IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #28

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otto said:
Why do you think that the Evansdale Police Department needs to have "their toes stepped on?" Why do you think that everyone is unhappy with the police investigation?

Regarding City Council, what do you think the councillors could do? It's not in their job descriptions to tell trained police officers how to do their jobs.

It seems to me that it would be completely ineffective to go to the wrong department to make a request.
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I was responding to this comment from a poster who is a local, and is concerned.

Originally Posted by chelsea6
I just called the Buck Clark, our Waterloo mayors office, and he was busy the rest of the day. The secretary said he was getting ready for a city council meeting tonight. I told her, "Great, could you relay some information to him for me?" Then I told her about asking if he or the LE could make a statement concerning the Elizabeth/Lyric Evansdale girls that were found dead, to let us know even though there is still no new information that they care about our safety as a community, etc.

I was merely advising her that if the Mayor is who she wished to speak to, she is allowed to attend the council meeting and address council.

I did not instruct her to do so, recommend she do so, advise her to do so, I merely advised her of her rights as a tax payer.

My last job was for the City, and I dealt daily with unhappy tax payers who try to speak to the Mayor for whatever reason.

It seems you consistently "get the wrong end of the stick" where my posts are concerned, I find your replies are quite hostile and you appear very quick to find offence where none is meant.

I would suggest no reply at all is better than snark.
 
otto said:
I think that this is the same answer you will get any time you contact someone outside of the police department that is handling the case. Everyone has their job description and they cannot step outside of that role without risking some sort of negative consequence. It seems to me that the only answer you'll get is that police are doing their job and that when they need input from the public, they will make a request. Until that time, I think it is expected that people have faith in the officers that are trained to do their jobs, and who are doing that job with the assistance of the FBI.
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Just because a person asks an officer questions doesn't necessarily mean that person lacks faith in the officer. It all depends on how the questions are asked. Example: "Officer Shanicknanook...you don't have to tell me who you think the killer is, or even tell me if you have arrested someone yet, but would you be able to tell me if you have a person or persons of interest? Can you verify the last time the girls were seen? If you could give me any information that would not harm your investigation I would be very grateful." The office says he will take your name and number and get back to you or he tells you that he can't give out any information......(been there). But guess what... you were brave enough to make the call and let them know you have a voice, and you care. I for one, feel Chelsea is BRAVE for not sitting in her chair keeping her seat warm, she it TRYING to make a difference. If she fails she fails but at least she is trying to do something. I am not saying she should get in anyone's face but there are ways you can overhear things sometimes. I have went to bar's (with a friend never by myself) in hopes of seeing or overhearing things, sat in coffee shops, used different vehicles, wore hats and and sunglasses when hanging posters, searched family trees to see who was related to who, etc etc. Sorry I rambling but and its not towards any one on here, it just irks me when I think about how smug the person that did this is feeling right now.
 
chelsea6 said:
I just called the Buck Clark, our Waterloo mayors office, and he was busy the rest of the day. The secretary said he was getting ready for a city council meeting tonight. I told her, "Great, could you relay some information to him for me?" Then I told her about asking if he or the LE could make a statement concerning the Elizabeth/Lyric Evansdale girls that were found dead, to let us know even though there is still no new information that they care about our safety as a community, etc.
She told me they can't really do that because this concerns Evansdale police, and this is Waterloo. It would be sort of like stepping on someone's toes for one city to comment on another towns affairs. As far as new information, she didn't know if the exact cause of death was given, but that would certainly be tied into trying to find the person or persons that did this, which would be handled under the authority of the town of Evansdale.

I'm not good at shorthand, so this is MOO, basically from all of the conversation. :cow:
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You Go Girl!!

Yes I hope that this will be the pebble in the pond..
I hope that it spreads!!!
Thank you for taking your heart and giving it a voice!!!!
 
SapphireSteel said:
People need to be careful of what they wish for.

Heather and Drew may say this now, but the thing is, how can they or anyone be sure at this stage that the perp is not also a loved one?

Does it then become, I want the DP, but not if it's my son/grandson/bffs son/nephew who is found guilty?

The desire is understandable if the perp is an all round oxegyn thief, but not many people are totally disgusting and evil through and through. Sometimes "good" people do terrible things, especially it seems where that awful drug is concerned. It doesn't mean they weren't/aren't lovable and loved at some stage, and you will be causing other innocents to also suffer huge grief if you insist on taking the life of their (guilty) loved one. Even oxegyn thieves have children that love them.

It just seems to me that two wrongs don't make a right. :dunno:

At the end of the day the main reason we abolished the DP here is because we don't trust our politicians enough to administer it properly. We don't trust them with our taxes, and we most certainly don't trust them with an individual's life. LE are funded by the government. It's just a bit naive to support a system of legal murder, especially when we know corruption exists, and evidence can be manufactured.

Only poor people tend to get executed, and far too many are being exonerated later. :(

http://www.innocenceproject.org/
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If my brother killed my kid, I'd have no problem giving him the death penalty and sure as heck hope police found out before I did.

I've honestly wondered a few times if police are keeping quiet because dan has nothing to lose, if he finds out who killed the girls he could take matters into his own prison bound hands.
 
Do police departments announce when a case is considered 'cold' or does it just get quietly pushed to the bottom of the pile?

I think that locals are well within their rights to inquire if a case is still an active investigation, if progress is being made, and even how many detectives are working it full-time, if the FBI is still involved, etc.
 
SapphireSteel said:
I was responding to this comment from a poster who is a local, and is concerned.

I was merely advising her that if the Mayor is who she wished to speak to, she is allowed to attend the council meeting and address council.

I did not instruct her to do so, recommend she do so, advise her to do so, I merely advised her of her rights as a tax payer.

My last job was for the City, and I dealt daily with unhappy tax payers who try to speak to the Mayor for whatever reason.
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<respectfully snipped>

Good to know that no one is advocating that "Evansdale PD NEED their toes stepped on."
 
Tennlyn said:
Do police departments announce when a case is considered 'cold' or does it just get quietly pushed to the bottom of the pile?

I think that locals are well within their rights to inquire if a case is still an active investigation, if progress is being made, and even how many detectives are working it full-time, if the FBI is still involved, etc.[/quote]
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FOXBLUFF'S REPLY TO TENNLYN'S POST:

BBM - Sounds very reasonable to me.

Just jumping off Tennlyn's post... I, for one, am not expecting LE to call a PC unless they need help from the public, have made an arrest, etc. due to them having stated that they would not be holding regular pressers and that they won't be giving out any info that could compromise this case. I understand that.

I imagine other posters are tired of me saying it, but I want the press to simply ask LE two simple questions to be responded to via e-mail:

Q: Are all test results back from the autopsy?

Q: Have you now changed the classification of this case to a homicide?

In other words, I want them to say something, anything... IMO, answering either of the above questions via e-mail would in no way compromise the case or cause them to have to field other questions. And, if they answered, hopefully they would add that they're still agressively working the case, blah, blah, blah... This would, at least, give the media something to bring the case back into public view.

If LE ignores the questions (or states they won't answer the questions) then the media could report on that.
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The silence of the masses and unquestioning belief in "those in charge" seems to be quaint and naive behaviour in the 21st Century.

If we hadn't have had humungous and public LE/DA screw ups in the form of the Ramsey, the Anthony, OJ, need I go on, then cow-like public acceptance would be still understandable.

If we lived in Communist China or North Korea, ditto. They don't question their public servants either, or expect transparency or accountability from them.

However the the media savvy, suspicious public that we have today are not going to be satisfied for long with the "don't question us, we know what we're doing" attitude that LE tend to display in news-worthy cases these days.

Freedom of Speech applies to everyone...so if you're not happy with being treated like a mushroom (eg kept in the dark and fed bs) then speak up, to your local representative, your local government, your state or federal government, your Police Commissioner.

This case could easily end up like those above, floundering amongst gutless DA's and fumbling LE, plea bargains and lawyers.

The only way to prevent that happening is for everyone's motives to be transparent and above reproach...and the only way to ensure THAT is for the public to demand accountability.

The days of those "in charge" being above reproach or criticism are long gone in the West (fortunately), even though a few staunch individuals still apparently believe in their infallibility, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Some folks believe in the tooth fairy too I guess. :waitasec:
 
I wonder if the whole ~patience attitude is a reason why so many cases go unsolved. Another thing I wonder is if a case, where at the one-year mark, people are still talking about it, it's still in the media, people want answers, etc...If there more LE assigned to that type of case, and more $$ still being pumped into it at that point...than a case where people just figure that LE is working it, don't want to put any pressure on them, nothing in the media anymore, etc.

For example, in Baby Lisa's case, the task force disbanded in late November. That is shortly after Baby Lisa's case faded out of the media. I have to wonder if the case had continued to be a staple of the morning shows and cable news programs, if the task force would've stayed together longer. The last MSM thread we had for that case was November 23. The task force disbanded November 23. Maybe it's just a coincidence.
 
SapphireSteel said:
I'm seriously wondering if our posters have triggered this by calling their Mayor...????

Sadly, I note the girls aren't on the agenda.

You can guarantee it will be the top item in everyone's minds though.

:cow:
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BBM - Yes, SS, I noticed that, too.

I was simply thinking that there might be an opportunity for an audience member to ask a question of choice during the meeting, which wasn't on the agenda. Or, barring that option, might have the opportunity to chat with (and question) attending officials of BHCSO or of Evansdale before or after the meeting.

(I have zero idea of who sets the agenda for such a town hall meeting in IA, thus I'm unable to advise a local as to who one needs to contact in order to be added to the agenda.)
 
foxbluff said:
BBM - Yes, SS, I noticed that, too.

I was simply thinking that there might be an opportunity for an audience member to ask a question of choice during the meeting, which wasn't on the agenda. Or, barring that option, might have the opportunity to chat with (and question) attending officials of BHCSO or of Evansdale before or after the meeting.

(I have zero idea of who sets the agenda for such a town hall meeting in IA, thus I'm unable to advise a local as to who one needs to contact in order to be added to the agenda.)
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As it's described as a "meeting" I would assume information is going to go both ways, by which I mean people will get a chance to speak.

There is probably an open question time scheduled in the agenda, at least.

Hopefully the media and concerned locals will attend and take full advantage. They may not get any answers, but at least they will be heard.

ETA: has BHCS ever held a town meeting like this before, in recent memory?
 
iamnotagolem said:


If my brother killed my kid, I'd have no problem giving him the death penalty and sure as heck hope police found out before I did.

I've honestly wondered a few times if police are keeping quiet because dan has nothing to lose, if he finds out who killed the girls he could take matters into his own prison bound hands.
Click to expand...

What if your child killed your child?
 
SapphireSteel said:
The silence of the masses and unquestioning belief in "those in charge" seems to be quaint and naive behaviour in the 21st Century.

If we hadn't have had humungous and public LE/DA screw ups in the form of the Ramsey, the Anthony, OJ, need I go on, then cow-like public acceptance would be still understandable.

If we lived in Communist China or North Korea, ditto. They don't question their public servants either, or expect transparency or accountability from them.

However the the media savvy, suspicious public that we have today are not going to be satisfied for long with the "don't question us, we know what we're doing" attitude that LE tend to display in news-worthy cases these days.

Freedom of Speech applies to everyone...so if you're not happy with being treated like a mushroom (eg kept in the dark and fed bs) then speak up, to your local representative, your local government, your state or federal government, your Police Commissioner.

This case could easily end up like those above, floundering amongst gutless DA's and fumbling LE, plea bargains and lawyers.

The only way to prevent that happening is for everyone's motives to be transparent and above reproach...and the only way to ensure THAT is for the public to demand accountability.

The days of those "in charge" being above reproach or criticism are long gone in the West (fortunately), even though a few staunch individuals still apparently believe in their infallibility, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Some folks believe in the tooth fairy too I guess. :waitasec:
Click to expand...

Pat Brown said…(LUV this Quote)
We could use a strong accountability system not dependent on appeals, but rather oversight. The public/citizens have a right to know exactly how decisions are made and cases are handled.

It does not have to be in the midst of the case but certainly afterward there should be transparency. If there isn’t, how can we address issues of corruption, incompetance, and error? We need to know in order to fix problems and hold people accountable for what is supposed to be work done on behalf of the citizens.

Somehow “the interest of the state” seems to preclude the citizenry which is odd considering the state IS the citizenry, well, at least in a democratic republic with a constitution...
 
SapphireSteel said:
The silence of the masses and unquestioning belief in "those in charge" seems to be quaint and naive behaviour in the 21st Century.

If we hadn't have had humungous and public LE/DA screw ups in the form of the Ramsey, the Anthony, OJ, need I go on, then cow-like public acceptance would be still understandable.

If we lived in Communist China or North Korea, ditto. They don't question their public servants either, or expect transparency or accountability from them.

However the the media savvy, suspicious public that we have today are not going to be satisfied for long with the "don't question us, we know what we're doing" attitude that LE tend to display in news-worthy cases these days.

Freedom of Speech applies to everyone...so if you're not happy with being treated like a mushroom (eg kept in the dark and fed bs) then speak up, to your local representative, your local government, your state or federal government, your Police Commissioner.

This case could easily end up like those above, floundering amongst gutless DA's and fumbling LE, plea bargains and lawyers.

The only way to prevent that happening is for everyone's motives to be transparent and above reproach...and the only way to ensure THAT is for the public to demand accountability.

The days of those "in charge" being above reproach or criticism are long gone in the West (fortunately), even though a few staunch individuals still apparently believe in their infallibility, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Some folks believe in the tooth fairy too I guess. :waitasec:
Click to expand...

Believing in the tooth fairy as an adult is rather naive, and I don't think there is anything naive about trusting law enforcement to do what they are trained (and paid) to do. As I mentioned in an older post, this case is probably the largest one many of them have handled, or will handle, and I'm confident they are not twiddling their thumbs just waiting for something to happen. JMO

I know many locals are concerned that there hasn't been more info about the status of the investigation, and I can understand those concerns. But if LE has nothing to tell, what good is it for them to issue a statement to that effect?

Frankly, I don't believe anyone who is posting on this thread has hands-on experience in a double abduction/double murder investigation (or any murder investigation). So how can we sit in front of our computers and suggest that LE is not doing a good job simply because an arrest has not been made in a very complex case, or because updates aren't being issued by LE?

I share in everyone's frustration that no one has been held accountable yet for Lyric and Lizzie's deaths. But the only statement I want LE to make is that they have made an arrest. Until that happens, I'm content to let them do their jobs. JMO
 
Foxfire said:
Pat Brown said…(LUV this Quote)
We could use a strong accountability system not dependent on appeals, but rather oversight. The public/citizens have a right to know exactly how decisions are made and cases are handled.

It does not have to be in the midst of the case but certainly afterward there should be transparency. If there isn’t, how can we address issues of corruption, incompetance, and error? We need to know in order to fix problems and hold people accountable for what is supposed to be work done on behalf of the citizens.

Somehow “the interest of the state” seems to preclude the citizenry which is odd considering the state IS the citizenry, well, at least in a democratic republic with a constitution...
Click to expand...

I'm 100% in favor of LE being accountable to the public they serve. And after an arrest is made, a trial is held, and a sentence is imposed in this case, the citizens of Black Hawk County have every right to question how the case was handled. JMO
 
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