IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12

[Thinkzerz]

BBM - every time I read that description, I can see it in my head. A girl on the floor on her stomach, face down, a knee on the back of her neck to hold her there, then her arm gets twisted back behind her and eventually, her finger is broken.

Does that not sound to everyone else the same as it sounds to me?

It's like she threatened to do something he didn't like, and so he got her down and immobile, then twisted her arm back and told her that if she didn't take it back, he'd break her finger.

I guess she would've stood her ground, seeing as how it ended up broken.

Am I the only one who can't see this any other way?

I see it that way.

 

[azuredewdrop]

That's very devious. So the grandmother thinks that they and their bikes were grabbed while crossing a street along the trail between home and the gate. The perps then drove the short distance down Maiden Lane (had to be familiar with the area), one person held the girls while the other carried two bikes down the lane, along the water, through the gate and left the purse nearby ... all a plan to delay any real search for the girls ... which wasn't really delayed because more than a thousand volunteers covered 12 arcres over two weekends. It did perplex everyone ... if the bikes had been left on the side of the road, the lake wouldn't have been drained ... which obviously took valuable time.

I finally understand the discussion about whether boys and girls use a kickstand. I'd have to say that girls use a kickstand and boys are laying their bikes on the ground as they step off the pedal. If the cyclist's tip is related to the girl's bikes, and the bikes were laying on the ground, I could believe that someone else put them there. I had never considered the possibility that they and their bikes were grabbed on the way to the park, or that the perps were so devious.

I'm going to look at the maps and see which roads we might be looking at ...

meh..it depends on the kid (believe me I have 7).

My son always tossed his bike down everywhere
My 3 girly girls use the kickstand
My 3 tomboys toss their bikes, no kickstand.

 

[taagean]

We have to remember the LE stated that they found the girls' bikes, but they aren't sure that the girls were actually there. Also, if there are no more searches being carried out, they must have reason to feel that the girls have been abducted and taken away from Evansdale area. I agree with the other posters and grandma that the girls were taken before the lake and the bikes were placed on the bike trail.

 

[auntiejoe]

I think it was someone that said hey girls come and look at this and they DID!

I dont think they were grabbed but walked over to the guy and that was it
Im just very surprised no one saw anything and if the girls didnt know this guy im sure they screamed!

Its very strange!

And the family had to know these girls went to the lake cause thats the first place they looked!

Yup just walked right over to person and they were taken. IMO


((My computer is very slow) Gotta reboot it or something... :banghead: BBL

 

[nervous_nellie]

I guess but we have a trillion lawn guys during the summer.
It wouldnt have to be lawn guys but roofers, painters, etc etc!
Any group that would go down to the lake and have lunch I would think could be outdoor workers!

i agree, i was just thinking about how ollipop had said that he has lived there for a number of years and was familiar with the lake trail but never realized there was the area where a car could have parked... so it seems that one would have to know that area was there in the first place if its not obvious to someone just walking the trail ...

 

[paris_paris]

meh..it depends on the kid (believe me I have 7).

My son always tossed his bike down everywhere
My 3 girly girls use the kickstand
My 3 tomboys toss their bikes, no kickstand.

2 boys here. Never used the kickstands. They always sped up the driveway and jumped off while it was still rolling, letting the bike hit the garage door. They liked the sound it made. Mom did not.

 

[nervous_nellie]

I think it was someone that said hey girls come and look at this and they DID!

I dont think they were grabbed but walked over to the guy and that was it
Im just very surprised no one saw anything and if the girls didnt know this guy im sure they screamed!

Its very strange!

And the family had to know these girls went to the lake cause thats the first place they looked!

actually iirc the family said that this lake area was the last place that they looked... dont have a link handy will have to dig..

 

[CHERIE.T]

Iirc, during one of the first interviews, one of the moms immediately said go to the lake and look for the girls.
Imoo

 

[Marnie]

The picture is on page 27 and post number 664 of this thread. If the lake was as high as the watermarks and up to the weeds as the wet earth would indicate, there would not be much room for a car.

Here is a picture of the police car on the trail.

Sorry, I'm a few pages behind, but thought I would post this as I went along.

First: that big police cruiser had to enter the trail from somewhere easterly of the gate. I doubt it could turn around on the trail but would have to continue to a point of exit.

Second:

Officials follow the bike trail around Meyer Lake, while passers-by look on at the draining lake in Evansdale, Iowa as the search for missing cousins Lyric Cook-Morrissey, 10, of Waterloo, and Elizabeth Collins, 8, of Evansdale on Thursday, July 19, 2012 in Evansdale, Iowa. (AP Photo/The Waterloo Courier, Dawn J. Sagert)

Photo taken from a slide show. #39 of 116: http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ap...te=20120715&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=715006&Ref=PH

Seems to me an ATV wouldn't have a real tough time turning around on the bike path or even passing around bikes on the path. Just thought that this was interesting.

 

[cluciano63]

I find it impossible to believe that any meth dealers, etc. have holed up with these girls for going on a month now. This seems to me to be a sexually-motivated crime and most crimes of this type do not have happy endings. IMO, either some monster has them both, doing things we don't want to think about it, or they are deceased and probably within a 20-mile radius of where they were taken.

Just hoping they are found soon.

 

[Sunlight]

So....LE wants more detail....Well, then there gonna have to give the public a bit more, because it won't be long before everyone stops giving tips because they don't know what kind of tips to give.

Considering that LE put a stop to the volunteer searches...considering the monitoring devices FBI has available to watch, follow, listen...I believe LE has a definite theory, and the tips they are looking for are ones that can prove their theory, and they are not getting them...or, if they are, they are not saying. LE will do nothing until they have a case that will stick. MOO

 

[azuredewdrop]

OFF TOPIC -Was Shawn Hornbeck's kidnapper known to the family or was it a complete stranger. Actually all these kids that were abducted and found, were the kidnappers known to the family.

Jaycee Dugard, Scott Hornbeck, Elizabeth Smart, Steven Stainer, and Shasta Groene

Jaycee Dugard - Haven't found anything that says they were known
Shawn Hornbeck - I am not finding anything that says that Michael Devlin knew Shawn or his family
Elizabeth Smart - yes - he had been at the home doing odd jobs
Steven Stayner - No
Shasta Groene - can't find anything that says that duncan knew the Groene family maybe somebody knows this?

 

[GGE]

Please don't take offense, but I think that this is just nothing but speculation.....there could be a million reasons that led to this incident.

I also know that speculation occurs on some level in cases like this, but I am amazed at just how much speculation has gone on and most all of it is false.

No offense taken, no worries! Everything I post here is speculation, unless I have a link included. I just sometimes forget to add on "IMO" or "IMHO" or "JMO" or "MOO", probably because lately without having any new information to go on, we're ALL just speculating anyway. :twocents:

(ETA: despite what it might sound like with the speculative post of mine we're talking about, I don't actually think he had anything to do with the girls going missing. Don't want anyone to think that.)

 

[GrainneDhu]

I just made it to pg 28 of the current thread. Not sure how far behind I am, but its at least 10 pages. I've only just gotten to my own comments I'd made last night, and I see I've been brought up by certain sleuthers as a possible movie-style suspect. Believe me, I agree, and have had the same thoughts (that maybe LE would come looking for the local guy who's out taking pics, walking through the woods, etc, and is on the internet 23 hours a day sleuthing). But I assure you I am uninvolved. My info is on file at WS, I have spoken to an admin by phone, and anyone is welcome to call on me or stop by any time if they want to alleviate any concern. I should warn ya, tho, that I spend an awful lot of time in my underwear.

But, alas, LE has yet to arrive. Today I looked out the window and saw the E'dale Police SUV blocking my driveway (still in the street.) I peered out the curtains, and off he went. I watched him, he was on the radio, and I think he was speed-trapping someone driving down Gilbert. At any rate, I am still frustrated that LE has not bothered to at least knock on my door, ask to search my garage, my yard, whatever.

When I heard that the FBI had "gone back to the lake," I felt myself feeling satisfaction that perhaps they were finally acting on the lead from the guy who said he saw tire tracks and energy drink cans back there. Maybe, who knows. But then I felt guilty for letting my ego swell up. LE got my info as well, so I figured if my tip where so valuable they'd come knocking.

I'll wait here I guess. Reading. Always reading. My goodness why can I read 20 pages of a book in an hour but 20 pages of internet forum seems to take me 2 days? I'm not even going to look to see how far behind I am, but know that I likely won't even get to the post immediately before this one until tomorrow sometime.

And MNdad: I totally feel ya. Incomprehensible how this monster of a case has gripped me as well.

Hey Ollipop, it's better to run around in your skivvies than have jeans that droop off your butt (I will never get that fad).

I wonder if LE is just choosing to skip over searching homes that obviously have children on the theory that if Mom or Dad acquired them two new sisters, the kids would tell.

The reason why a book goes faster to read than WS for me is that with each post comes a decision "to reply or not to reply?" I probably start 5 replies for every one I post, then decide that what I had to say was not really interesting or important to others.

I, too, am utterly gripped with this mystery. Where could the girls be?

 

[Eileen730]

Iirc, during one of the first interviews, one of the moms immediately said go to the lake and look for the girls.
Imoo

thats what i remember also!

 

[GrainneDhu]

OFF TOPIC -Was Shawn Hornbeck's kidnapper known to the family or was it a complete stranger. Actually all these kids that were abducted and found, were the kidnappers known to the family.

Jaycee Dugard, Scott Hornbeck, Elizabeth Smart, Steven Stainer, and Shasta Groene

The only one out of that group that had prior contact with the perp was Elizabeth Smart. Brian Mitchell was preaching and panhandling in Salt Lake City when Lois Smart offered to hire him to do a few chores outside the Smart home. If you've read anything about the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints (Warren Jeffs et al), you realise that Mitchell just took their practises one small step further.

Jaycee Dugard, Shawn Hornbeck, Ben Ownby and Steven Staynor were all victims of opportunity. They just happened to be in the spot where the predator was hunting and fit the predator's mental profile.

Shasta Groene was the only one who was stalked ahead of time. Joseph Duncan saw the children playing outside from the interstate as he drove by and spent a few days scouting out their house, etc, before he struck. However, Duncan also had a history of grabbing opportunistic victims as well.

 

[Thinkzerz]

The only one out of that group that had prior contact with the perp was Elizabeth Smart. Brian Mitchell was preaching and panhandling in Salt Lake City when Lois Smart offered to hire him to do a few chores outside the Smart home. If you've read anything about the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints (Warren Jeffs et al), you realise that Mitchell just took their practises one small step further.

Jaycee Dugard, Shawn Hornbeck, Ben Ownby and Steven Staynor were all victims of opportunity. They just happened to be in the spot where the predator was hunting and fit the predator's mental profile.

Shasta Groene was the only one who was stalked ahead of time. Joseph Duncan saw the children playing outside from the interstate as he drove by and spent a few days scouting out their house, etc, before he struck. However, Duncan also had a history of grabbing opportunistic victims as well.

Well doesn't this just throw statistics out the window? :what: If you add all the other kids missing without a trace?
From my understanding,most kidnappings are someone known to the family.

 

[MotherOcean]

actually iirc the family said that this lake area was the last place that they looked... dont have a link handy will have to dig..

WC searched several areas, including the surrounding parks. It was after she had finished that and during her second trip out (after DC called WC & TB and told them to come back and help) that TB said to go to the lake (she had a "gut feeling").

 

[elmomom]

One problem with the statistics is that it is for ALL abductions. That includes all the ones where from the get-go it is known exactly who took the kid - like an ex-spouse - and those greatly outnumber the cases where the kid is truly just missing, with no idea of what happened or who took them. So, when it is said that the majority of abductions are done by a family member, we have no idea if this refers to the majority of cases that we tend to discuss here - the mystery ones. I have looked for the answer but cannot find it.
I can say that in cases where a child is abducted for sexual reasons and killed, the family is by far NOT the usual suspect. But since we don't have any evidence to say what has become of Lyric and Elizabeth, we can't see if that applies here.

 

[JaimeInLA]

If the girls were abducted in an intersection somewhere between home and the park ... I would guess that they were spotted early on, as suggested above, and that they could have been taken closer to the park. It seems so devious to be planting the bikes at a different location right after abducting the girls.

Otto, I just love your graphics and I'm jealous of your skills! But I did want to note that at one point or another, the girls must have left that orange path, because we know the Carpenters saw them ride by on Lake Ave. So if they were abducted as Grandma Cook says (shoved in a van and bikes dumped at the lake), it happened VERY close to the lake, because it had to happen after Lake Ave.