IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[GrainneDhu]

Unlike you I never wear flip flops, but I have walked through tall grass in old-fashioned, leather sandals... only did that once. lol

So much grass got caught/tangled in them, both green grass and old dead grass from previous year. Oh, and if I recall correctly, I came out w/green grass stains on them to boot.

Have you, or anyone here, walked through tall grass in flip flops? If so, did the flip flops hold onto pieces of grass which you had to pull out?

When I was a kid, nothing came between me and my flip flops.

I can't even describe how to do it but there is a way to walk through tall grass (by tall, I mean 3 feet or more) without getting vegetation caught between your toes or flip flops. There's a trick to rolling or rotating your feet as you pick them up that keeps the vegetation out.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I believe the girls were abducted at the lake where the bikes were found. My theory is that the perp had complete control over the girls from the beginning. First with a gun. In previous cases the perps used zip ties and duct tape to control them as soon as the children were placed in a vehicle.
The girls, having no life experience to help them figure out what to do, were in survival mode. Every choice each girl made, including cooperating, was in the hopes of surviving this experience and protecting her cousin.
These were two children, 8 and 10, frightened and making decisions under duress.
Normal decision making is out the window and adult decision making is still some years in the future. Under these conditions, it would be no surprise to me that the girls just did whatever they were told to do, including walking through the tall grass. MOO, of course.

I agree with you.

Kids learn very early that obedience to authority figures is a good "survival" strategy. If Dad is crabby or some other kid has gotten the teacher upset, best be on your best manners.

Also, kids tend to believe in promises. If the perp used a combination of threats and promises ("if you do this, I'll let you go"), many or most kids will believe and comply.

 

[nikb]

I, personally, do not have a clue for fact if they were apt to break rules or not, but I got the overall, general feeling from consistent statements that it is highly unlikely. All of the fuss only a week prior with Lyric and her cousin (an older one), resulting in the police being called, actually suggests to me that such an event was unusual, not the norm.
<snipped for space>

BBM... of course I don't know either, don't know the girls or their families, but this same event about Lyric being missing earlier and police being called stood out to me too, in a different way. It sounds like it was unusual as you said, but IMO it also could imply they were worried about something happening. Maybe on a "normal" day they'd have waited longer but around that time they were already nervous for some other reason? Could be related to Lyric, to the older cousin, to someone the older cousin associated with?? No idea, just thoughts that've come to mind.

 

[Squeeze]

On another note. After watching Heather and Drew's recent interview. I'm guessing that even when this case is solved and the killer is behind bars, that we may never know the details. Heather had mentioned that she asked LE not to disclose any details at all, that she never wants to know. I can understand her feelings. My curiosity wants to know the whys, hows so I can put it together in my mind.

But it will come out at trial, regardless of her wishes. Whether or not they decide to be there is their choice.

 

[nikb]

I asked this before, if Elizabeths flip flops were found with her, then doesn't that mean she walked in? Flip flops fall off easily.

She had high-top sneakers, not flip flops.

 

[nikb]

Yes, all states are contributing to the DNA database although the precise details of who is tested varies... but in many states, there are extensive backlogs of samples to be tested. The problem is twofold: doing the tests requires highly trained personnel and there just isn't enough funding in many states to keep up with the pace of testing.

As for how long it takes to run samples, that varies widely. The simplest DNA tests can be done in 48 hours; the really complex and sensitive tests can take up to 8 weeks to run.

Fingerprints are a lot faster and, due to advances in computer matching, can be done in as little as 20 minutes. That is, assuming that a reasonably complete print was left; partial fingerprints can be difficult to impossible to definitively match to any single person.

Hm... random thought sparked by your post. I wonder if there's any way the Ancestry.com DNA data/info could somehow be linked to the LE DNA info? I was surprised how much family history info my mom was able to get from a vial of my brother's saliva when she was making a family tree for her granddaughter/my niece. I can't imagine they'd be able to use Ancestry info as definitive evidence of anything, but maybe a direction on who else to test or run more official tests on?

 

[GrainneDhu]

But it will come out at trial, regardless of her wishes. Whether or not they decide to be there is their choice.

Yep. Even if the perp cuts a plea deal, there will still be a description for the trial record of what happened.

 

[Galadriel]

My main thought in regard to grass/vegetation getting caught in flip-flops was that maybe there would be a clue as to where the girls had been before 7 Bridges, but as otto pointed out, what was green and growing in July has gone brown by now. Like foxbluff (?) said, at least it might indicate whether they walked or were carried.

Another thought re: shoes: if the girls were, in fact, kept alive until recently, maybe the level of wear/degradation would provide some clue to what happened during that time. I know it's grasping at straws, but that feels like the only thing we can do.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Hm... random thought sparked by your post. I wonder if there's any way the Ancestry.com DNA data/info could somehow be linked to the LE DNA info? I was surprised how much family history info my mom was able to get from a vial of my brother's saliva when she was making a family tree for her granddaughter/my niece. I can't imagine they'd be able to use Ancestry info as definitive evidence of anything, but maybe a direction on who else to test or run more official tests on?

Boy, that would pose so many legal questions I don't think there'd be a definitive answer for years.

 

[SoBeCzar]

Hm... random thought sparked by your post. I wonder if there's any way the Ancestry.com DNA data/info could somehow be linked to the LE DNA info? I was surprised how much family history info my mom was able to get from a vial of my brother's saliva when she was making a family tree for her granddaughter/my niece. I can't imagine they'd be able to use Ancestry info as definitive evidence of anything, but maybe a direction on who else to test or run more official tests on?

Many in my family have had our dna done privately through one lab. That lab links up every relative to our dna they have done. I have pages of distant cousins. Knowing last names, I would think it would only take an account to Ancestry.com to find anyones relatives. I'm sure LE uses all kinds of resources like that.

 

[nikb]

Boy, that would pose so many legal questions I don't think there'd be a definitive answer for years.

Yeah, I know... you're right, just drives me crazy that such a potential wealth of info is out there and probably can't be used for anything.

 

[georger]

Even if there was grass between her foot and the flip flop on July 13, today that grass would be dead and would have fallen away. Also, the bodies would be skeletonized after 4-5 months in the park, so there would be nothing to hold dead grass in place. The flip flops would have been discolored and in the process of disintegrating because of decay through exposure to 4-5 months of weather.

Different seasons leave different botanical traces if that applies - wont
say more.

It strikes me leaving the bodies locally vs other options, in that place, (in
State), was not the smartest move - that in itself may indicate a local
situation vs something which the FBI seemed convinced was "out of State
connection". Getting rid of all the evidence was possible if one had the
means ... if you get my drift. The killer may have been thinking local/State
vs Federal if that applies ...

 

[otto]

On another note. After watching Heather and Drew's recent interview. I'm guessing that even when this case is solved and the killer is behind bars, that we may never know the details. Heather had mentioned that she asked LE not to disclose any details at all, that she never wants to know. I can understand her feelings. My curiosity wants to know the whys, hows so I can put it together in my mind.

My interest is in the nature of the criminal mind, but if I was related to a victim of the type of crime that we are discussing here, I think it might be healthier to focus on the good, the positive, the known rather than the unknown, the horrifying and the evil. I think that Heather is making the best choice given her circumstances.

 

[Snowbunny]

Found this interesting:

http://www.kimt.com/content/localne...Abduction-Suspect/byySCY5e1kmGw3kNksVGtA.cspx

 

[otto]

Looking at Otto's map, I'm more convinced than I was before (which means maybe 51% sure ) that they were taken very near the house, somewhere near those parking lots and stores.

One person. He may have used a ruse, such as bumping a bike with his car and then saying he'd help them get home, or he may have just grabbed the girls and thrown them and the bikes into a van.

I imagine he drove away from there before he killed them, then drove to 7 Bridges, then drove back to town and put the bikes and purse where they were found. But he might have driven to the lake, dumped the bikes, and then gone to 7 Bridges.

I don't think that there was time to take the children 20 miles away, assault and murder them, and return the bikes to the lake. The bikes were found at about 3:40 and officially reported as "found" at 3:58. The family was searching the park, although not near the drainage pipe, by 2 PM. I think it would have been too risky to double back and put the bikes at the lake in that short time. However, if the children were abducted near the Collin's house, then taken straight to Maiden Lane ... bikes staged, then straight to 7 Bridges Park, the perp was free and clear for the next week.

 

[Whisperer]

What made the parents go to Meyer's Lake in the first place? Is it true they went there before calling LE? If the girls were not ones to ever go there, why bother searching there?

I don't recall hearing why they were there.

 

[passionflower]

I was so upset over the NEWTOWN murders that I was not on this thread.
Mostly watching TV.
My cousin lives up there and I was caught in the news.

I am so behind here I will never catch up.
Has anything happened.........DOD? COD?
any new pressers?
TIA

 

[otto]

ot ... I left the house at 8 this morning and returned at 6 to find that the pilot light had gone out in the furnace. Outside, there is snow and it's 22 degrees outside. It's mighty cold in here, but at least the furnace is back on and hopefully, soon, it will be warm again. Spoke too soon ... just double checked the pilot light ... out again. Hmmmm ... this could be problematic.

 

[Whisperer]

How long was the video caught on tape of the girls bicycling? What came before them or after them? It appeared they were moving quickly.

 

[otto]

What made the parents go to Meyer's Lake in the first place? Is it true they went there before calling LE? If the girls were not ones to ever go there, why bother searching there?

I don't recall hearing why they were there.

Tammy (the mother of the 11 year old that was away with Lyric when Lyric's parents became concerned the week before the abduction) recommended looking at Meyers Lake. Lyric had apparently asked her dad about going to Meyers Lake a couple of weeks before the disappearance. It's a small town and there aren't too many places. One or all of the reasons above may have played a part.