IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #12

[Copper]

I'm not familiar with the timeline. Does anyone know/think it would be possible for the the girls to have been grabbed AFTER they were at the lake?

I agree with the poster above (sorry I can't remember your name), it seems more likely it was planned rather than a chance encounter along the trail through town. I see two options for planning it. One, it was planned by perps who are close to the family and would know Lyric and Elizabeth were out that day. Or Two, the perps were already at the lake since it seems to be as good a place as any to encounter potential victims. The girls are spot at the lake, where they leave their scent. Maybe the perps make contact there, all friendly like. And the perps follow the girls to take them somewhere along the trail? In that scenario, the perps need only to "run into" the girls again and then make a move without something so violent as a bump and run.

 

[nervous_nellie]

WC searched several areas, including the surrounding parks. It was after she had finished that and during her second trip out (after DC called WC & TB and told them to come back and help) that TB said to go to the lake (she had a "gut feeling").

this is what i remember too...but i have been looking for the link of the video of gc recounting her story of the search... there is one of tb on nancy grace too i think...

 

[Marnie]

I'm thinking that the owner(s) of paddleboats along the N.east shore of Meyers lake, have all had to have come forward by now. It is obvious on several maps that there are at LEAST two houses with paddleboats docked on their property.

Someone saw a paddleboat on the lake 7/13/2012. Maybe the person in it was "borrowing" it and has no desire to come forward.

Still have a feeling it was used as a lure for Elizabeth and Lyric. I'm not sure they ever set foot in the paddleboat and if they did, Lyric certainly was strong enough to pedal with another person. These girls were used to riding their bikes and definitely able to propel a paddleboat. Probably 5 minutes from the jetty to the banks of Maiden Lane, if that happened.

 

[RNER]

this is what i remember too...but i have been looking for the link of the video of gc recounting her story of the search... there is one of tb on nancy grace too i think...

Out of everything released about the investigation, this is the main thing that doesn't make sense to me and it is why I believe there is some family connection to the disappearance! Remember earlier in the disappearance, several family members said that the girls would never go to the lake? More information has been released (by family and others) indicating that they HAD been to the lake previously.

I live in an area with river access, bike paths, small lakes, and trails within 1 mile of my house. If my daughters had "never been there", or even had been there on occasion, those areas would certainly not be the locations I would look for them within the first 2 hrs of disappearing...AND...if for some reason I THOUGHT they would go to a lake, bike path or river, I would be more focused on the areas closest to my home.

I am convinced, based on my experiences with briefly "missing" my daughters at that age, that someone in this family knew those girls would be there or wanted it to appear that they had been there!

Solving the WHY and HOW will lead to finding the girls!

 

[cindersoot]

Had to get groceries are else my family will starve, got ready made meals so I don't have to leave the computer. Just kidding. Anyway anything new??

 

[katydid23]

actually iirc the family said that this lake area was the last place that they looked... dont have a link handy will have to dig..

Well, yes and no.

Grandma went out searching first at 12:30--- with the 12 yr old brother. They went through the neighborhood, the town and the local parks and they even went out to Meyers Lake area.

THEN when Aunt T. arrived from Waterloo, Aunt T. started her search by going right to the lake. And she said she had a gut feeling about it, which may also
be because she already knew that Lizzie had ridden there previously with the neighbor girls.

But what I find interesting about Aunt T. having that gut reaction to go straight to the lake---she also asked 'random' people if they saw the girls, and apparently one guy did see them according to Aunt T. She said that LE had his name and she did not know if he was a POI or not, but he saw 2 little girls riding their bikes about 2:15 on the trail.

So how come LE never verified this sighting? And why would the girls be riding around the lake at 2:15 when they knew they had to be home by 1?

And if they were told the girls had just ridden by 15 minutes earlier,then why didnt they spread out and go around the lake themselves?

 

[GCP]

Out of everything released about the investigation, this is the main thing that doesn't make sense to me and it is why I believe there is some family connection to the disappearance! Remember earlier in the disappearance, several family members said that the girls would never go to the lake? More information has been released (by family and others) indicating that they HAD been to the lake previously.

I live in an area with river access, bike paths, small lakes, and trails within 1 mile of my house. If my daughters had "never been there", or even had been there on occasion, those areas would certainly not be the locations I would look for them within the first 2 hrs of disappearing...AND...if for some reason I THOUGHT they would go to a lake, bike path or river, I would be more focused on the areas closest to my home.

I am convinced, based on my experiences with briefly "missing" my daughters at that age, that someone in this family knew those girls would be there or wanted it to appear that they had been there!

Solving the WHY and HOW will lead to finding the girls!

BBM...
When you have looked at every other place except for the lake wouldn't you then go to the lake? Evansdale is a small place from what I see by looking at a map.
Not to sound disrespectful but what about the lie detector tests? The entire family took them.

 

[Considering]

Lol...nervous nellie. I was sitting here thinking, "gc..gc..which one is gc?" Then, ding, ding, ding...grandma cook!

JaimeInLA - I'm not as confident as you are that we "know the Carpenters saw them (Lyric and Elizabeth) ride by on Lake Ave." I know that Mr. Carpenter told a reporter at the Des Moines Register that, "I was out watering my yard between 12 and 3:00 and the girls rode their bikes right by our house," but without LE's acknowledgement or use of this siting in the their timeline, I, personally, am not confident about it. It isn't that I feel that Mr. or Mrs. Carpenter are not being honest. Rather, I am not convinced that the children Mr. Carpenter saw that day were indeed Elizabeth and Lyric. They may have been. I'm just not sure of it. Neither am I saying that the girls did not go down once of the streets that day. If they did go to Meyers Lake, I think the chances of them going to the lake via the streets is as likely as them taking the Evansdale Nature Trail from Lafayette or from getting on the trail from one of the other streets between Elizabeth's house and the lake.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012120717002


GrainneDhu - I must write at least as many posts as you that I never post, either. After I spend time writing them, I think to myself, "Well, who wants to read this?" and I clear the screen and go back to reading. Lol.

 

[katydid23]

BBM...
When you have looked at every other place except for the lake wouldn't you then go to the lake? Evansdale is a small place from what I see by looking at a map.
Not to sound disrespectful but what about the lie detector tests? The entire family took them.

But Grandma had already been at the lake earlier, in her initial search at 12:30. She said she drove all through town and the parks and the Lake Meyers area. But then when Aunt Tammy came, they went straight to the lake and stayed searching there, calling LE to come there. So I do wonder why, because there are other places they could have been, so why did they concentrate on the lake? Aunt T. said it was her gut feeling. I am just curious why that is.

 

[RNER]

Well, yes and no.

Grandma went out searching first at 12:30--- with the 12 yr old brother. They went through the neighborhood, the town and the local parks and they even went out to Meyers Lake area.

THEN when Aunt T. arrived from Waterloo, Aunt T. started her search by going right to the lake. And she said she had a gut feeling about it, which may also
be because she already knew that Lizzie had ridden there previously with the neighbor girls.

But what I find interesting about Aunt T. having that gut reaction to go straight to the lake---she also asked 'random' people if they saw the girls, and apparently one guy did see them according to Aunt T. She said that LE had his name and she did not know if he was a POI or not, but he saw 2 little girls riding their bikes about 2:15 on the trail.

So how come LE never verified this sighting? And why would the girls be riding around the lake at 2:15 when they knew they had to be home by 1?

And if they were told the girls had just ridden by 15 minutes earlier,then why didnt they spread out and go around the lake themselves?

I CAN see Grandma maybe driving around looking for them for an hour or so (even Meyers Lake area), but she certainly wouldn't have much view of the bikepath in her car. Aunt T comes home and goes straight to the lake, gets out of the car, and walks on the bikepath looking for them...THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE! Seems like someone KNEW the girls would be there or want it to APPEAR that they had been there.

IMO...I would have gone door to door in the neighborhood and businesses, streets, alleys, etc closest to my house where they were last seen, and maybe bike trails, lakes, parks closer to my house, not the bikepath where "they never went" or (as later revealed) "occasionally went".

 

[Copper]

It was my impression early that the family members were denying the girls would go to the lake as a response to how LE's search was so focused on the lake early. IIRC, the family was calling it an abduction immediately while local LE and then the FBI had to wait for the lake to be drained before making that determination. As mentioned above, Grandma eventually searched around the lake and Aunt T went there first based on her gut. But later denials were an act of desperation.

 

[MotherOcean]

I live in an area with river access, bike paths, small lakes, and trails within 1 mile of my house. If my daughters had "never been there", or even had been there on occasion, those areas would certainly not be the locations I would look for them within the first 2 hrs of disappearing...AND...if for some reason I THOUGHT they would go to a lake, bike path or river, I would be more focused on the areas closest to my home.

I am convinced, based on my experiences with briefly "missing" my daughters at that age, that someone in this family knew those girls would be there or wanted it to appear that they had been there!

Solving the WHY and HOW will lead to finding the girls!

You may very well be correct about someone knowing something but WC (grandmother) did not go to the lake when she first set out to look for the girls. She looked for them for an hour and then went back to the Collinses home. DC came home. At some point soon after that she left and met her daughter, Aunt T because they had things to do. We have not been told, as far as I have found, what they had to do. She was called back by DC (Elizabeth's dad) to tell her to come and help because the girls still had not been found. It was when she went back and had Aunt T. with her that they headed to the lake because Aunt T. had a "gut feeling" that the girls were at the lake. WC had already checked other areas during her first trip out. Aunt T. may have really had a "gut feeling" or she could be exagerating that detail. I don't know. Later on, during a recent interview, she said that the girls had gone to the lake before but it is not clear if she knew that at the time of their disappearance. She could have found that out after the girls went missing. She said that other girls in the neighborhood had gone to the lake and they had gone with them before but we don't know when Aunt T. found that out, presumably from the girls.

 

[smiley]

I have read here alot, but not posted alot. If Mr & Mrs C said they saw the girls riding the bikes and were familiar with Elizabeth, do we know if LE interviewed all the people who live between Grandma's house and the lake. If the C's were used to seeing the girls, then other neighbors may have been as well. Someone may have offered them a drink before, or they may have seen a pet in someone's yard and talked to them.
This may have already been discussed, but I thought I would put it out there. Thanks

 

[GrainneDhu]

Well, yes and no.

Grandma went out searching first at 12:30--- with the 12 yr old brother. They went through the neighborhood, the town and the local parks and they even went out to Meyers Lake area.

THEN when Aunt T. arrived from Waterloo, Aunt T. started her search by going right to the lake. And she said she had a gut feeling about it, which may also
be because she already knew that Lizzie had ridden there previously with the neighbor girls.

But what I find interesting about Aunt T. having that gut reaction to go straight to the lake---she also asked 'random' people if they saw the girls, and apparently one guy did see them according to Aunt T. She said that LE had his name and she did not know if he was a POI or not, but he saw 2 little girls riding their bikes about 2:15 on the trail.

So how come LE never verified this sighting? And why would the girls be riding around the lake at 2:15 when they knew they had to be home by 1?

And if they were told the girls had just ridden by 15 minutes earlier,then why didnt they spread out and go around the lake themselves?

I'm not sure about your other questions, but the last question seems fairly clear to me.

From the parking area, you can see both ends of the trail clearly. There is no way off the trail without doing some bushwhacking. So when the witness said that he'd seen two girls, they probably looked at the trail from where they were and then waited to see if the girls popped into sight from behind that little island.

At the same time, Heather Collins had gone to the PD to report the girls missing. I'm sure that right around that time, LE either called all the family members searching or had Heather call them to have them go to specific locations. Such as one adult going to the Collins home to wait for the girls to show up in person or call, one adult to stick with whoever was in charge at the beginning and the other adults to stay where they were.

From the point of view of the PD, it didn't seem like such a serious thing in the beginning. Two girls on bikes, they probably figured had gotten carried away with playing, maybe with friends.

The last thing the PD wanted was excited adults driving like maniacs all over town. They usually want to pin the adults down in specific locations and have them wait while the PD does the searching.

I'm inferring that LE searched approximately one third of the town that Friday afternoon because a reference was made in an early news story to searchers spreading out to check the other two thirds of the town on Saturday (sorry, don't have a cite). Before LE could search the entire town, a volunteer firefighter found the bicycles by the lake and LE concentrated their efforts at the lake that evening.

Plus, frankly, which adult present was really so fit that they could do a three quarter mile walk quickly? Heather, who looks like she might collapse if a breeze blew over her? Grandma Cook, who does not look like a spring chicken? They'd already lost two kids, I'm sure they didn't want to let the 12 year old out of sight.

And, um, Aunt TB... my impression is that she wouldn't want to go far from her mother (Grandma Cook) or far from the concentration of excitement. My impression of Aunt TB is that she pretty much does what she wants to do. I have no doubt Aunt TB had a gut reaction but I think her gut was able to process information about other places that had already been searched.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Regarding prior trips to the lake, I don't believe we know whether Lyric had ever ridden her bike there before.

We were told by Aunt T that Elizabeth had been to the lake with three neighbor girls, but I don't know if that was just once or if it was something she did often.

 

[hollyblue]

I still feel they are alive. The FBI is still there and as for what we have been told LE has not cut back the number of investigators on the case. With them saying they think they are alive because of evidence they have and no matter the length of time the girl are gone, I remain positive. The number of investigators has not deceased and they are very quiet.....very busy. The media is no longer chasing the family as well. It's like everybody is waiting to hear what everybody else has to say. kwim ? JMO

 

[otto]

Otto, I just love your graphics and I'm jealous of your skills! But I did want to note that at one point or another, the girls must have left that orange path, because we know the Carpenters saw them ride by on Lake Ave. So if they were abducted as Grandma Cook says (shoved in a van and bikes dumped at the lake), it happened VERY close to the lake, because it had to happen after Lake Ave.

I think so too ... probably 2-3 blocks from the entrance to the park, and it could have happened really fast. I agree ... they could have ridden their bikes on one of the side streets rather than taking the trail.

If one of the parents, like perhaps Aunt Tammie, knew that the girls were riding all over the place without permission, there must be a lot of guilt.

 

[hollyblue]

I CAN see Grandma maybe driving around looking for them for an hour or so (even Meyers Lake area), but she certainly wouldn't have much view of the bikepath in her car. Aunt T comes home and goes straight to the lake, gets out of the car, and walks on the bikepath looking for them...THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE! Seems like someone KNEW the girls would be there or want it to APPEAR that they had been there.

IMO...I would have gone door to door in the neighborhood and businesses, streets, alleys, etc closest to my house where they were last seen, and maybe bike trails, lakes, parks closer to my house, not the bikepath where "they never went" or (as later revealed) "occasionally went".

Aunt Tammy didn't come out and say the girls had been there before.....until everyone started questioning and talking about "Why there?" and why she was so adamant about it. What I don't understand is them not splitting up and hunting for them. One to the far SE side one taking the northern side and Grams staying around her car. The other is the timeline of LE finding the bikes. Why did it take so long for them to find the bikes? :banghead: What am missing there?

 

[GCP]

It might help if people would go back and read the first thread all the way through again. Leave your opinions from now out of it and read with a fresh mind. You might be surprised at how much was said then has been twisted around to suit someone's personal theories. A lot of what we're reading now is not how it was first reported. JMHOO

 

[huckleberryhound]

If it is true that Grandma went out searching for the girls at 12:30, only about 15 minutes after they are known to be riding on the street in front of their house, to me that says that it was not normal for them to be out of view and earshot for very long, and Grandma became concerned enough to go looking for them very quickly.