IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #17

[nikb]

Not necessarily.

I used to work for a social services type agency and on occasion had contact with clients who voiced suicidal ideation or had actually attempted suicide right before they called me. I drove many of them to the ER and, at least in the 1980s, it wasn't that easy to get admitted to a psych unit. Even for people who had actually attempted suicide before showing up at the ER.<snipped for space>

I agree, GrainneDhu. I'm sorry, that had to be so hard! It should IMO be the case they're held but it isn't around here, either - lack of resources, and I suspect it's the same in a lot of places. One other thought, in my experience by the time the pysch docs/nurses arrive, the person's in a somewhat better frame of mind. If someone's only gone through "the system" once I don't think they realize what they just got themselves into in terms of hospital, psych clinics, etc. Which is probably what they need but they hate/hated it. Those who've done it more than once know how to talk themselves out of being committed/hospitalized. All IMO and sadly based on several people I know. Just to be clear no fault of the doctors, staff, etc. - they've got a practically impossible job IMO.

My comment's also based on my experiences of waiting in emergency rooms... sheesh. I had to go in a few months ago and waited for 12-13 hours before I saw a nurse or doc, because a lot of people were (justifiably) taken in ahead of me. While I waited, there was this woman who made my heart ache. Hospital/ER was out of beds, out of chairs, and wouldn't let me stand for awhile to give her the bed I'd been on for 6 or 7 hours. She was sobbing for HOURS and every so often would stop to say over and over "please someone help me." It was hard to understand what else she said but the gist was she wanted to kill herself but didn't want to die. She finally got a bed and I think she was so exhausted she couldn't help but sleep for a bit. By the time the psych consult doc got there she was a little more "together" and convinced them she was ok enough to go home with discharge orders to see a psychologist. I (obviously) still think about her and wonder what happened.

Anyway I'm sorry that was kinda OT but it reminds me how easily someone who may still be in danger can be discharged. Relating back to the girls and their families, I feel so sad for them. It made me even more sad to hear about what happened with Misty today. I feel like she needs to at least know her daughter is safe and alive. I'm not much of a religious person so it wouldn't be right to say my "prayers" are with them but the sentiment is the same, my thoughts are sure with all of them.

ETA: I was there for dehydration and saw everything from car accident victims to gunshot wounds to "construction nail through the head" (eek!) to this distraught woman... felt sort of stupid for being there for dehydration after all that - would've probably left if not referred there by a doc.

 

[otto]

Otto, that was the kindest thought and the thanks button just wasn't enough.

If you're close by, if there's anything I can do, say it ... it seems like she is very weak from the trauma of what happened to her daughter. She needs to pull through this and if there's any small gesture that we can do, it seems like now is the time.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Otto, I do love your posts. My previous post was a rant and not directed at you in anyway. I've seen people who are addicted to all sorts of things. xoxo

 

[GrainneDhu]

Another optical illusion ... fingerless gloves on his hands, cell phone clipped onto his shorts. Gloves probably help with sweaty hands. It looks like he also has neoprene handle covers, which helps with sweaty hands and removes the need for gloves ... kind of overkiill to use both, in my opinion. To me, he looks all decked out like a cyclist, but he doesn't look like an avid cyclist. It reminds me of ski hill bunnies, all decked out like hot shots, that faceplant when snow ploughing. Even the biggest pot belly at the Cycling Tour on Sunday 2012 doesn't look like that.

Still, he was astute enough to notice two bikes on the path and report the sighting to police. Perhaps his tip is the confirmed sighting of the bikes with an accurate time ... and perhaps it's a second person that regularly runs the trails that police refer to when they mention an accurate sighting of the bikes on the Evansdale Nature Trail.

The combo of biking gloves, which usually have padded palms and neoprene handlebar covers suggest to me that he has problems with tingling hands after riding for some distance.

Just from the pics, it looks to me like he's done what lots and lots of touring bicyclists do: adjusted his handlebars a tad too low in relationship with the height of the seat.

Bicyclists often think the tingling hands are caused by the pressure of the handlebars.

The true cause is often a tunnel effect in the caused by having the arms extended while looking up to see ahead. The angle of the head compresses the posterior side of the cervical spine, which impinges on the somethingsomething nerve (I think the ulnar but I can't remember for sure).

Another possible cause for the tingling is angling the seat so the front points downwards. Some people get nerve tingles in a most sensitive part of the body and they alleviate the tingles by tilting the seat rather than getting a hornless bicycle saddle. Tilting the seat can relieve the nerve pressure in one place but start it up in the hands.

Bicycles were my first introduction to the whole concept of ergonomics and I still find them fascinating, how changing one little thing in one place can cause or relieve big problems in quite a different place.

Physiology is fun. I miss the days when I got to teach my nephews all the names of all the parts using the life sized take apart body that my dad got when I was tiny. And now that I don't have that practice, my knowledge of anatomy is fading alarmingly fast.

Too bad people should have better reasons to have children other than their aunt wants more little kids to play with.

 

[otto]

When I was in the burn unit for almost 4 months, I definitely needed medical care more than I needed flowers.

But the flowers helped keep me going through some rather horrible medical treatments.

Two words: tub room.

I don't think it's the flowers that make the difference, but rather the gesture. The flowers are the neutral gesture that tells someone that someone else cares. I don't know anything about suicide so I'm thinking that, in this case, maybe there's a desperation of guilt about what happened, and fear that it will only get worse. I get the feeling that she needs to be propped up, allowed to shed the guilt and supported so she is not afraid of finding the answers ... even though they are painful.

 

[otto]

Otto, I agree. Flowers would be nice and cheer someone up. She needs sobered up in my opinoin. Two weeks later she'll still needs help & support, 5 months later too. Who's around for flowers? She has to want to quit her od'ing or partying or whatever. The hell the family that has to go through that suffers...many prayers to all of them. I'd spend my money on the search, family or the reward. jmo

Not seeing a Baker Act in Iowa, does Iowa have a hold on unstable people like this. I worry she is going to hurt herself before the girls are found. Boy, my heart goes out to the family. jmo

Perhaps she can be held in an institution that will make her so sober that the horror of the situation will leave her with no alternative but to want to escape her reality ... using drugs.

 

[CHERIE.T]

A pannier was typically used for books and an under-seat pouch was typically used for bike repair, but today ... who knows. Perhaps a pannier is used for puppies and under-the-seat pouches have been replaced with waist pouch cell phone cases.

Maybe the officer is looking through something that he pulled out of the pannier.

Because the cyclist came forward in the media and with police, we have learned that the timeline in which the children vanished is very small - approximately 8 minutes between 12:19 and 12:27 (video sighting of children to phone call several minutes after allegedly seeing bikes). If we exclude the cyclists tip, we are left with the possibility that a jogger saw the bikes at 2 or 2:30 during his regular run. However, given the time that the children were expected to be home (1:30), we can narrow the time of the disappearance of the girls to between 12:15 and 1:30. We can narrow the time that the bikes appeared at the lake to between 12:30 and 2:30 ... I think.

As of right now that makes sense to me.
You said the disappearance time could be narrowed down to between
12:15 and 1:30.........
What happened during that time?
As far as we know, there were no screams......
Who was there that didn't frighten the girls?
Moo
Just throwing questions out.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I agree, GrainneDhu. I'm sorry, that had to be so hard! It should IMO be the case they're held but it isn't around here, either - lack of resources, and I suspect it's the same in a lot of places. One other thought, in my experience by the time the pysch docs/nurses arrive, the person's in a somewhat better frame of mind. If someone's only gone through "the system" once I don't think they realize what they just got themselves into in terms of hospital, psych clinics, etc. Which is probably what they need but they hate/hated it. Those who've done it more than once know how to talk themselves out of being committed/hospitalized. All IMO and sadly based on several people I know. Just to be clear no fault of the doctors, staff, etc. - they've got a practically impossible job IMO.

Respectfully SBM

When someone has nerved themselves up to make a suicide attempt and then they get help, they often go through a period of euphoria.

PlainJaneDoe mentioned to me a theory called opponent-process theory that explains beautifully why people don't usually go back to a neutral emotional state straight after a strong emotional state. If I understand this correctly, when someone feels something strongly the brain then releases the neurochemicals that give the opposite emotion.

So if someone has been feeling intense emotional pain, they don't just go back to neutral instantly. When the emotional pain is relieved, they feel the opposite emotion for a period of time (euphoria).

The same thing is true if someone has been laughing hard. They don't go back to emotional neutral instantly, they usually feel a period of let down (depression) for a while before they eventually go to emotional neutral.

And yeah, of course people hate being on a psych ward. Who wants to be stuck in a hospital for any reason? Just the whole thing where the day starts so early was hard for this natural owl. Even little stuff, like being on someone else's schedule for baths or to do PT, started to grate on my nerves. There were times when I wanted to growl "just let me finish this chapter!" the way I would at home but of course, that's not acceptable behaviour as an in-patient.

And when I'm sick is when I'm at my least tolerant and resilient. Staying in the hospital would have been much easier mentally had I been physically well and not in need of it.

I kinda think a lot of psych patients feel that way too.

 

[GrainneDhu]

As of right now that makes sense to me.
You said the disappearance time could be narrowed down to between
12:15 and 1:30.........
What happened during that time?
As far as we know, there were no screams......
Who was there that didn't frighten the girls?
Moo
Just throwing questions out.

Or what happened that was so terrifying both girls were frozen?

 

[HeavenLeigh]

I'll probably get in hot water for this......

I've considered the possibility of a couple being out on the trail - one spouse possibly in a motorized wheelchair that is no longer working properly - and they ask for assistance pushing the wheelchair to where the other spouse has driven their van up on the trail. I think the two girls would be willing to help, and then were grabbed when close to the van. MOO.

Respectfully I can't picture this option. Those things are heavy! You can't roll one if it breaks down so pushing wouldn't help. You have to either pick the whole thing up (really need 2 strong men) or take it apart it sections to transport it. The latter of which takes several minutes to do. I have a couple of friends who use them (one is a newer model & the other one is 5-6 years older). If anything the newer model is heavier because of more features.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Or what happened that was so terrifying both girls were frozen?

Yes, definitely that too.

 

[nikb]

If you're close by, if there's anything I can do, say it ... it seems like she is very weak from the trauma of what happened to her daughter. She needs to pull through this and if there's any small gesture that we can do, it seems like now is the time.

I agree Otto. I think she, Heather, and Wylma could probably all use even a small boost right now. (not to leave out the Dads, I just don't know what would be a good small gesture for them). Better yet let the girls be found safe as of now or say yesterday, but I'm trying to be realistic.

ETA: oops not to leave out Aunt T. or the many other worried family members either. Gets complicated fast doesn't it?

 

[nikb]

The photographer has moved, thats all.

Oh I see it now. Thanks.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Perhaps she can be held in an institution that will make her so sober that the horror of the situation will leave her with no alternative but to want to escape her reality ... using drugs.

Probably. She has to want it first. jmo

Only the person can want to be better. Family & society can direct her to the correct route, it happens sometimes. jmo

 

[otto]

As of right now that makes sense to me.
You said the disappearance time could be narrowed down to between
12:15 and 1:30.........
What happened during that time?
As far as we know, there were no screams......
Who was there that didn't frighten the girls?
Moo
Just throwing questions out.

It's possible that they were abducted right outside their house in the parking lot behind the Auction Shop ... then theiir bikes were staged on the trail by someone that accessed Maiden Lane. It's also possible that they were lured to ride their bikes to the double gate at the SE tip of Meyers Lake, they leaned their bikes against the fence and went to the shore, where they were led to Maiden Lane. I think those are the only two possibilities. Abducted on the way or lured and then abducted. One possibility includes someone familiar with the trail and an opportunity, the other includes someone familiar with the trail and the girls. I find the "opportunity" scenario unlikely because the thinking that went into getting the bikes to that point on the trail (luring or staging) seems too sophisticated for a crime of opportunity. That only leaves lured and then abducted ... in my opinion.

I rule out the chance that a perp with a van happened to be parked on Maiden Lane (fishing, playing with puppies, etc.). I rule out that somone that could make two girls vanish happened to be standing on the trail as these children rode bikes through the creepy area ... when the only other witnesses we've heard about happen to be an adult cyclist and a runner. It doesn't sound like an area frequented by children that are not allowed to cycle to the park. Still, there may have been something that lured one or both girls to that location ... and they only had an hour.

That leaves lured and then abducted. The person that lured them had to have more than one contact with them ... I'm guessing. What areas did Lyric often visit before the abduction? Did the girls regularly ride bikes in circles in front of the Collin's house this summer ... in the parking lot behind the Auction Shop? What day did Lyric ask if she could ride to Meyers Lake and where had she been on that day?

 

[otto]

I agree Otto. I think she, Heather, and Wylma could probably all use even a small boost right now. (not to leave out the Dads, I just don't know what would be a good small gesture for them). Better yet let the girls be found safe as of now or say yesterday, but I'm trying to be realistic.

There seem to be three sisters in the mom's family. I can imagine that they looked at the three cousins, aged 11, 10 and almost 9, through the eyes of their own childhood. Now two are gone.

 

[otto]

Probably. She has to want it first. jmo

I doubt that she will ever want to face the horror of her reality without self medicating, but without an awful lot of support, maybe she can manage it.

 

[CHERIE.T]

It's possible that they were abducted right outside their house in the parking lot behind the Auction Shop ... then theiir bikes were staged on the trail by someone that accessed Maiden Lane. It's also possible that they were lured to ride their bikes to the double gate at the SE tip of Meyers Lake, they leaned their bikes against the fence and went to the shore, where they were led to Maiden Lane. I think those are the only two possibilities. Abducted on the way or lured and then abducted. One possibility includes someone familiar with the trail and an opportunity, the other includes someone familiar with the trail and the girls. I find the "opportunity" scenario unlikely because the thinking that went into getting the bikes to that point on the trail (luring or staging) seems too sophisticated for a crime of opportunity. That only leaves lured and then abducted ... in my opinion.

I rule out the chance that a perp with a van happened to be parked on Maiden Lane (fishing, playing with puppies, etc.). I rule out that somone that could make two girls vanish happened to be standing on the trail as these children rode bikes through the creepy area ... when the only other witnesses we've heard about happen to be an adult cyclist and a runner. It doesn't sound like an area frequented by children that are not allowed to cycle to the park. Still, there may have been something that lured one or both girls to that location ... and they only had an hour.

That leaves lured and then abducted. The person that lured them had to have more than one contact with them ... I'm guessing. What areas did Lyric often visit before the abduction? Did the girls regularly ride bikes in circles in front of the Collin's house this summer ... in the parking lot behind the Auction Shop? What day did Lyric ask if she could ride to Meyers Lake and where had she been on that day?

Thanks for making me think in another direction.
Otto, if the girls were abducted near their house, do you think that could have happened without anyone seeing them?
Was the Auction Shop opened?
Were any neighbors in their yards?
are possible witnesses afraid to come forward?
You can probably tell
I get a little too focused on 1 theory. Your post made me realize a simple , probable fact.... more than 1 perp was likely involved.
With 2 girls on bikes being the victims , there must have been someone controlling the girls and another someone loading bikes and driving a vehicle. But how do people do this type thing?
Do they leave work and commit crimes?
Thanks for making me think.
IMO

Where are the girls?

 

[CHERIE.T]

Probably. She has to want it first. jmo

Only the person can want to be better. Family & society can direct her to the correct route, it happens sometimes. jmo

I m wih you there. She has to want too ..and she may benefit also from encouragement from loved ones and friends. I wonder if she drank before her
jail time? If so while serving her time she likely experienced withdrawals. it's sad.
To go through that, only to come home and have her daughter kidnapped.....
I hope shes ok.
I really worry about Grandmom Wilma too.

:moo:

 

[Dr. Know?]

I'm at the point that it's just about Elizabeth & Lyric missing. The heck with anyone else's problems. They are adults. Time to play tough love. It's way too long & overdue for them to come home & I'm very worried now.

jmo