggest it was any of the bus drivers for any one reading here, just someone that if familiar with the buses and school.

 

[bdawk20]

Maybe someone watching saw him with TH....then approaches him right after TH leaves and says, for instance, "Is that your mom with the red hair? She fell in the parking lot, let me take you to her." - and he goes. Everything sounds far-fetched until you think like a 7 year-old. There are just so many possibilities.

 

[Skully]

Bumping. Lots of good ideas here.