IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

[SouthernMom]

I think it was someone known to both girls, who said let me show you where I swim and they both went willingly.

This is an interesting theory. Have you thought about why they would go willingly when they knew they had to be home so soon? Lyric may have stayed gone too long once, but Lizzie had never done that.
As a parent of two girls, I would think that Lyric wouldn't attempt it so soon since LE had been called the previous time she stayed gone so long.

 

[SouthernMom]

I don't think the girls were walked in and I think their shoes were located near their bodies, not on them. Heather said they were shown the shoes, if they had been on their feet, the shoes would have gone with the bodies to the ME. Especially the hightops, they wouldn't have removed them from the feet. moo, of course.

We don't know whether they were shown pictures of the shoes or the actual shoes. I would think that as evidence, the shoes would have been kept somewhere else and the families only saw pictures of the shoes.

 

[Gracelin]

This is an interesting theory. Have you thought about why they would go willingly when they knew they had to be home so soon? Lyric may have stayed gone too long once, but Lizzie had never done that.
As a parent of two girls, I would think that Lyric wouldn't attempt it so soon since LE had been called the previous time she stayed gone so long.

Because they know the perp..and the perp would make it ok with mom...

 

[SouthernMom]

Unlike you I never wear flip flops, but I have walked through tall grass in old-fashioned, leather sandals... only did that once. lol

So much grass got caught/tangled in them, both green grass and old dead grass from previous year. Oh, and if I recall correctly, I came out w/green grass stains on them to boot.

Have you, or anyone here, walked through tall grass in flip flops? If so, did the flip flops hold onto pieces of grass which you had to pull out?

I agree that it is not an easy thing to do, but if I were wearing flip flops and someone with a gun was threatening me to move or he was going to shoot me and my cousin, I would move as quickly as I could through the grass.

 

[foxbluff]

Good grief!!! I'm not asking if people can walk in flip flops... I'm not asking if people can walk through tall grass/weeds while wearing flip flops.

I'm very simply, IMHO & BBM, asking:

"If Lyric walked in, given the nature of flip-flops, I'm wondering if there would be pieces of grass caught in them? You know, the way grass gets caught in regular sandals?"

 

[borndem]

I agree with mental illness awareness, correcting laws & no 20 years plus on the death penalty to be executed. Death isn't an easy subject to some. Eye for an eye. If it were mine, well, hands down.

I just read this, it's the Chicago Tribrune. Take it for what it's worth. I hope this isn't a normal day but do read the news there on twitter. smh. smh.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...cember-14-december-15-20121214,0,912168.story

This has been an emotionally hard time to absorb. My middle gd came over and she asked a lot of questions as the school alerted them. We are in the SW, far away, it's a wake up. Mental illness observance, maybe responsibilities added to the doctors or something to advise the families & tougher laws. No more In and Out.

jmo

eta, her and I went through the shooting in Tucson together. She's 15. We also debate who should be president and who shouldn't have. lol

bbm

It'smy guess, Doc, that the article prolly does represent a typical day -- if there is a Chicago resident on this board, I hope he/she will correct me if I am wrong. My statement is based only on one statistical comparison.

I live in Raleigh, NC, and its population is ~417K; Chi-town's population is ~2.7 million. I usually look at the daily arrest stats for Wake County where Raleigh is located -- we have around 20--30 arrests per day, ranging from shoplifting, etc., to murder, rape, etc. (We do not have arrests for murder daily, thank God...). I was following the Peterson case here on WS, and there was a Chicago Times article link on a post. I read it, and then I saw the daily arrests article, and there were ~1,200 arrests for that day. :what: (!!) I browsed through them briefly, and there were several arrests for murder in that one day. I sighed, but then thought about it and realized that Chicago is a big, big city, so I figured that it was a "normal" daily occurrence for a city that large. Wow. Just can't imagine it... Whew.

 

[SouthernMom]

I believe the girls were abducted at the lake where the bikes were found. My theory is that the perp had complete control over the girls from the beginning. First with a gun. In previous cases the perps used zip ties and duct tape to control them as soon as the children were placed in a vehicle.
The girls, having no life experience to help them figure out what to do, were in survival mode. Every choice each girl made, including cooperating, was in the hopes of surviving this experience and protecting her cousin.
These were two children, 8 and 10, frightened and making decisions under duress.
Normal decision making is out the window and adult decision making is still some years in the future. Under these conditions, it would be no surprise to me that the girls just did whatever they were told to do, including walking through the tall grass. MOO, of course.

 

[Bootsctr]

I don't think the girls were walked in and I think their shoes were located near their bodies, not on them. Heather said they were shown the shoes, if they had been on their feet, the shoes would have gone with the bodies to the ME. Especially the hightops, they wouldn't have removed them from the feet. moo, of course.

I think they wore their shoes to the site. He knew they would need to shoes to walk through that area. Elizabeth's purse was left behind on purpose. He told her not to bring it or Elizabeth left it behind on purpose as a message. I too think the shoes were located very near the bodies, especially Elizabeth's high tops.

 

[SouthernMom]

Good grief!!! I'm not asking if people can walk in flip flops... I'm not asking if people can walk through tall grass/weeds while wearing flip flops.

I'm very simply, IMHO & BBM, asking:

"If Lyric walked in, given the nature of flip-flops, I'm wondering if there would be pieces of grass caught in them? You know, the way grass gets caught in regular sandals?"

Just my opinion, but I think yes this is highly likely. When walking through tall grass, I have gotten grass caught in whatever footwear I had on at the moment and gotten plenty of those "hitchhikers" too. I don't know what else to call those little green sticky things.

 

[Bootsctr]

This is an interesting theory. Have you thought about why they would go willingly when they knew they had to be home so soon? Lyric may have stayed gone too long once, but Lizzie had never done that.
As a parent of two girls, I would think that Lyric wouldn't attempt it so soon since LE had been called the previous time she stayed gone so long.

I wonder if Lyric was punished for staying away so long the previous time? Was she grounded or just scolded? Was she made aware of how her being away too long frightened everyone? Maybe she just got yelled at and that was it. If so, she probably was not that scared of the repercussions for being away for too long again. She's pre-teen and pushing the boundaries. And, the thing that was different that day was that Aunt Heather was not going to be watching the girls, grandma was and grandma loved Lyric and Elizabeth very much and her punishment was practically only a scolding. Aunt Heather's punishment was likely to be much more severe. Girls figured they had plenty of time to explore while Aunt Heather was away.

 

[carbuff]

Why would she get worried if the kids are only a few minutes late, if they
are only riding 'around the block', and going by the house time after time ?
Was she watching? Had she seen them go by once already? Twice? What
is she worried about if this is an ordinary day and an ordinary bike ride ???

I wonder how well that video has been analysed (frame by frame) and by who?

If I'm watching two girls on bikes going past the house repeatedly, and expecting them to come in, and they don't come, my first thought is going to be that they had some kind of accident -- ranging from the innocuous like a flat tire to the scary like a bike accident. And considering the previous incident, I'd also be pretty mad if I thought they might be doing the same thing again.

 

[Galadriel]

I'm very simply, IMHO & BBM, asking:

"If Lyric walked in, given the nature of flip-flops, I'm wondering if there would be pieces of grass caught in them? You know, the way grass gets caught in regular sandals?"

My sisters and I all wear the cheap Old Navy flip-flops (usually sold 2/$5) all year round, just for house shoes. I wear them when I take my dogs out, and tall grass will sometimes get stuck where the plastic strap connects to the sole. All kind of things get stuck in the sole (since it's rubber-y): nutshells, small twigs, even a couple of splinters that worked their way through to my foot. Based on the photo of Lyric's flip-flops, I think it would be quite possible that some kind of organic evidence (leaves, twigs, etc.) could have been stuck either in the sole or in the space where the straps connect.

I've been following the case more closely since these precious girls were found, and I pray to God that justice is swift. I cannot understand the kind of evil that looks at these innocent souls full of hope and joy and promise, and then extinguishes it all.

 

[foxbluff]

Just my opinion, but I think yes this is highly likely. When walking through tall grass, I have gotten grass caught in whatever footwear I had on at the moment and gotten plenty of those "hitchhikers" too. I don't know what else to call those little green sticky things.

whew! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

And, yes, Lizzie's shoes may have left some clues, too. I hadn't even considered that.

I had been trying to keep my original question simply, as I have a tendency to "rattle on" until nobody knows what I'm asking. lol

As you may have anticipated, the reason I was asking my question to begin with was that I was toying w/the idea that WeedsCaughtInTheShoes might have clued CSI to believe the girls were walked in and conversely NoWeedsCaughtInShoes may have clued CSI that girls were carried in.

 

[otto]

You and a lot of others saw them. I just couldn't make out anything other than shadows/blurs. That doesn't mean nothing was there, just that my old eyes didn't see any figures.

Isn't part of the dumpster or shed ... whatever that is ... in shadow? I didn't see any moving shadows.

 

[otto]

Just for some perspective on the flip flops, many have said they don't know how she would have navigated the tall grass with flip flops. I think it is completely up to the person and their flip flopping skill. My husband can barely walk across the room in flip flops. I've hiked 5 miles in flip flops. I wear flip flops all the time, summer, winter, fall, I do it all. My flip flops don't fall off.

Personally, I think the girls walked in to where they were found. Most likely under threat.

This was no picnic, so if they were required to walk through rough terrain, similar to the rough terrain on the lake side of the fence near the drainage pipe at Meyers Lake, they would have had no choice.

 

[georger]

I think the important point is that police have been able to conclude that the two cyclists in the video clip were the girls. What we also know is that no other businesses on the main street, like the bank, had footage of the girls on their bikes. That helps in terms of defining the path they took ... meaning ... it's most likely that Wilma last saw the girls heading East towards the shopping center parking lot near the old post office, didn't see them loop back towards the house, the video shows the girls heading West on Brovan, and that is the last sighting of them.

Here is the parking lot shopping center where Wilma last saw them

(thanks to Considering for helping identify businesses in the building)

Here's the back of that shopping center

These are possible "loops" around that parking area

wow! Fantastic work! Thanks...

 

[otto]

I don't think the girls were walked in and I think their shoes were located near their bodies, not on them. Heather said they were shown the shoes, if they had been on their feet, the shoes would have gone with the bodies to the ME. Especially the hightops, they wouldn't have removed them from the feet. moo, of course.

If the children have been in that location since July 13, then there would be nothing left but bones. There wouldn't have been any feet to be on. There may have been bones in the hightops, but even that isn't certain given the time they've been in the area.

 

[SoBeCzar]

I think the girls were walked in, but that's JMO. The flip-flops could have been left by the killer after he carried her there, since we don't know if they were found on Lyric's feet, or just nearby.

You're right about the flip-flops, they aren't that easy to walk in or keep on.

That would go along with the bodies being in different places in the same area. One is killed and then the other walked in and routed the opposite way so as not to flee at the site of the others body.
This could mean two killers or that they were killed one by one. Just putting it out there to ponder. It is very hard to even write about this.

 

[foxbluff]

My sisters and I all wear the cheap Old Navy flip-flops (usually sold 2/$5) all year round, just for house shoes. I wear them when I take my dogs out, and tall grass will sometimes get stuck where the plastic strap connects to the sole. All kind of things get stuck in the sole (since it's rubber-y): nutshells, small twigs, even a couple of splinters that worked their way through to my foot. Based on the photo of Lyric's flip-flops, I think it would be quite possible that some kind of organic evidence (leaves, twigs, etc.) could have been stuck either in the sole or in the space where the straps connect.

I've been following the case more closely since these precious girls were found, and I pray to God that justice is swift. I cannot understand the kind of evil that looks at these innocent souls full of hope and joy and promise, and then extinguishes it all.

Thank you so much! This description gives me added hope that whether or not weed debris was caught in their shoes would have indeed been another clue for LE.

I hope LE got tons of clues from the little bodies and the body site. IMHO, the more they learn from that site, the easier it will be for them to come up w/the "who, what, when, and where."

 

[otto]

Good grief!!! I'm not asking if people can walk in flip flops... I'm not asking if people can walk through tall grass/weeds while wearing flip flops.

I'm very simply, IMHO & BBM, asking:

"If Lyric walked in, given the nature of flip-flops, I'm wondering if there would be pieces of grass caught in them? You know, the way grass gets caught in regular sandals?"

Even if there was grass between her foot and the flip flop on July 13, today that grass would be dead and would have fallen away. Also, the bodies would be skeletonized after 4-5 months in the park, so there would be nothing to hold dead grass in place. The flip flops would have been discolored and in the process of disintegrating because of decay through exposure to 4-5 months of weather.