IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #14

[Wishbone]

Their address is probably in the white pages, Otto. Maybe they are renting.

thanks, I found him in the white pages

 

[otto]

I'd like to know how the Carpenters afford to water their lawn for three hours. I don't water mine and our last water bill was $126!

Unless I'm missing something when looking at the planning maps, it seems like the couple may not own a property on Lake Avenue ... which also makes me wonder why a renter would spend that much on a lawn.

Am I completely missing it, or is it not there:

http://www2.co.black-hawk.ia.us/website/bhmap/viewer.htm

 

[CoeTrawk]

Does my memory serve me right in that the purse was found 20 feet/yards/somethings EAST of the bikes? If so, and if the bikes were by the woods gate rather than the shore gate - east is towards the open field and "my" blind curve.

 

[Wishbone]

Unless I'm missing something when looking at the planning maps, it seems like the couple may not own a property on Lake Avenue ... which also makes me wonder why a renter would spend that much on a lawn.

Am I completely missing it, or is it not there:

http://www2.co.black-hawk.ia.us/website/bhmap/viewer.htm

It shows up as in a trust in a woman's name completely different than carpenter.

 

[otto]

Is the maintenence gate the single gate that separates bike path from woods or the double gate that separates bike path from lake and "jetty" or whatever? Both gates are in the north fence, and thus within "fenced on both sides" region. The westernmost curve, that I don't consider "blind" as such, though TG might, is near the single gate. The curve I thought IS blind is east of the end of the northern fence, but isn't THAT far from the double fenced area, nor is it far from the single gate either. Certainly near enough to have someone move the bikes from curve to gate. The double gate is not that close to any curve.

I seriously wish we could get clarification on where TG saw the bikes, as well as which gate the bikes were found by.

I didn't realize that there were two gates. I understood that there was only one gate for accessing the drainage pipe. So the single gate west of the double gate? If so, where does it go?

 

[Considering]

Unless I'm missing something when looking at the planning maps, it seems like the couple may not own a property on Lake Avenue ... which also makes me wonder why a renter would spend that much on a lawn.

Am I completely missing it, or is it not there:

http://www2.co.black-hawk.ia.us/website/bhmap/viewer.htm

No. I don't see that they are property owners. They must be renting the house.

 

[nikb]

Unless I'm missing something when looking at the planning maps, it seems like the couple may not own a property on Lake Avenue ... which also makes me wonder why a renter would spend that much on a lawn.

Am I completely missing it, or is it not there:

http://www2.co.black-hawk.ia.us/website/bhmap/viewer.htm

Maybe the homeowner pays the water bill, if the C's are renting.

 

[otto]

Does my memory serve me right in that the purse was found 20 feet/yards/somethings EAST of the bikes? If so, and if the bikes were by the woods gate rather than the shore gate - east is towards the open field and "my" blind curve.

The purse was found 10 feet east of the bikes, two feet away from the fence on the lakeside of the fence.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Unless I'm missing something when looking at the planning maps, it seems like the couple may not own a property on Lake Avenue ... which also makes me wonder why a renter would spend that much on a lawn.

Am I completely missing it, or is it not there:

http://www2.co.black-hawk.ia.us/website/bhmap/viewer.htm

They may have transferred ownership of their house to a trust and be considered tenants for life.

After I was wiped out in business (long story), I had just enough money left to buy a house. For complicated tax reasons, I put my house into a trust and live here as a tenant for life. My name does not show up as owner of the house on tax records, my legatee's name shows up as owner.

 

[otto]

It shows up as in a trust in a woman's name completely different than carpenter.

If the water is metered, then that's a lot of extra expense to look after someone else's property.

 

[rjjensen]

Hi sleuths,
I've been lurking here and in the scanner thread for about two weeks now. I go thru phases of obsession with this thread and checking once a day, so forgive me if my observations aren't exactly "original."

I went down to the "scene" today, just because I wated to see it all for myself. A few observations:

1. No way are those fences 8 feet high. I'd say they are about 6'3" or so. My thought was that they were easily scale-able by Lyric for sure, if not by both. At the gate by the jetty, even if it was locked (as it is now), it is a double gate, and there is a gap between the two gates that even I, an adult man, can fit through. If she couldn't climb the fence itself, Elizabeth could have stood on the locking bar between the two gates (about 2'6" off the ground) and slipped through the gap. That's just for info's sake - I don't think they actually scaled the fence, but of course, we don't know for sure!

2. If you look at the area on a google maps picture or similar, you know that the bikes etc were found on the SE side of the lake, near a small patch of woods where Maiden Lane cuts in. I spotted the (other, single) gate from Ollipop's pictures, but to me it was not clear that there was any road behind it. Maiden Lane is fairly obvious from Arbutus (if you are looking for it). That said, if you see how the bike path shoots away to the east beyond those woods, do you see the empty field between the path and Arbutus? There are several little narrow paths that lead into the woods. Not "official" paths, but the kind of "slightly-less-jungle-like" little tracks that go right into the woods - the kind I used to explore as a child at the first opportunity! The kind likely created by repeated use rather than made on purpose. They look more used than if they were created by police walking in and out over the past few weeks.

3. Relating to the TG bike sighting on the "blind" curve: if you look on google maps, you'll see two curves in the area near those woods. The westernmost one isn't a blind curve, IMO. On the ground, no matter which way you're going, you can see thru the fenceline and see the trail ahead of you after the curve. But the easternmost curve IS a blind curve. And it is right there by the open field and the side of the woods where the little trails go in.

4. The little trails are too narrow to bike on. If TG saw their bikes at the truly blind curve, the girls were probably in the woods, whether exploring or meeting someone. If they were abducted then, all it would take was one perp ahead of them, then another walks in behind - nowhere to run now! The bikes may have been moved at any time after the fact

Having seen this stuff myself, I favor the non-boat theories of abduction. I think the girls dropped their bikes at the only truly blind curve, walked into that empty field, took a little trail into the woods (why? That's the key question...) and whatever happened, happened in there. The boat thing seems unnecesarry.

good points..what about the timeline? IF the times are correct they could not get there in 5 minutes..either the video time of 12:11 is correct or TG is mistaken or lying

 

[Wishbone]

They may have transferred ownership of their house to a trust and be considered tenants for life.

After I was wiped out in business (long story), I had just enough money left to buy a house. For complicated tax reasons, I put my house into a trust and live here as a tenant for life. My name does not show up as owner of the house on tax records, my legatee's name shows up as owner.

The picture shown for this property is really barren looking. The grass is dead and theres no shrubs.

 

[Wishbone]

If the water is metered, then that's a lot of extra expense to look after someone else's property.

Take a look at the photo of the property. It doesn't look like a yard that ever gets watered.

 

[azuredewdrop]

Careful...I don't think that the C's have been named POI.

 

[ShyViolet]

I think watering in the heat of the day is old school. When I was growing up, that is what every one did. I suppose the logic was that the grass would be thirstiest during the hottest part of the day. There just was not the awareness about horticulture or water conservation or other environmental kinds of issues back then. I would guess that Mr. C. is just doing what he has done all along.

 

[CoeTrawk]

Otto - the double gate is the western gate. It is at the jetty or whatever you wanna call it, and does lead to the drain pipe. I wasn't sure how to describe what it led to, but drain pipe makes sense. The single gate is a decent ways east of there. It doesn't seem to lead to anything, other than those evil woods, though I could be wrong. That's where the possible blind curves are. The western, double gate is along a straightaway.

To avert confusion when I say eastern and western curves and gates, from west to east you have: double gate, (a fair, straight distance), single gate, sighted curve, blind curve. All but the blind curve are in the double fenced section, the blind curve is just east of it.

 

[otto]

Otto - the double gate is the western gate. It is at the jetty or whatever you wanna call it, and does lead to the drain pipe. I wasn't sure how to describe what it led to, but drain pipe makes sense. The single gate is a decent ways east of there. It doesn't seem to lead to anything, other than those evil woods, though I could be wrong. That's where the possible blind curves are. The western, double gate is along a straightaway.

To avert confusion when I say eastern and western curves and gates, from west to east you have: double gate, (a fair, straight distance), single gate, sighted curve, blind curve. All but the blind curve are in the double fenced section, the blind curve is just east of it.

I've been under the impression, the entire time, that the bikes were found at the double gate near the drainage pipe, as that is where we've seen police vehicles and police searching. The problem, as you've pointed out, is that there is no blind curve at that location. For this reason, I have wondered whether the cyclist's sighting of bikes at a blind curve was connected with the girl's bikes.

 

[hollyblue]

I just want to add, I truly feel TG saw the bikes in the path. I also am feeling the girls were probably not in danger at this point. Oh how I feel terrible for TG. If I would have been TG and I saw those bikes and learned latter of E & L I would be just miserable. Poor fella!!! I will add him to my prayers. Can you imagine his questions?? What if?? What if?? What if????

My first question regarding TG was why didn't he think anything was hinky? There is no place to go between two fences in that 10' wide isolated area besides the behind the gate. I would have first been pizzed about the bike on the trial and stopped to move it against the fence for courtesy to others. All the while, looking for the persons responsible for it. Adults wouldn't normally do that and at least one was a child's bike. I don't know how big the mountain bike was/is. ? Like I said before, it's not like they laid the bikes down next to a trail that had open woods or a field to explore. I'd be asking where are these kids? IDK, but I think most people would wonder the same in an area so enclosed. ???? I've also wondered if TG returned home the same way around the lake and if the bikes were still there or if he went on to the northern part and returned down by Arbutus and 6th? jmo

 

[MotherOcean]

I sure wish LE had a suspect (that they would tell us of). Preferably one with a public FB page.

:shush:

 

[otto]

The picture shown for this property is really barren looking. The grass is dead and theres no shrubs.

Thank you. I don't know which property it is, and I don't want to name the couple, but I was looking to verify the claim that the lawn was watered for 3 hours that afternoon. One would expect that watering the lawn for 3 hours doesn't randomly happen, but is part of routine chores and habits. Additionally, one would expect that a lawn that is routinely watered for 3 hours at a time would be a healthy, tended yard. If the appearance of the yard is not supported by the claim of watering 3 hours in the afternoon ... I'm looking for another reason to believe that the couple actually saw the two missing girls between noon and three, as well as regularly in the evenings. At this point, I have doubts that their sighting relates to the two missing girls.