IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #27

[iamnotagolem]

If I was abducting two kids (or engaging in any illegal activity that might lead back to me) I'd leave my stupid cell phone at home. Do people really not think of that? Maybe since I'm not über attached to mine, I would have no problem leaving it at home while I went and disposed of a body 21 miles away. I could claim I was in the shower, napping, out for a run, ringer off, any number of things to explain why I didn't answer.

I'm not trying to point to finger at any family member, I do not think the parents were involved.

Not answering the phone during that time period doesn't make someone guilty either. I never answer my cell phone and rarely answer my home phone unless it is someone I really like (SIL or Mom).

 

[hollyblue]

The pings would not show what a person was doing at the time, nor if the person was on a bike or not. What if they had a Dr's appt and decided to walk around the park and have a bite to eat for lunch?

 

[threecrazykids]

Cell phones ping off all towers that are within 25-30 miles.

When I looked at the map here:

http://www.cellreception.com/towers/towers.php?city=waterloo&state_abr=ia

it looks to me like there are more than enough towers within 25 miles of Evansdale that a cell phone could be located to within 10-15 feet of its physical location.

Can you refer me to a link that says that only ping information from cell towers located within the same municipal boundaries as a targeted cell phone can be used in court?

No, that's why I said what I did. I said I was going out on a limb by assuming that only FCC regulated tower records could be entered as evidence in court. There are regulated and unregulated towers within a network. All I was saying was that I assumed only regulated towers would be admitted as court evidence. ASSUME being the key word. Maybe LE can enter any data they have...I don't know.

We haven't been made aware that LE has exercised a search warrant for any cell phone records and I do know that is a requirement before any records would be released.

Let's not get too hung up on the semantics of it...and I guess we can all hope that whomever committed this crime left their cell phone on so their location was tracked the entire time.

 

[GrainneDhu]

If I was abducting two kids (or engaging in any illegal activity that might lead back to me) I'd leave my stupid cell phone at home. Do people really not think of that? Maybe since I'm not über attached to mine, I would have no problem leaving it at home while I went and disposed of a body 21 miles away. I could claim I was in the shower, napping, out for a run, ringer off, any number of things to explain why I didn't answer.

I'm not trying to point to finger at any family member, I do not think the parents were involved.

Not answering the phone during that time period doesn't make someone guilty either. I never answer my cell phone and rarely answer my home phone unless it is someone I really like (SIL or Mom).

Well, I would think people would leave their cell phone behind while committing a crime but actual cases show that some criminals are definitely not operating on all cylinders. There are still crimes that include fingerprint evidence, for instance.

 

[otto]

I guess I should quote myself in this just to ask...

Otto-

Are you saying you don't think the bikes were EVER laid down? That they were at the gate leaned up the whole time? I guess I could chew on that...considering LE isn't using the cyclist's sighting of the bikes.

Maybe LE didn't need to move them because they weren't EVER laying down? Maybe the girls DID lean them against the fence and the bikes that the cyclist saw weren't even the girls bikes at all and weren't there when LE showed up later. Maybe the girls bikes were actually up against the fence the whole time! That could mean that either the girls WERE off their bikes playing on the rock jetty so the perp didn't have to touch the bikes OR that he stopped them as they came along the trail and told them to lean their bikes against the fence and come with him/her etc.

Hmmm...I never thought about that.:waitasec:

Until police confirm that the earliest sighting of the bikes was at 12:20, it is not a fact. The media report from a cyclist has never been included in facts provided by police and FBI. The cyclist first told his daughter about seeing two bikes on the trail, that information was then published on social media and then it was published in the newspaper. There's no reason to assume that the cyclist's media statement is related to this case, especially since the timeline of the cyclist and the timeline of the children doesn't work.

A trained search and rescue person found the bikes at about 3:40 and investigators confirmed that they were the children's bikes at 3:58. When Abben arrived, the bikes were leaning against the fence and there is no reason to assume that anyone tampered with the evidence prior to the arrival of Abben.

When Dan (and IIRC Ollipop) described the double fenced area as a "trap", I believe they were referring to the fact that the minute the girls were between the two fences, if they were intercepted, there was no way out except through the gate. If the gate was open and someone stepped through the gate as the girls cycled along the trail, one of the children could have turned around and ridden away, but not both. I think that once one of the children was grabbed, the other one stayed. They would never have anticipated what was to come. Ollipop suggested that the girls would have been walked to the end of the double fenced area, but I'm of the opinion that they would have been taken through the gate and walked along the shore to Maiden Lane.

I'm still trying to figure this out myself, but by looking at certain information as fact, and other as rumor or unverified information, maybe it helps ... don't know.

 

[threecrazykids]

Until police confirm that the earliest sighting of the bikes was at 12:20, it is not a fact. The media report from a cyclist has never been included in facts provided by police and FBI. The cyclist first told his daughter about seeing two bikes on the trail, that information was then published on social media and then it was published in the newspaper. There's no reason to assume that the cyclist's media statement is related to this case, especially since the timeline of the cyclist and the timeline of the children doesn't work.

A trained search and rescue person found the bikes at about 3:40 and investigators confirmed that they were the children's bikes at 3:58. When Abben arrived, the bikes were leaning against the fence and there is no reason to assume that anyone tampered with the evidence prior to the arrival of Abben.

When Dan (and IIRC Ollipop) described the double fenced area as a "trap", I believe they were referring to the fact that the minute the girls were between the two fences, if they were intercepted, there was no way out except through the gate. If the gate was open and someone stepped through the gate as the girls cycled along the trail, one of the children could have turned around and ridden away, but not both. I think that once one of the children was grabbed, the other one stayed. They would never have anticipated what was to come. Ollipop suggested that the girls would have been walked to the end of the double fenced area, but I'm of the opinion that they would have been taken through the gate and walked along the shore to Maiden Lane.

I'm still trying to figure this out myself, but by looking at certain information as fact, and other as rumor or unverified information, maybe it helps ... don't know.

We also have the jogger, correct? That one WAS mentioned by LE I believe. And that person too didn't see the girls, but only the bikes. I wonder if the jogger saw the bikes laying down, or if they were leaning against the fence as well.??:waitasec:

Does anyone have the link handy of exactly WHERE the bikes were leaning against the fence? Were they leaned against the fence on the same side as the gate? Or the opposite side? When found were they still AT the gate? Or further down the path a bit?

UGH.:banghead:

 

[otto]

These were NOT trained search and rescue people. I don't know why you keep saying that. This was Evansdale, IA -- the smallest of small towns. They don't have search and rescue personnel! They were firefighters. And not even real firefighters! VOLUNTEER firefighters. I doubt they had any training in search and rescue operations AT ALL.

Had the police suspected this was an abduction from the get-go, they would have used POLICE searchers. But they obviously assumed they were searching for 2 girls who got lost, ran away or fell in the lake -- and that is why they sent volunteer fire fighters.

SOMEONE picked up the bikes. It isn't a stretch at all to assume it was the volunteer firefighters, since we know they were there.

Also, I never said Tammy "handled" the FBI dogs or that the family drove along the trail. I said Tammy supervised the FBI dogs -- as in witnessed them -- because we know that from her statement. And we know the family parked on the grass next to the Maiden Lane woods because they said they did on Nancy Grace.

Ollipop, our verified local, said that the trash was obviously old, worn, faded, and had grass growing through/over it. He even posted photos of it, long ago.

Are you thinking that volunteer firemen that are involved in firefighting and search & rescue are not trained? It seems to me that when there is a missing person, police and search & rescue start a search. I don't think I've ever heard of a search for a missing person where only police were involved.

What evidence is there that someone picked up the bikes? There's no reason to assume that the bikes were not leaned against the fence by the children.

Supervising trained FBI dogs and watching FBI dog handlers are two different things. How could the untrained observer know what trained FBI dogs are doing, what it means when they are given hand signals and what it means when they wag their tails, sit, growl, whine, or bark.

Ollipop posted a picture of three pop cans that could have been an hour old or a month old. There's no way to say when they were put there.

It sounds like the family parked on the grass just off Arbutus to the East of the Maiden Lane forest ... not on the trail and not at the crime scene.

 

[otto]

BBM

I know nothing of the training that the volunteer firefighters in Evansdale go through.

I do know that the volunteer fire department in my tiny town (about 800 people) is extensive. They go through ongoing training and many of the volunteer firefighters are also trained EMTs (they saved my life).

Those people make an extensive commitment to be firefighters. They have to commit to 20 hours of ongoing training per month, in addition to any call-outs there might be.

They are very, very real firefighters.

I suspect the same is probably true of Evansdale.

"The Evansdale fire department and emergency response personnel is manned 24/7/365 by volunteer personnel trained specifically to do the jobs they do. Their main responsibilities include extinguishing fires, ambulance requests and trauma response"

http://www.evansdale.govoffice.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={19BE35A8-1550-4231-A087-5D94F495D08D}

 

[otto]

We also have the jogger, correct? That one WAS mentioned by LE I believe. And that person too didn't see the girls, but only the bikes. I wonder if the jogger saw the bikes laying down, or if they were leaning against the fence as well.??:waitasec:

Does anyone have the link handy of exactly WHERE the bikes were leaning against the fence? Were they leaned against the fence on the same side as the gate? Or the opposite side? When found were they still AT the gate? Or further down the path a bit?

UGH.:banghead:

My understanding is that they were found at the gate and Abben said that they were leaning against the fence when he arrived. One bike had a kickstand, the other didn't. We don't know which direction they faced, or whether they were on the gate-side of the double fenced area.

 

[threecrazykids]

My understanding is that they were found at the gate and Abben said that they were leaning against the fence when he arrived. One bike had a kickstand, the other didn't. We don't know which direction they faced, or whether they were on the gate-side of the double fenced area.

I would think if they were going to go through the gate they would put their bikes just outside the gate (especially if it was a quick stop).

Then again...if they were staged what a perfect place to put them to make someone think they had gone through the gate!:waitasec:

 

[Bootsctr]

It is obvious to me that the investigation was VERY sloppy that first day. They were clearly working under the assumption that the girls had wandered off or drowned in the lake. LE allowed the family to park their cars on the grassy area next to Maiden Lane (destroying any potential tire track evidence). The volunteer firefighters obviously picked up the bikes when they found them, and leaned them on the fence (they were down when TG saw them and up when Abben got there), tampering with the scene and potentially destroying fingerprint and/or touch DNA evidence. They allowed the family and volunteer searchers to wander all over the crime scene. They didn't do a thorough pick-up of the Maiden Lane area (Ollipop found lots of trash there a few days later). They let Aunt Tammy supervise the scent dogs.

I don't know if Dan took his quad down Maiden Lane -- but it wouldn't surprise me.

Not sure about Iowa, but in Texas you just can't ride your quad anywhere. It's against the law to ride them on the highway here and even on dirt roads. And believe me people are quick to call the law on you if they catch you riding where you shouldn't be. I doubt Dan would have risked it, but maybe he would have since his daughter was missing.

 

[Bootsctr]

And if this does indeed turn out to be planned, I'm sure the person has knowledge that cell phones are like a blinking red sign over your head saying "HERE I AM!!!" and SHOULD have been smart enough to know to shut it off. I guess only time will tell on that one.

Here's what Wylma had to say about Dan's cell phone per MSM,

Cook, the girls' grandmother, said she doubted the abduction was linked to drugs but could not rule it out. She said Dan Morrissey voluntarily turned his cellphone over to investigators in recent days and explained all the calls he made and received.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24/grandma-no-idea-how-iowa-cousins-biked-to-lake/#ixzz2IkW2ZV1v

 

[Snowbunny]

These were NOT trained search and rescue people. I don't know why you keep saying that. This was Evansdale, IA -- the smallest of small towns. They were firefighters. And not even real firefighters! VOLUNTEER firefighters. I doubt they had any training in search and rescue operations AT ALL.

Had the police suspected this was an abduction from the get-go, they would have used POLICE searchers. But they obviously assumed they were searching for 2 girls who got lost, ran away or fell in the lake -- and that is why they sent volunteer fire fighters.

SOMEONE picked up the bikes. It isn't a stretch at all to assume it was the volunteer firefighters, since we know they were there.

Volunteer firefighters are real firefighters. My son was a Volunteer Firefighter and he is state certified as most firefighters are.

 

[Bootsctr]

I would think if they were going to go through the gate they would put their bikes just outside the gate (especially if it was a quick stop).

Then again...if they were staged what a perfect place to put them to make someone think they had gone through the gate!:waitasec:

That's what I think too... a quick stop and they left their bikes just outside the gate. That's keeping it as about as simple as we can.

I think there was some confusion as to when the girls were to return home, thought they had a longer time to ride their bikes and decided to go to the lake.

If we go with staging, it gets very complicated PDQ.

Came across something today that struck me as weird... someone had a "custom" job done to their car trunk... the inside of the trunk reads "grim reaper." Is that weird or what?

 

[threecrazykids]

That's what I think too... a quick stop and they left their bikes just outside the gate. That's keeping it as about as simple as we can.

I think there was some confusion as to when the girls were to return home, thought they had a longer time to ride their bikes and decided to go to the lake.

If we go with staging, it gets very complicated PDQ.

Came across something today that struck me as weird... someone had a "custom" job done to their car trunk... the inside of the trunk reads "grim reaper." Is that weird or what?

Uhhhh....YES!hwow: What the heck is wrong with people!?

 

[Bootsctr]

Maybe it's not a trunk... I googled Evansdale Iowa custom and it is Boss Interiors. It definitely says Grim Reaper though.

 

[foxbluff]

These were NOT trained search and rescue people. I don't know why you keep saying that. This was Evansdale, IA -- the smallest of small towns. They were firefighters. And not even real firefighters! VOLUNTEER firefighters. I doubt they had any training in search and rescue operations AT ALL.

Had the police suspected this was an abduction from the get-go, they would have used POLICE searchers. But they obviously assumed they were searching for 2 girls who got lost, ran away or fell in the lake -- and that is why they sent volunteer fire fighters.

SOMEONE picked up the bikes. It isn't a stretch at all to assume it was the volunteer firefighters, since we know they were there.

This is my humble opinion only... don't you wish you had simply referred to the volunteer firefighters as not being "professionals" rather than not being "real?"

And, no, I'm not expecting an answer to this nor, for that matter, am I expecting a thumbs up.

In case it's not clear, I think Jamie made a good point and am disappointed that the firefighter remark is the only thing that appears to have "struck a cord."

O/T, P.S., & jumping off your post: I don't have a link for this nor in my humble opinion do I need one!

 

[hollyblue]

Maybe it's not a trunk... I googled Evansdale Iowa custom and it is Boss Interiors. It definitely says Grim Reaper though.

Was this something you saw in an Evansdale ad from the internet....sorta confused since your in TX? That is scarily odd, imo. Do kids now days have this done alot? If from internet can you link to the pic? TIA

 

[hollyblue]

This is my humble opinion only... don't you wish you had simply referred to the volunteer firefighters as not being "professionals" rather than not being "real?"

And, no, I'm not expecting an answer to this nor, for that matter, am I expecting a thumbs up.

O/T, P.S., & jumping off your post: I don't have a link for this nor in my humble opinion do I need one!

I didn't think volunteer fire fighters had search and rescue training either. I stand corrected. :blushing:

 

[foxbluff]

I didn't think volunteer fire fighters had search and rescue training either. I stand corrected. :blushing:

No, no , no... I'm simply not making myself clear.

You don't, IMO, have any reason to blush! I, too, don't believe that volunteer firefighters would have had the kind of "search and rescue" training that would meet LE crime scene treatment.

And, IMHO, none of the first "volunteers" to search had any reason to believe that a crime was involved.

ETA: I'm basically agreeing w/Jamie's remark abt the firefighters &, IMHO, their lack of advanced search & rescue skills.