IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12

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I don't think there was a struggle. For all that Aunt TB says she taught the girls how to resist, there's no way to know if an individual will fight back until the time comes.

If there had been a struggle, I would expect to see blood, maybe hair, maybe bits of ripped fabric. The reason I'd expect to see blood is because the trail is paved. Being knocked off her feet would probably make either girl bleed since they were both apparently wearing short sleeved shirts and shorts.

I have to agree with this. Even a skinned knee or two would leave microscopic pieces of skin, blood and DNA on the path. Did LE test the path for blood traces, skin residue, etc?
 
Just to re-iterate: I don't think we don't know exactly where the bikes were found, nor in what condition.

A witness reported them laying across the trail, the police spokesperson says they were leaning on a fence when he arrived.

I'm inclined to believe that when the bikes were found, the assumption was towards a drowning, and so the scene was not considered a crime scene. Knowing the family had been down there, and that the purse was found nearby, it is feasible to me that the bikes had been picked up and leaned against the fence before Abben (LE spokesperson) showed up.

And, we don't know if "by the gate" means right outside the gate, or several feet east or west of the gate. We've been told, I believe, where the purse was found in relation to the bikes, but not exactly where the bikes were.

Unless I missed something, which is completely possible at this point.

I thought maybe a good samaritan or older kids might have moved them from the path to the fence. I would think someone would have come forward at this point. Maybe, they have and we don't know about it.
 
"The police request concerning the man and the white van prompted a flood of calls to police in Cedar Rapids, Dubuque and Evansdale. None of the calls has resulted in an arrest".

Were police hoping this guys pic and van would lead to an arrest with some tips on this guy?


"“From a law enforcement perspective, I don’t want to divulge too much information because the more hints and clues we put out there, the more we tip our hand,” he said. “The suspect is reading the paper and watching TV, too. You don’t want to give away so much that the suspect flees. That’s the last thing you want.”"


Great now the suspect might get it in his head to flee. IMO Do they have a suspect that they believe is still in the area?

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...75/1001/NEWS/?odyssey=nav|head&nclick_check=1

That wasn't a local law enforcement official that made the statement, but I believe, from New Jersey.

"Authorities have reason to be vague, said Walter Zalisko, a Fort Myers, Fla., private investigator and former Jersey City, N.J., police chief.

“From a law enforcement perspective, I don’t want to divulge too much information because the more hints and clues we put out there, the more we tip our hand,” he said. “The suspect is reading the paper and watching TV, too. You don’t want to give away so much that the suspect flees. That’s the last thing you want.”
 
I would think dropping to the ground would put anyone at a disadvantage, unless they are approached on foot. Most cops will tell women and children if they're approached by a person in a vehicle to run like hell, most likely the predator will not get out of the car to chase them down. And don't go close enough to the vehicle that they can grab you.
In the scenario of someone walking up to an intended victim and grabbing their arm, it might work to drop to the ground, yell, scream, kick, bite... anything that would attract attention of other pedestrians.

One poster claims that if the predator demands that you get in the vehicle, to stand your ground and refuse. Their reasoning is that it is better to be shot and killed right there than to be taken to a remote place and raped, then killed. I disagree, I think it's better to run like hell... most predators are not going to bother getting out of the car to chase an intended victim, and not very likely to shoot someone for refusing to get in the vehicle. But even IF they shot at you, it's much harder to hit a moving target, at least fatally, unless you're got very good aim.
I guess it all depends on what the situation is. Predictably, not very many people will remember what to do if they're in a panic, but drumming it into kids' heads can't hurt. And it might help.

Good post. I think many people are trained to drop to the ground...that comes after attempting to run. If you are caught, then you drop to the ground. If the perp has you and is trying to drag you into a vehicle, dropping to the ground makes this task much harder. It is about gravity, weight distribution and kinesics (or the body’s ability to function to lift, carry, etc using poor body mechanics). So, yes, if someone grabs you, it is so much harder to lift or drag say 100 lbs off the ground, then to grab that person at the perps waist level and heave. As a parent, if you have ever have had a child do what I call melting or floppy kid when they don't get their way, most of us can understand how hard it is to pick up that child off the floor...LOL. Even a toddler can be hard to pick-up. So dropping to the ground, can save lives if the perp already has you.

If a predator demands you get into a vehicle, studies have shown that it is best to avoid that at all costs, even at risk of your life. The reason being is most predators have a "plan" in their minds that they have fantasized about, enjoy and finally get the energy to act on. It starts with day dreaming, then they get so attached to that scenario, they must act on it to ease or satisfy the turmoil in side. That is why people have MO's or commit similar crimes...it is that obsession and psychological attachment to a certain scenario in their heads. Part of what they are doing by moving a victim from point A is acting on this plan and fantasy they created in their heads so they can be at point B where they can get off on their fantasy. Once you are in a vehicle, your future is pretty much predetermined. Some people think they can talk their way out of things or comply to live, but if the perp thinks death is part of his plan, it is part of the plan. By not getting in the vehicle you disrupt the pre-planned scenario. Often when perps fantasize, they don't plan for the victim to fight back. So, by refusing to get in a vehicle you actually save your own life, by disrupting the perp’s plans and throwing of the power balance.

I think with both of the run like hell scenarios, if you have the chance, do run like hell. However, most training recognizes that usually by the time the person realizes they are in danger; they actually are restrained or physically controlled by the perp. I think the run like hell thing IS omitted, because in most situations where you need life-saving training, having too many steps...like run, if that does not work do this, if that does not work try this, etc...Can cause more confusion with the victim and actually make them more likely to forget every type of training, self doubt themselves, the victims mind often underestimates the level of threat or goes into a denial state and easily play into the perps hands. The purpose of training is to give very simple steps the average person can utilize in a horrific situation where they do not have time or mental clarity to process things. Kind of like Fire safety….Stop, Drop, Roll. Simple, people can remember that in crisis most of the time.
 
"The police request concerning the man and the white van prompted a flood of calls to police in Cedar Rapids, Dubuque and Evansdale. None of the calls has resulted in an arrest".

Were police hoping this guys pic and van would lead to an arrest with some tips on this guy?


"“From a law enforcement perspective, I don’t want to divulge too much information because the more hints and clues we put out there, the more we tip our hand,” he said. “The suspect is reading the paper and watching TV, too. You don’t want to give away so much that the suspect flees. That’s the last thing you want.”"


Great now the suspect might get it in his head to flee. IMO Do they have a suspect that they believe is still in the area?

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...75/1001/NEWS/?odyssey=nav|head&nclick_check=1


i thought the same thing but when i read the article it is not a quote of evansdale le, its an opinion of le in florida... i would assume that he is speaking of le in general and what they share with the media...
 
Sounds good in theory, doesn't it? But no matter how many incentives and laws are put into place, it's not going to matter to some people, they're going to keep on with the way they've always done it, because that's the way they' were raised.

A friend of mine once made the statement that the law has it wired all wrong. It should take a few thousand dollars to buy a marriage license and a few bucks to get a divorce. That way, there wouldn't be so many divorces because the common person couldn't afford to get married in the first place.

Seems to me that it's becoming more rare for children to grow up in homes with both parents these days, and that the nuclear family is quickly becoming outnumbered by blended families, or families with only one parent and either a stepparent or boyfriend or some such. And the homes where some type of abuse is going on is not as rare as some people think. SAD!

Laws do not help people who need resources to break cycles of poverty, violence or broken homes. Laws are there to exclude certain groups of people. In fact laws and the fines that come after breaking them only create more tension, suffering and strife in families that need help. Certain legal fines have shown to increase in home violence due to tapping needed and limited resources that could be used for food, shelter, etc. In our society we like to include and exclude to make us feel better. A law isn't going to help a man stop beating a woman or a drug addict get the help they need to create a stable home. A law only drives the behavior underground, because it is fear based and offers no solutions to any situation. Laws create secrecy in society and often sever any hope of a victim being brave enough to seek help. There is no focus on rehabilitation in our nation. Prison-Industrial complex comes to mind for me.
 
I really feel the girls are alive and being held in a home very close to the area of Maiden Lane. I find it hard to believe someone passing through Evansdale would risk such an abduction. This had to be someone who knew the geographic layout of the park and how to pull this off without being seen.

With this theory, the perp may have been a shift worker, self-employed, unemployed or retired and imo is living alone.

If the abduction was on one of the streets in Evansdale, then I think it is very feasible it was a stranger passing through the town.

Because the timeline is so fast, makes me think it is a local person.

Just IMO

I think historically in many cases, a predator is very well adept at surveying a scene for 24-48 hours and pulling of a crime. It would not take much to figure out the area, etc. It could be anyone, local or not. The question for me is, were these girls the target or was it that any girl or girls will do.
 
Here's another shot of the same area - between jetty and woods. All the muddy/gravel spots that these men are walking on would have been under water on the day the girls disappeared. You can see that there's not much to work with between the lake and the fence. Its not an impossible walk, but with shorts/flip-flops, and being in a hurry (had to be home well before 1:30), it just seems very unlikely to me they would leave their bikes on the path to traverse that area.

This just came to me, considering the paddleboat which I had all but dismissed earlier: what if Lyric was meeting an internet/real friend down by the lake. He says go out on the jetty and I'll pick you up and give you a ride to the shore (in the woods). There's not room for Lizzie, and she's just tagging along besides, so she manages to get over to the woods - by this ^^ treacherous walk, by climbing the fence, or by walking around it. And while she's sitting waiting for Lyric to get off the boat (might take 5 mins to get in, paddle to shore, get out), she puts down her purse assuming she'll be back to grab it. Once out of the boat, Lyric is joined by Lizzie, and suddenly they are alone in the woods with a friend-turned-perp. Just a theory that came to me, as always, pure speculation.

If I understand correctly, then it sounds like the bikes were at the gate and the gate was unlocked. If we add nothing to the information that we know to be true, then given that Elizabeth's purse was on the lakeside of the fence, it's possible that the girls went through the gate. Once through the gate, the terrain is difficult to manage for a number of reasons: the plants/weeds are difficult to walk on (especially wearing flipflops), and the ground between the fence and the water is very narrow.

Elizabeth has a purse, Lyric isn't carrying anything. It's unlikely that Elizabeth threw her purse over the fence because of the risk of accidentally throwing it into the water. The purse is put on the ground 20 feet from the bikes/gate. If Elizabeth could ride a bike while carrying her purse, why couldn't she walk along the fence carrying her purse?

Now we have two young girls standing by the water with no way to go anywhere easily. The only way that the disappearance seems to make sense is by adding a boat, but how does someone put the boat away, or back where it came from, while controlling the girls in a short time frame? Furthermore, there's no confirmation of a boat.

If they met/encountered someone at the gate that took them through the gate and walked behind them, pushing them along, even though the terrain was difficult, that makes sense. Someone could have told Elizabeth to leave her purse near the bikes because she could pick it up later when she came back. Or, we could add the paddle boat to the scenario and that explains how the girls left the gate area.
 
I wanted to let everyone know that the NASCAR race in Pocono is on rain delay. That means they have a LOT of air time to waste on ESPN. Hopefully that means more attention for our girls when they interview the 2 drivers featuring them on their cars!!
 
What was the name of the witness on the bike again?
 
Sounds good in theory, doesn't it? But no matter how many incentives and laws are put into place, it's not going to matter to some people, they're going to keep on with the way they've always done it, because that's the way they' were raised.

A friend of mine once made the statement that the law has it wired all wrong. It should take a few thousand dollars to buy a marriage license and a few bucks to get a divorce. That way, there wouldn't be so many divorces because the common person couldn't afford to get married in the first place.

Seems to me that it's becoming more rare for children to grow up in homes with both parents these days, and that the nuclear family is quickly becoming outnumbered by blended families, or families with only one parent and either a stepparent or boyfriend or some such. And the homes where some type of abuse is going on is not as rare as some people think. SAD!

Nothing is going to cure all problems, but our do-nothing approach has led to a lot of ignorance that is completely avoidable. We DO force people to go to educational classes for things like anger management and drunk driving, but only AFTER they commit the offense.

We offer all kinds of incentives in our society to encourage behavior we want, from getting farmers to grow crops we want to getting sports teams to locate in our towns. If we really cared about kids, we would quit with business as usual and start getting creative about how to chip away at this generational cycle. It takes time but I am old enough to know that it can be done. Already, I see things that used to be common in my childhood are better in our society at large.

About the comment someone made upthread about their dog, I would bring that dog out to the lake right now and see what he/she would do - like the Chihuahua. Couldn't hurt.

Also, from the photos and others' posts, I now think there were two perps. With luck, one will say something to someone about it. It reminds me of the abduction of the math teacher in Wyoming, just a crime of opportunity and two guys in a truck. Two guys see the girls on the bikes, follow them towards the lake, and figure out how to abduct them through the woods. Maybe one parks the truck and comes through the woods while the other steals the paddleboat and rides towards them. Now the girls are between the two men. The guy in the boat disembarks and the edge and herds/leads them towards the woods to "see a baby deer" or something like that. It's easy for two guys to take two girls.
 
If you look at this house and inside photos of home (which is currently for sale) on evans rd s.. It seems very close to crime scene u can see one photos from inside the home looking out to the back of the lake ..how close it appears ? Its seems there would be a view of this area of the jetty?? HOw good Im not sure..People who live out there would know more From my view it looks pretty close Boatable In a small window of time or I could be TOTALLY off on this one of course. :/ and seeing area off map and houses all together wrong.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1218-S-Evans-Rd-Evansdale-IA-50707/76636880_zpid/
 
If you look at this house and inside photos of home (which is currently for sale) on evans rd s.. It seems very close to crime scene u can see one photos from inside the home looking out to the back of the lake ..how close it appears ? Its seems there would be a view of this area of the jetty?? HOw good Im not sure..People who live out there would know more From my view it looks pretty close Boatable In a small window of time. I could be off on this one of course. :/
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1218-S-Evans-Rd-Evansdale-IA-50707/76636880_zpid/

I posted all about this about two weeks ago. The kitchen window where the table is looks out right to where the bikes were found. I always thought this house was involved in some way.
 
What was the name of the witness on the bike again?

I am not sure if we know it or we are allowed to post it on here as he has been cleared by LE. But, I could be wrong...
 
If you look at this house and inside photos of home (which is currently for sale) on evans rd s.. It seems very close to crime scene u can see one photos from inside the home looking out to the back of the lake ..how close it appears ? Its seems there would be a view of this area of the jetty?? HOw good Im not sure..People who live out there would know more From my view it looks pretty close Boatable In a small window of time or I could be TOTALLY off on this one of course. :/ and seeing area off map and houses all together wrong.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1218-S-Evans-Rd-Evansdale-IA-50707/76636880_zpid/

I posted all about this about two weeks ago. The kitchen window where the table is looks out right to where the bikes were found. I always thought this house was involved in some way.


Now that is something interesting. Very. It is possible someone with access to that home...real estate agent, contractor, etc may know something. I wonder if LE tracked the lock-box usage on the house (if there is one). Or if the agent listed for the house has records of other agents, even from out of the area who wanted to "show" the house and knew the code for access purposes. Just about anyone can get a real estate license if they try hard enough. Just about anyone can peer over the agents shoulder and see the code to the lock box. If the house is shown frequently, the neighbors may tune out the traffic in and out of the house...
 
Can we please try not to blow margins? Try previewing your post with pic first and if it can't be adjusted, just provide the link and a description of where it is located. Trying to read a lengthy post when this happens is excruciating. Thank you.
 
Laws do not help people who need resources to break cycles of poverty, violence or broken homes. Laws are there to exclude certain groups of people. In fact laws and the fines that come after breaking them only create more tension, suffering and strife in families that need help. Certain legal fines have shown to increase in home violence due to tapping needed and limited resources that could be used for food, shelter, etc. In our society we like to include and exclude to make us feel better. A law isn't going to help a man stop beating a woman or a drug addict get the help they need to create a stable home. A law only drives the behavior underground, because it is fear based and offers no solutions to any situation. Laws create secrecy in society and often sever any hope of a victim being brave enough to seek help. There is no focus on rehabilitation in our nation. Prison-Industrial complex comes to mind for me.

Truer words were never spoken. I know a couple where the husband got in some legal trouble. Between his fines and hiring a lawyer it wiped out alot of their savings, he lost his job and now with his record he can't seem to find another one. This was not a violent crime but the resources this has cost them is almost criminal on the courts part. He paid his debt to society but its far from over for them. I believe some laws need to be changed and I don't think its fair to keep paying forever for one mistake. IMO
 
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