IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #24

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An interview at the Body Farm, University of Tennesee, with emeritus Professor Bill Bass, the founding father of this science.

In 1977, Bass's ignorance was brought home to him when he identified a well-preserved corpse with a gunshot wound to the head as being merely one year old. There was, he reasoned, flesh still hanging on the bones, much of it still noticeably pink. In fact, it was the body of William Shy, a Civil War colonel killed in battle and buried in a sealed lead coffin. "Well," Bass muses, "I only missed it by 113 years! It made me realize how totally clueless we were about death. The only way to do it, I realized, was to let a body rot and watch it."...THE TECHNIQUES FOR RETRACING the evolution of a murder are getting ever more refined. Take soil samples. As bodies decompose, they leak five fatty acids into the ground beneath them. Each day after death, the various profiles of these acids will vary. Analysis of them can reveal the time of death, as well as pinpoint exactly how long any given body has been lying in a particular place. The soil can also reveal the presence of a corpse, even if the body itself has been removed or destroyed. The "stain" left by a body's volatile acids, which also suppresses plant life around it, can last for up to two years, leaving a kind of phantom fingerprint in the earth...Thus, soil, like maggots, becomes an "information bomb," and the dead can be reconstructed (if not resurrected) long after they have disappeared physically. In a recent case in Florida, a prison inmate confessed to a cellmate to having raped and murdered a woman he had abducted from a convenience store. Police couldn't find a body, but soil samples in several sites named by the inmate proved that one had indeed been there. The samples of earth saturated with bone minerals and fatty acids were enough to convict him...other areas still to be explored are DNA extraction and putrefaction in different contexts — like inside plastic bags. It's fascinating." A recent grisly find in a Minnesota cornfield revealed two bodies wrapped in plastic that had remained well preserved in direct sunlight. "Why?" Bass grins. "We have no idea."

http://www.aintnowaytogo.com/bodyfarm.htm

There is no way we here on this board can confidently predict the state of the bodies, in my opinion. Even the experts struggle with it.

ETA: ugh at the fingerprint of decomposition in the soil.
 
~ Would it be possible that the clothing might still hold a trace? ~

Will anyone ever tell us what really happened?? Got my doubts. :banghead:

~ Yes, its possible. Probably not nuclear dna but mtdna - maybe a partial.

Particle evidence off the clothing might also be useful. Particle evidence
has been pulled off clothing objects decades after a crime and proved
useful. The question I have, frankly, is justhow far LE will go in this case.
Based on their performance to date I would gestimate 'not very far'! Lots
of talk and fanfare for a while - little production.

I hope Im proved wrong.

The State of Iowa is not big on forensics for some reason.


I'm hoping they are watching this guys every move. They tell the public they don't have a suspect, and everyone is cleared. Well, so far, yes. But in the background doing their police work they may have someone in mind, waiting for him to slip up in order to get as much evidence as possible so they can put this guy away for life.
I saw the disappearance/death of Caylee Anthony, those investigators on a show saying they were so frustrated because Casey Anthony was arrested too soon. They were right on the verge of getting a confession of sorts either by phone texts, voice recordings, or saying something to her friends while being listened to so they could be assured of a solid conviction. But they were being pressed for time due to the public outrage for an arrest. It was out of their hands, and they weren't allowed to take it any further, thus she was arrested.
How do we know this isn't what the police are doing at this very second? We really don't.
 
An interview at the Body Farm, University of Tennesee, with emeritus Professor Bill Bass, the founding father of this science.

In 1977, Bass's ignorance was brought home to him when he identified a well-preserved corpse with a gunshot wound to the head as being merely one year old. There was, he reasoned, flesh still hanging on the bones, much of it still noticeably pink. In fact, it was the body of William Shy, a Civil War colonel killed in battle and buried in a sealed lead coffin. "Well," Bass muses, "I only missed it by 113 years! It made me realize how totally clueless we were about death. The only way to do it, I realized, was to let a body rot and watch it."...THE TECHNIQUES FOR RETRACING the evolution of a murder are getting ever more refined. Take soil samples. As bodies decompose, they leak five fatty acids into the ground beneath them. Each day after death, the various profiles of these acids will vary. Analysis of them can reveal the time of death, as well as pinpoint exactly how long any given body has been lying in a particular place. The soil can also reveal the presence of a corpse, even if the body itself has been removed or destroyed. The "stain" left by a body's volatile acids, which also suppresses plant life around it, can last for up to two years, leaving a kind of phantom fingerprint in the earth...Thus, soil, like maggots, becomes an "information bomb," and the dead can be reconstructed (if not resurrected) long after they have disappeared physically. In a recent case in Florida, a prison inmate confessed to a cellmate to having raped and murdered a woman he had abducted from a convenience store. Police couldn't find a body, but soil samples in several sites named by the inmate proved that one had indeed been there. The samples of earth saturated with bone minerals and fatty acids were enough to convict him...other areas still to be explored are DNA extraction and putrefaction in different contexts — like inside plastic bags. It's fascinating." A recent grisly find in a Minnesota cornfield revealed two bodies wrapped in plastic that had remained well preserved in direct sunlight. "Why?" Bass grins. "We have no idea."

http://www.aintnowaytogo.com/bodyfarm.htm

There is no way we here on this board can confidently predict the state of the bodies, in my opinion. Even the experts struggle with it.

ETA: ugh at the fingerprint of decomposition in the soil.


Exellent post!!! Thank you for posting this, very informative! :)
 
I'm hoping they are watching this guys every move. They tell the public they don't have a suspect, and everyone is cleared. Well, so far, yes. But in the background doing their police work they may have someone in mind, waiting for him to slip up in order to get as much evidence as possible so they can put this guy away for life.
I saw the disappearance/death of Caylee Anthony, those investigators on a show saying they were so frustrated because Casey Anthony was arrested too soon. They were right on the verge of getting a confession of sorts either by phone texts, voice recordings, or saying something to her friends while being listened to so they could be assured of a solid conviction. But they were being pressed for time due to the public outrage for an arrest. It was out of their hands, and they weren't allowed to take it any further, thus she was arrested.
How do we know this isn't what the police are doing at this very second? We really don't.

:goodpost:

Seems everyone has forgotten the 110 house blitz only 8 weeks ago.

http://www.wxow.com/story/19858307/missing-girls-investigators-recanvassing-evansdale-neighborhoods
 
Submerging in water will destroy pretty much everything, especially salt and running water, but we don't know what has been done to our girls.



Then the lack of rain (extreme drought) is in LE's favour... the clothing
may not have been washed out ...

No need to worry. I really dont think forensics will play any role in this
case, in any event. They do more for mamoth bones forensically in Iowa,
than they do for human murder victims. NatGeo or History or Discovery
Inc will even finance it! Maybe HLN will finance it in this case, do you think?

Finance what? I can't think of any case where a major corporation or media outlet was paying for any part of the investigation.
 
It's not often, if ever, that DNA has been found on bones that were left in a damp river bank for 5 months.
I don't think that we can conclude that no DNA means no sexual assault.

I agree.

Sometimes bones that have been in a damp, warm environment don't even have enough of their own DNA left to match with their own DNA from a sample previous to death or a relative.
 
I thought either she could phone home with it, or the mom or grandma could call on it in an emergency, one of the two? Glad I asked, I must have missed that.. t.y.

SBM

It was described as a non-functional phone. That means she could have used it to call 911 but no other number.

(tangential note: whenever I get a new cell phone, I donate the old one to the domestic violence project near me so that it can be used by victims of domestic violence in an emergency; I know many domestic violence organisations do this and it's a lot better than just throwing away a perfectly good but outdated cell phone)

I'm not sure an 8 year old would even think of calling 911. And since she'd been using the cell phone as an electronic game toy, it may not even have occurred to her that it could be used as a telephone.
 
Per a family member the Bremer County Sheriff has refused to release the recording of the 911 call that came in when they were found; the sheriff's wife told the family member he didn't want to because the call was very graphic. There was also a car that was gone over top to bottom by the FBI for evidence and this was confirmed by a call to the business where the car was at. I don't know if they found anything there or not though. There has also been a few snippets of information trickling down as to what was seen when the girls were found. All I know is I'd be 100% sure that if there is any evidence/suspect(s) that it'll stand up for a conviction. We all have our hopes high that there will be some break and justice can then prevail. The scary thing is that there is still a person/persons out there who did this.
 
Per a family member the Bremer County Sheriff has refused to release the recording of the 911 call that came in when they were found; the sheriff's wife told the family member he didn't want to because the call was very graphic. There was also a car that was gone over top to bottom by the FBI for evidence and this was confirmed by a call to the business where the car was at. I don't know if they found anything there or not though. There has also been a few snippets of information trickling down as to what was seen when the girls were found. All I know is I'd be 100% sure that if there is any evidence/suspect(s) that it'll stand up for a conviction. We all have our hopes high that there will be some break and justice can then prevail. The scary thing is that there is still a person/persons out there who did this.

Iowafriend, I am glad that you decided to join us!

Is it your impression that the killer just dumped the bodies where they were, or do you believe he/she placed them a certain way or marked the site to indicate their identity? I'm thinking maybe something carved on a tree or rocks placed in a certain way, etc.

Also, could you tell us what you think about whether they were killed elsewhere or if they were killed where they were found? I'm just asking your opinion.

I am sorry for the loss of your mother. Thank you for being a good friend to D & H !
 
This comment comes from Black Hawk County Sheriff Tony Thompson:

He said the development gives authorities the ability to “draw conclusions off what we already know, and some of the people we already talked to and likely open up additional avenues for us to pursue. That’s fantastic, because we were chasing down leads that were a lot of times ended up being vaporous for us. Now we're are able to commit a concerted effort in a single direction.”

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_6f1dc2ea-40bf-11e2-9db0-0019bb2963f4.html

BBM

What I wouldn't give for just one little peek into LE's files - I'd love to know what they "already know" and what conclusions can be drawn from it.

I believe Lyric and Lizzie will get the justice they and their families deserve. It might not happen as quickly as we'd like, but I firmly believe that once an arrest is made, LE's case will be very strong. JMO
 
I have no idea about any specific details. I'd imagine based on them being found though that they were not buried especially with clothing/shoes found. Thank God they were found before the snow hit and also before spring when flooding may have washed away anything left there. Usually a group of us including Drew travel back and forth at least once a week to Cedar Rapids to play hockey and we've had all kinds of discussions. There are so many possible scenarios that it makes my head spin wondering what happened. I do think that they were gone from Evansdale pretty quick with all the nearly immediate searching all around town not turning up anything. Personally I felt that there was either a retribution for a drug issue or else a sex offender; almost has to be one of the two. Every day I wake and hope to see news of an arrest/arrests.
 
I agree. If those girls have been out there for the length of time suggested by Heather's "bones" comment, I think an absence of DNA could not be considered conclusive. It would be a miracle if there was DNA given the suspected age of remains and the elements etc.

:MOO:

I must've missed that! Do you have a link?

TIA

patience please, it is quitting time at work and it may have to wait til I get back home from work. I will need to go back and look in the last thread where we all debated ad nauseum about whether girls were there a week or since disappearance.

Heather made some statements that someone was kind enough to link. It was during the interview she and Drew did recently.

ETA here is a post in the last thread during that debate Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23

No link in it but it does give me a time frame of the interview in question so I can search tonight. Long as the internet does wonk out due to storm. Thanks for your patience.

I cannot find the interview GrainneDhu was referring to in her post about Heather and "bones" so this is rumor and speculation since I can't find a link verifying.
 
I cannot find the interview GrainneDhu was referring to in her post about Heather and "bones" so this is rumor and speculation since I can't find a link verifying.

I just looked for the references and discussion, and also had problems finding links. The discussion starts on page 68 of thread 23.
 
I cannot find the interview GrainneDhu was referring to in her post about Heather and "bones" so this is rumor and speculation since I can't find a link verifying.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death
Extended interview (voice only) with Heather by KWWL starting at about 15:25/16:47 minutes. It sounds like Heather says,
"Really it is just her bones that are going to be put in that casket."

ETA: As a mother, I cannot imagine having to say that about one's child. Heartbreaking.
 
I cannot find the interview GrainneDhu was referring to in her post about Heather and "bones" so this is rumor and speculation since I can't find a link verifying.

I try to be very clear in differentiating between speculation and facts.

This is an audio interview between Heather Collins and Ron Steele:

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

At about the 15:30 mark in the interview

It's possible she meant it metaphorically but my interpretation was that she meant it literally.
 
I try to be very clear in differentiating between speculation and facts.

This is an audio interview between Heather Collins and Ron Steele:

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

At about the 15:30 mark in the interview

It's possible she meant it metaphorically but my interpretation was that she meant it literally.

Thank you for finding that. I knew Heather had said something about bones, but couldn't recall when she said it.

I feel Heather meant it literally, too.
 
http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death
Extended interview (voice only) with Heather by KWWL starting at about 15:25/16:47 minutes. It sounds like Heather says,
"Really it is just her bones that are going to be put in that casket."

ETA: As a mother, I cannot imagine having to say that about one's child. Heartbreaking.

I try to be very clear in differentiating between speculation and facts.

This is an audio interview between Heather Collins and Ron Steele:

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20310851/...beth-collins-speaks-about-her-daughters-death

At about the 15:30 mark in the interview

It's possible she meant it metaphorically but my interpretation was that she meant it literally.

Bless you guys, I could not find that danged link anywhere. I knew we had discussed it, and I knew it had been linked in the previous thread but could not for the life of me put my fingers on it.

Thank you for finding that. I knew Heather had said something about bones, but couldn't recall when she said it.

I feel Heather meant it literally, too.

I think she did as well.
 
Bless you guys, I could not find that danged link anywhere. I knew we had discussed it, and I knew it had been linked in the previous thread but could not for the life of me put my fingers on it.

SBM

I'd forgotten that it was just an audio interview, so I spent five minutes fiddling with my computer trying to get the picture to come on. I finally had to call Mr Grainne and he gave me a funny look: "honey, it's just audio, no video."

If you see a memory dashing merrily through the snow, it is probably mine. Please remind it that I really miss it.
 
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