I can't find a hole in this theory...

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What's new is that I was originally answering blefuscu's comment who was asking why Patsy would be so daff to use her own pad and pen in her own handwriting and implicate herself. I pointed out to blefuscu that they had to use what was in the house anyway, and that one could then make the same argument about John - why would he implicate himself... Yadda yadda. Chrishope chimed in with his questions from that.

I was not using any excuse to back up docg's theory for any reason. Chrishope backs up Docg's theory.... I am not committed to any theory.

Just because Chrishope happened to agree with a comment about the point I was trying to make to blefuscu does not mean I was using some pointless comment in agreement with docg. No.

Perhaps you should read the origin and beginning of the discussion a few pages back before you presume to know what you are talking about.

Whaleshark,
I apologise for getting it wrong. Hopefully you might see my general direction of travel, we want to deduce the small details, not generalize from them to Team Ramsey Laws that apply to the household. Anyway we need induction for that.

Now what side of bed did I fall out of today, LOL!


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No no, they'd never use each other's pads. They'd only ever use the one they had already been using. Especially since the pads are so very different, JR's being blue, and PR's being pink.

Chrishope,
And the color of the actual Ransom Note paper was?



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Lest we forget, Kolar has presented a 20 page Theory of Prosecution (his 2nd one - different from the one he gave to Lacy) currently in the hands of Boulder LE. He believes this case can be prosecuted to a resolution. Translation: To seek and indictment, JR has to be charged with murder - in some degree. The case is currently open as a murder investigation.
Burke and Patsy can't be charged with murder. JR can't be charged with lesser related crimes due to statute of limitations.

So, unless there is more direct evidence that is being withheld pending a prosecution, that leaves us to suspect the theory Kolar presented must now also include very well-substantiated circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence must always include responsible psychological and behavioral profiling - else why the need for the BAU and CASKU of the FBI.

History of this case leaves Kolar without optimism of it getting the resolution it deserves, i.e., two past DA's making gutless :moo: decisions
and the RST ability to squash everything that looks like a bug.

But Kolar also remains HOPEFUL, having taken a stand on truth as he knows it, and wanting to believe there can still be justice for JB.

midwest mama,
mmm, well profiling as evidence don't stack up in court, its mostly treated like other expert witness stuff, available for purchase, or sophisticated to embellish it.

Kolar must be holding back if he thinks he can put JR on the stand, with Patsy gone, irrefutable evidence has to be provided.

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It could also have been labeled "pad of paper", without reference to the "owner". It doesn'treally matter how it's labelled. The paper was available, to anyone.

Whaleshark has a good point, the paper wasn't under the exclusive control of PR. It was just a writing tablet in the R's house. It points to the Rs, but not to either one specifically. The "association" is just as strong for JR as for PR.

I disagree.

First, detectives are trained not to make ambiguous statements.

Second, depending on where the pads were kept and who actually had a history of using the items makes a difference. It doesn't preclude John using the pads but I'd say they were Patsy's pads based on location and customary usage and storage in "her space." It might be akin to saying John's shaving cream (if he had some) was also Patsy's. I could elaborate but surely I've made my point. Patsy would be more likely to use Patsy's stuff.
 
Excuse me for chiming in here. She could have used Burke's paper, JonBenet's paper, paper from John's desk, or from his computer printer. If my speculations are accurate, John's plan would in any case have included destroying the note after making a copy. Under these circumstances, the note would have been untraceable and no one would have known anything about a pad and pen from inside the house. What's hard to understand is why anyone would write a hand written note and then simply hand it over to the authorities, so they could determine it was written with materials from inside the house and examine the writing for a match. This is why it's impossible to believe they'd have called 911 so early if both were involved.

Once the body is out of the house, and the note destroyed, they would be home free and at that point it would have been safe to call in the cops.

She could have gone to the neighbor's and borrowed paper but most people gravitate toward the known, meaning the writer likely used what was handy and familiar. Since evidence on the whole indicates no Intruder it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who likely wrote the note, especially when one studies the statements and reports made by professional QDEs.

Most of what you said above is just another overly wordy argument along the lines of "there could be life on Mars, prove me wrong."
 
We can't get it into court by arguing, as kolar did, that Burke both sexually molested and killed his sister, with his parents then covering up by strangling her and writing a ransom note and then calling the police on themselves with the body still in the house. That's beyond bizarre, and Lacy was justified in dismissing it. No judge would allow it to get to a jury, it's simply beyond belief.
The reason why Mary Lacy uncritically dismissed any Ramsey involvement was because she had swallowed Lou Smit's intruder theory hook, line and sinker. An intruder theory which is totally bizarre and beyond belief, don't you think so?

It is the evidence alone which tells the truth in criminal cases; as for implausible scenarios staged by individuals involved in the killing of members of their own family - they are not as rare as you may think.
 
Wouldn't a cop be totally unmoved by sympathy and emotions and consider the killer to be the one who strangled? I sure do and think it would be very prosecutable since it is so heinous. If only it were proveable and anyone would try.
 
I disagree.

First, detectives are trained not to make ambiguous statements.

Second, depending on where the pads were kept and who actually had a history of using the items makes a difference. It doesn't preclude John using the pads but I'd say they were Patsy's pads based on location and customary usage and storage in "her space." It might be akin to saying John's shaving cream (if he had some) was also Patsy's. I could elaborate but surely I've made my point. Patsy would be more likely to use Patsy's stuff.


It's not a legal ownership issue. For that I'm quite happy to say it's Patsy's paper and sharpie pen. The issue is to what degree does it implicate PR more than JR. I think none. The paper was, as far as we know, available to anyone who chose to pick it up and write on it.

To put it differently, if PR wrote the RN we could say she wrote it on "her" paper with her pen, implicating herself. If JR wrote the note we'd say he wrote it with paper and pen from his home, implicating himself. It points back at either one of them. No one is going to say it's very unlikely JR wrote the note because it was on PR's paper. (Some people may have other reasons that lead them to think it's unlikely that JR wrote the RN.) It isn't really more likely that PR wrote the note because it's on her paper, JR could just as easily have written it on her paper. He may not even have realized who's pad of paper he'd picked up.

If the paper had a floral border, was perfumed, was actually pink, or had "From the desk of Patricia Ramsey" on it, then I'd agree JR would be less likely to use it (unless he wanted to implicate PR). It's just a generic writing tablet, that anyone could pick up and write on. It's the fact that it came from the Rs house that is important.

As an aside, i thought you weren't responding to me anymore?
 
On another thread there has been quite a discussion of the maglite vs a golf club as the instrument that was used on her skull. The golf club seems the more likely implement. The reason I mention it here is that the flashlight must have been wiped down for some reason, so could it be the flashlight was inserted in her vagina?

The flashlight is much too big to be used IMO. I'm pretty sure it was ruled out as a sexual device.

If the flashlight was involved at all then my guess is it would have been used to inflict the head wound but honestly? I just don't know.
 
We can't get it into court by arguing, as kolar did, that Burke both sexually molested and killed his sister, with his parents then covering up by strangling her and writing a ransom note and then calling the police on themselves with the body still in the house. That's beyond bizarre, and Lacy was justified in dismissing it. No judge would allow it to get to a jury, it's simply beyond belief.

Not only that, but you forget that Kolar conveniently (for john) points out that Burke couldn't be tried (too young) and john couldn't be tried as an accessory (statute of limitations), so even if you could find a judge willing to buy this absurd theory, there'd be no point in pursuing it.

That is NOT the way to resolve this case, sorry, it's a dead end.

First let's clarify - though Kolar wrote a book which includes information he gathered about the case, along with details that provide new information to the public, he DID NOT lay out his opinion in the book, of how the crime was committed, as you have indicated above.

His FIRST presentation to Lacy (which is not the same as the 20 page Theory of Prosecution that he compiled and placed into the hands of Boulder LE in 2011) ended abruptly when, after presenting evidence for nearly 6 hours, and with another 50 slides of evidence yet to be shown, Chief Kolar decided to "cut to the chase" as he states in his book, because at 7pm at night, without a break during the session, he sensed attention to the presentation was fading. Mind you, these are law enforcement professionals who had an obligation to review this material with the utmost credibility in order to pursue justice.

This then, is what Kolar writes in his book, pg 280:

"I felt, that given the above information (aspects of his presentation), we should be revisiting and intensifying our investigation of the involvement of the family. Among other things, we should be seeking the psychiatric records of Burke to determine if he had had any knowledge of the death of his sister, either through a grand jury or by asking the Ramseys for the information.

I believed wholeheartedly that this was a viable investigative lead that deserved pursuit. If nothing came of it, then as least we could say that we had covered all of our bases.

Mary Lacy's response is something that I will have difficulty ever forgetting.

She told me that she was unwilling to pursue that lead because she 'didn't want to harm her relationship with the Ramsey family.'

This response left me speechless, and it effectively ended the presentation. At that juncture, I felt that nothing more could be said, or done, that would sway Lacy from this position. "


For the records, all 'bolding' of Kolar's writing above is done by me. Because it looks to me, DocG, that Lacy dismissed what wasn't even Kolar's full presentation, based upon her personal desire of not wanting to rock the boat with the Ramseys, NOT based upon this case being too bizarre.

IMHO, there is NO CASE which should ever be considered too bizarre for prosecution when there is a suspect that can be brought to trial based upon a well-substantiated collection of ANY TYPE of collaborative evidence. If Kolar would not have believed this case has an avenue of prosecution, there would not be a Theory of Prosecution now in the hands of Boulder law enforcement.

There have been numerous DA's and judges throughout history who have "bought" the premises of many cases that may have seemed absurd to amateur sleuths like many of us, and those cases have gone on to a successful resolution. We have no right to pre-determine, or guess, the decisions of those significantly more qualified than we are as to whether a case can be tried or not.

And, I beg to differ, THERE IS A POINT IN PURSUING IT !! A beautiful six year old girl was murdered, and the murderer, who may very well be her father, John Ramsey, has not been tried and received a verdict. Should he stay 'Innocent until Proven Guilty' for the rest of his life, or should we continue to pursue seeing to it that he gets a fair trial in a court of law, and let a jury come to a final resolution of this case?

None of knows for sure what Kolar laid out in his current Theory of Prosecution. Who knows, maybe while he put his theory together, it ended up reading exactly like your scenario. Maybe he thought he'd better write it that way just to make sure it would really get considered by the DA and/or a judge as viable. Or maybe he didn't. Matters not, as long as there is HOPE this case can bring a charge of murder against John Ramsey, we must not accept this case is at a DEAD END.
 
midwest mama,
mmm, well profiling as evidence don't stack up in court, its mostly treated like other expert witness stuff, available for purchase, or sophisticated to embellish it.

Kolar must be holding back if he thinks he can put JR on the stand, with Patsy gone, irrefutable evidence has to be provided.

.

He has 30+ years of experience and is currently Chief U.S. Marshall Kolar. Do you think he would disclose some very critical evidence through a book he has written to the general public - especially knowing what Team Ramsey can do to whatever and whoever gets in their way?
 
He has 30+ years of experience and is currently Chief U.S. Marshall Kolar. Do you think he would disclose some very critical evidence through a book he has written to the general public - especially knowing what Team Ramsey can do to whatever and whoever gets in their way?

midwest mama,
I guess not, one wonders if he is using Burke to get to John, similar to Steve Thomas with his PDI?


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The flashlight is much too big to be used IMO. I'm pretty sure it was ruled out as a sexual device.

If the flashlight was involved at all then my guess is it would have been used to inflict the head wound but honestly? I just don't know.


OK, but just understand the size implications-

The flashlight has a barrel diameter of 1 and 9/16 inches (39.67mm)

The average engorged penis is 1.378 inches (35mm) (http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume5/j5_1_2.htm) IOWs the flashlight is about 3/16 of an inch larger in diameter than an average penis.

So one implication is that if the flashlight doesn't fit, a penis probably wouldn't either. Since there have been cases of 6 year olds being penetrated, it seems possible the flashlight could have been used that way. Tough of course there is a size at which insertion cannot be made, is that size really within 3/16 inches? Maybe. As Bonnette had pointed out earlier, repeated insertion of progressively larger objects can stretch the opening. Dr. Kirschner said the vaginal opening was twice the normal size for a girl that age.

The doctors seem to think the injuries suggest digital penetration, and I'll go along with that.

As an aside, I was a juror on a case, less than a year ago, which involved penile penetration of an 8 year old.
 
Since there have been cases of 6 year olds being penetrated, it seems possible the flashlight could have been used that way... As Bonnette had pointed out earlier, repeated insertion of progressively larger objects can stretch the opening. Dr. Kirschner said the vaginal opening was twice the normal size for a girl that age...As an aside, I was a juror on a case, less than a year ago, which involved penile penetration of an 8 year old.
The world's youngest mother was 5 years old (Lina Medina in Peru), and there are two 6-year-olds who've given birth (Liza Gryshchenko in the Ukraine and a girl only identified as "H" in New Delhi). Many, many 8-year-olds have had babies. They didn't get that way by digital penetration, and as Chrishope says, the flashlight barrel is within the parameters of an erect penis. I don't assert that JBR was fully penetrated by either a penis or a flashlight, but sexual abuse often involves serial probing and experimentation along those lines - the hymen can be pushed aside (as JBR's was) in such cases, as opposed to tearing.

Sitting as a juror on that court case must have been really difficult, Chrishope.
 
I understand how you feel and I strongly agree that the case should not be dropped simply because of disagreements regarding who did what. In my blog, I've laid out a compromise course that might hopefully be supported by people like yourself, or in fact any of those posting here, including PDI's. Here's the gist of my argument:

(from Patsy and John)

In other words, even if you are convinced Patsy killed her daughter OR Burke did it, regardless, we have enough evidence to go after John and that's really all that's needed. If he was covering for either Patsy or Burke, he would have ample opportunity to defend such a claim in a court of law (or a Grand Jury).

As I see it, therefore, we don't really need to argue for or against PDI or BDI in order to press for the indictment and prosecution of John Ramsey. Read the entire post for the details.

:woohoo: DocG - Have to thank you for this great post!! And I can agree with quite a bit of what you say. :dance: All should read the blog page you referenced in your post!

Bottom line, there are lots of us here at WS who want to see JR be prosecuted and the task remains for us to figure out how we can help set the rusty wheels of justice into motion on this case. Pray there comes a clear road sometime soon that will lead to getting Boulder LE to take a hard, long look at any documents that would bring an indictment against JR.:please:
 
The world's youngest mother was 5 years old (Lina Medina in Peru), and there are two 6-year-olds who've given birth (Liza Gryshchenko in the Ukraine and a girl only identified as "H" in New Delhi). Many, many 8-year-olds have had babies. They didn't get that way by digital penetration, and as Chrishope says, the flashlight barrel is within the parameters of an erect penis. I don't assert that JBR was fully penetrated by either a penis or a flashlight, but sexual abuse often involves serial probing and experimentation along those lines - the hymen can be pushed aside (as JBR's was) in such cases, as opposed to tearing.

Sitting as a juror on that court case must have been really difficult, Chrishope.


Put it this way, taking a long hot shower every night I still felt dirty.
 
Put it this way, taking a long hot shower every night I still felt dirty.

Hats off to you Crishope. It's gotta be tough knowing JB still hasn't been vindicated. Your fervor for this case is understandable.

It's time to get JR where he belongs! :jail:


:moo:
 
As i understand it, the consensus was that she was digitally penetrated and the birefringent material was due to secondary transfer from the paintbrush handle via the finger of her attacker. If she had been penetrated by the handle itself her injuries would have been more severe and there would have been a lot more bleeding.
If memory serves, Dr. McCann's assessment was that the acute genital wound had been inflicted with an object that had been jabbed in, which imo points to the paintbrush stick having been used to do this.
 
[snip]

First, detectives are trained not to make ambiguous statements.
[snip]

I want to clarify the above part of my statement. Precise wording is used when making forensic-quality statements. If it might be used in court the statement will be exact with exact meaning. There should be no ambiguous wording, no room for the reader or juror to imagine the deponent meant one thing but said another.

Sorry for the ambiguous statement I made. Hope that clears up my boo-boo. I know PR Officers are ambiguous all the time when they speak on television. :D
 

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