IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[Zuckerschnecke]

This is just hitting me hard tonight about these girls for some reason. I guess it was the "Found Deceased" next to their names. It was like a kick to the guts.....brought instant tears to my eyes. For 5 long months, we have talked, kicked theories around, sleuthed the crap outta people.....to see it end like this, right before Christmas, it just all seems surreal. Those poor baby girls, what did they go through? I pray that what ever did happen to them, that it happened fast and that they weren't suffering or in scared for long. I had a dream last night about my own 11 year old DD. She went missing....it was an incredibly scary dream, and I just couldn't imagine living that nightmare everyday for weeks, months, years and sadly, some never get found. Just so scary.....I pray that these beautiful girls get justice with such a fury and vengeance, they won't even know what happened. I pray that God leads LE in the right direction and gives them the strength they need to keep pushing forward, until the person/s responsible are :jail: for LWOP!!!

:moo::moo:

I could not have said it better. Right before Christmas is a terrible time. Everyone give their loved ones an extra hug today and pray they find quickly who did this.

I am also not convinced on the RSO aspect. I just get a sense and don't ask me why, this has some personal component to it.

Also, at the very beginning of when they were found, it was reported, and correct me if I'm wrong, that they were found propped up along a rail or fence or something. I will try and find the article, it was likely from msnbc or abcnews. I remember my first reaction was, they were posed.

 

[Snowbunny]

The mods are always very good at stepping in and telling us if we've gone too far. I believe everything posted here is backed up by public records, i.e., where he lives and works, what his charges were, etc.

If you have concerns about a particular post going over the line, please alert on it and let a moderator know. That's the best way, IMO, for making sure we toe the line.

For the record, I'm not convinced an RSO was involved in the abduction and murder of these two girls. But I think what chelsea6 has uncovered is interesting, to the point where I and others have encouraged her to call it in to LE (which she did).

I do get your point - we need to make sure we don't go overboard and begin hurling about unfounded accusations. Since the moderators haven't intervened yet, I'm assuming that we're on safe ground as long as we post info that is a matter of public record.

Chelsea6 has done an excellent job of uncovering things and I do believe I stated that, but when one makes a comment such as if he had succeeded in kidnapping his said victim and that victim might have ended up in the same place as the girls did that's assuming his guilty. I did not mean to offend anyone as I had stated. The next time my niece mentions something of a legality I'll take it to one of the moderators. I was just trying to be courteous.

 

[Marilynilpa]

I could not have said it better. Right before Christmas is a terrible time. Everyone give their loved ones an extra hug today and pray they find quickly who did this.

I am also not convinced on the RSO aspect. I just get a sense and don't ask me why, this has some personal component to it.

Also, at the very beginning of when they were found, it was reported, and correct me if I'm wrong, that they were found propped up along a rail or fence or something. I will try and find the article, it was likely from msnbc or abcnews. I remember my first reaction was, they were posed.

This has not been reported in MSM, to my knowledge, nor has it been stated by LE. I haven't seen anything in the photos taken at Seven Bridges, where the bodies were found, that looks like any kind of rail or fence. If you do find a link, please post it because that's totally new info to me. Thanks!

 

[Marilynilpa]

Chelsea6 has done an excellent job of uncovering things and I do believe I stated that, but when one makes a comment such as if he had succeeded in kidnapping his said victim and that victim might have ended up in the same place as the girls did that's assuming his guilty. I did not mean to offend anyone as I had stated. The next time my niece mentions something of a legality I'll take it to one of the moderators. I was just trying to be courteous.

I understand where you are coming from, and like you suggested, it would probably be best to let a moderator address these types of concerns.

Also, if you see a specific post you think is taking things too far you can alert the moderator to it by clicking on the triangle outlined in red at the upper right hand corner of the post. I do that occasionally myself, and the moderators are very good at dealing with those types of posts.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Usually the big problem in training scenting dogs is finding appropriate samples to train with. Just about any yes/no scent question you can come up with can be answered by a trained dog but in order to do the training, you need samples.

Training dogs on bones that are decades or centuries old can turn into a political football because it can seem disrespectful.

Here's a "no kidding" story. I know a K9 handler who is a woodworker in his spare time. One day he was careless and cut the end of one finger off on his table saw. His wife found it and took it to the hospital with him but it couldn't be reconnected.

She hit him and cracked up laughing when he asked the doctor for his fingertip to be used in training his dog.

The doctor was startled but did give it back to him and he did use it for training.

Now that is one dedicated trainer!

 

[writer7]

BBM thanks GrainneDhu, I was thinking the same thing! I can't imagine cutting down fresh growing trees for firewood. I'm not much of a camping person, but the few times I've gone I remember it was always a huge search for dead wood/trees that were dry.

I do think there might've been some other evidence on these trees. I hope so.

Guys, the only time I've ever had to make a campfire, it was pitch dark (no moon at all) and everything on the ground was really wet, so I used growing tree's branches, yeah. I was a missing person and the police were investigating my possible murder that night, lol! True story (and a long one)!

So that explains why I don't know green from not for campfires Sometimes you take what you can get

 

[nikb]

Guys, the only time I've ever had to make a campfire, it was pitch dark (no moon at all) and everything on the ground was really wet, so I used growing tree's branches, yeah. I was a missing person and the police were investigating my possible murder that night, lol! True story (and a long one)!

So that explains why I don't know green from not for campfires Sometimes you take what you can get

I'm glad you were found!

The worst time I remember attempting the green branches for a campfire was also the time I recall finally giving up, then waking up inside my suitcase/bag, sleeping bag huddled around me, because I was so cold.

Ugh. My heart just broke again for the girls.

 

[otto]

Not to mention, that LE indicated it would have been very easy for the hunters to have missed them altogether, which would be unlikely if they had been...attached to trees.

They were definitely not attached to trees when they were found. However, if investigators collected parts of trees, then they did so because they believe that there could be some evidence on those trees ... maybe even a fingerprint, maybe some DNA ... who knows? They are exploring all possibilities, from the sounds of it ... the possibility that the children were assauted at that location directly after being abducted would be one reason to collect trees.

 

[chelsea6]

I hate to say this and with all due respect, it sounds like you've already tried and convicted this guy for the cousins' abduction and murders and he's not been named a POI yet that we know of. I didn't think we were allowed to make remarks or accusations like this on WS since LE has not named a POI or suspect yet. Don't get me wrong, you've done a great job finding things about this guy, but from a legal stand point I would think we'd have to be careful not to actually accuse him.

No, I'm nobodys judge and jury, believe me.
I'm just new to websleuthing. These are coincidences I am listing
as well as some questions, wondering what everyone thinks. I agree about being careful, you make a good point and it is well taken.

 

[georger]

They were definitely not attached to trees when they were found. However, if investigators collected parts of trees, then they did so because they believe that there could be some evidence on those trees ... maybe even a fingerprint, maybe some DNA ... who knows? They are exploring all possibilities, from the sounds of it ... the possibility that the children were assauted at that location directly after being abducted would be one reason to collect trees.

Contact dna would be one reason. Rough surface collects skin cells.

 

[otto]

There's a decomposition formula that was linked here in the last thread. y = 1285/x, where x = the average temperature in centigrade and y = the number of days that it takes to become mummified or skeletonized. So ... 1285 divided by the ave.temp over 4-5 months at that location is approximately 1285/15. That means that after 85 days, there would be little more than mummification or skeletonization. It has been 4.5 months, so more than 100 days. That they were identified by clothing probably means that they were wearing their clothes and their hair appeared to be the right colour and length ... but I doubt that much else was left.

The bigger picture

 

[chicagofa13]

They may collect bullets or bullet fragments in trees. Whether relevant to the case or not, investigators try to get everything. I don't want a rumor started, this is just SOP if something is found at a crime scene.

 

[otto]

No, I'm nobodys judge and jury, believe me.
I'm just new to websleuthing. These are coincidences I am listing
as well as some questions, wondering what everyone thinks. I agree about being careful, you make a good point and it is well taken.

Given that this guy's first offense was at the age of 17 and it sounds like it was a molestation ... plus he has additional offenses ... plus he has lived in Waterloo, Readlyn and Evansdale in the last few years ... that makes him a good candidate to look at. He may have a perfectly good alibi for July 13 and if so, it can be cleared up right away. If he doesn't, he looks as shady as Austin Sigg ... this person is a creepy guy that is inappropriate with younger girls (regardless of whether it was a date), transient, multiple arrests, possibly lived on Gilbert Drive (although his record shows that he lived on Gilber Avenue - and avenues are parallel to Gilbert Drive), and just looks bad given the discovery of the children.

 

[LaborDayRN]

:goodpost: thank you, that was kind of you to post this

Thank you B4igo2it. And that was kind of YOU to post! :gthanks:

 

[otto]

They may collect bullets or bullet fragments in trees. Whether relevant to the case or not, investigators try to get everything. I don't want a rumor started, this is just SOP if something is found at a crime scene.

I am thinking that they cut down some of the grass around the bodies. Bullets in trees? There was a photo posted earlier that seems to show the nearby trees intact in maps when the bodies were found and after the bodies were removed.

I don't know to whom I should attribute this photo (apologies ... it's just open on the computer now), but it's perfect! I'm just wondering if the vantage point for the photo is a bit to the right ... because of the different positions of the twisted tree in the two photos.

 

[otto]

Guys, the only time I've ever had to make a campfire, it was pitch dark (no moon at all) and everything on the ground was really wet, so I used growing tree's branches, yeah. I was a missing person and the police were investigating my possible murder that night, lol! True story (and a long one)!

So that explains why I don't know green from not for campfires Sometimes you take what you can get

Green branches can be burned on a hot fire, but it's not possible to start a fire with branches that are ripped off a tree - green.

 

[otto]

I understand where you are coming from, and like you suggested, it would probably be best to let a moderator address these types of concerns.

Also, if you see a specific post you think is taking things too far you can alert the moderator to it by clicking on the triangle outlined in red at the upper right hand corner of the post. I do that occasionally myself, and the moderators are very good at dealing with those types of posts.

The tip line was given the information, as far as I understand ... and police probably figured it out long before we did ... it's a good connection between Evansdale, with two addresses, Waterloo, with two addresses and Readlyn - childhood, which is near 7 Bridges County Park. . If the guy has an alibi, he's cleared, but if he was here and there but no one really knows where he was and his cell phone was turned off after noon on July 13, then it's the basis for further exploration.

 

[otto]

Police should look at men that live in the area and who had their cell phones turned off after 12:30 on July 13. I bet there's a connection there, especially if the phone was turned off until the late evening or the next morning.

Scott Peterson called people shortly after murdering his wife where he pretended, with friends, that everything was normal re their upcoming plans to have couples get togethers. The person that did this to Elizabeth and Lyric may have gone home for supper that day. He may have had the freedom to show up very late in the evening with no explanation. Either way, I suspect that his cell phone was turned off between noon on July 13 and July 14 for several continuous hours. That's two facts, enough to lead to the perp in Blackhawk County and possibly within 12 radial miles of Dunkerton, Iowa, in my opinion ... but it would take a lot of phone log searching ... probably a couple of months to find the person that didn't use his phone after the girls were missing, then acted weird, then got smug.

 

[Elley Mae]

Thank You!

Otto, I do want to say how much I do appreciate the maps you add to the many cases I have followed. They are an added bonus and very much looked at by these eyes.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Wasn't there a campfire in this area mentioned when this first broke or residue? I know I heard something like that. gah...now where? Live feed?

I've burned green wood, it wasn't easy but needed in the wet woods. You practically have to bake it to well done with whatever you can find to burn, if you have a match or lighter that is. At least for us in our travels.