IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #28

[otto]

Have you watched the video I linked? :dunno:

Either way, it's a fairly unimportant detail and as there have been complaints about "nit picking" I'm not going to get into another bunch of right fighting about it.

I came across it and thought I'd share.

The difference is a matter of feet between public and private land and my point really was that the area is completely accessible by ordinary car and far, far more well used than I had originally thought.

ETA: Here's what I originally said -

By the way I found a youtube clip of the area they were found, it is very gloomy and out of the way. It is also on private land, has a house within easy walking distance, and is completely accessible by ordinary car because it is kept mowed right up to where the woods begin so someone could easily have driven right up then walked the girls in or possibly even carried them although this seems unlikely as the undergrowth in the wooded area was very high at the time.

I find it quite disappointing that only one irrelevant detail is being ripped apart (even though we have no way of knowing for sure if it's actually wrong!) yet the rest of what I said has been overlooked.

The location of the crime scenes are pretty important in an abduction/murder of two children. The difference is not a matter of feet.

The location identified in the video is not the location that you identified on private land on the 25 acre parcel. The location of the bodies is no where near the place identified by the person with a video camera.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The location of the crime scenes are pretty important in an abduction/murder of two children. The difference is not a matter of feet.

The location identified in the video is not the location that you identified on private land on the 25 acre parcel. The location of the bodies is no where near the place identified by the person with a video camera.

Perhaps you could mark the exact location of the bodies on your map and repost it?

Or are they the little pink "dashes"? If so, it's more or less the same spot. :waitasec:

 

[otto]

So "nitpicking" is actually "fact finding" depending on perspective. :floorlaugh:

Fact finding would include some facts, so if anyone has something regarding the exact placement of the bodies other than something a journo said, please share!

As far as I know LE have never publicly confirmed the exact spot the girls were found, it has all been "sources say". Obviously I've missed something again! :seeya:

In terms of discussing an abduction and murder of two children, facts are very important ... and facts are never a matter of "perspective".

The location where the bodies were found was identified based on news articles and, more importantly, photos of the area.

 

[otto]

They were definitely in 7 bridges, and that is where the local took the journalist.

The spot was (he said) on private ground but as we know from Otto's maps, the bodies could literally have lain across both public and private land as they share a common border and there is no fencing or signs to indicate exactly where one ends and the other begins.

I could make a video and claim that the children were found at the zoo, but that doesn't make it true. In this discussion, doesn't it make more sense to stick with the facts per police, media and photos (aerial and ground level)?

 

[otto]

Perhaps you could mark the exact location of the bodies on your map and repost it?

Or are they the little pink "dashes"? If so, it's more or less the same spot. :waitasec:

The X on the property line map is where the children were found.

Here's another map.

Before you think that I cooked this up all by myself, I suggest that you review all of the aerial photos, the ground photos and carefully examine maps to identify the correct location. I can tell you that this location on the map was identified through a cooperative effort by several people, not all of whom participate in this discussion.

 

[Tennlyn]

The X on the map is where the children were found.

Here's another map.

Before you think that I cooked this up all by myself, I suggest that you review all of the aerial photos, the ground photos and carefully examine maps to identify the correct location. I can tell you that this location on the map was identified through a cooperative effort by several people, not all of whom participate in this discussion.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #22

I found this comparison of a photo of the recovery to the map extremely helpful. There were several others done back in December that really matched recovery scene photos to the maps. :moo:

ETA: Thanks Otto! You got it reposted before I could. Your maps are amazing!!!

 

[iamnotagolem]

They were definitely in 7 bridges, and that is where the local took the journalist.

The spot was (he said) on private ground but as we know from Otto's maps, the bodies could literally have lain across both public and private land as they share a common border and there is no fencing or signs to indicate exactly where one ends and the other begins.

The area that Otto indicated the bodies being found (and I agree with based on the ariel photos from the media and using google maps) is not near any private land.

Do you have a source indicating there is no fence between the public land and private land? I'm not familiar with that area so I'm genuinely curious. I know it's been mentioned that Seven Bridges was a party area back in the day, I'd think some bordering land owners may put up barbed wire fences to keep partygoers off of their property and avoid potential damage to their crops.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The area that Otto indicated the bodies being found (and I agree with based on the ariel photos from the media and using google maps) is not near any private land.

Do you have a source indicating there is no fence between the public land and private land? I'm not familiar with that area so I'm genuinely curious. I know it's been mentioned that Seven Bridges was a party area back in the day, I'd think some bordering land owners may put up barbed wire fences to keep partygoers off of their property and avoid potential damage to their crops.

Only what the local said on the video and of course the maps.

The private land the old guy indicated is right in the bend of the river, in a wooded area.

There is a wide containment strip between the crop land and the wooded area. The landowners keep it mowed and flat all year and it is maybe a 30ft band of mowed flat grass.. There would be no fear of party goers accidentally getting lost in the corn, they would have to purposely leave the woods and cross this wide containment strip before you were in the actual farming area.

The old guy said this meant that you actually have an unofficial road (on private land) dividing crops from woods, which is how (in his opinion) they accessed the wood right where they did. They could have driven an ordinary car right up there.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I truly believe that there would be a huge difference if the girls were found on private vs public land. I would have a completely different opinion on the perp.

If the bodies were found on private land, then the landowner would fall under suspicion as well as any acquaintances that have or have had access to the land. If the perp accessed the and via public land, then it would seem they were trying to put suspicion on the landowner.

Hopefully that explains a bit more why it's important to me to ascertain whether the girls bodies were found on public land as indicated by the media vs private and as suggested by the youtuber.

 

[carbuff]

Just for everybody's reference, I went and pulled links to some of the photos of the Seven Bridges scene from Amandareconwith's case archive. I didn't pull everything, just the ones that showed the location where LE was working. I also didn't include the ones that showed LE searching the roads and fields.

News helicopter view of the area where the trucks gathered -- the farthest point where a car or truck could drive:-
http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...y -IA-/121012confirmed.jpg.html?sort=6&o=112

I think this is near the entrance to the park:
http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...rissey -IA-/120712site.jpg.html?sort=6&o=123

Note the white marks at the very top right of this photo: http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...ssey -IA-/120612wapsi3.jpg.html?sort=6&o=150
Closer view of the white marks, which appear to be tarp or vinyl and are quite large.
http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...ssey -IA-/120612closer.jpg.html?sort=6&o=152
Another view: http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/...- Lyric Cook-Morrissey -IA-/120612wapsi1.jpg
This one shows where the white marks are relative to the river: http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...ssey -IA-/120612wapsi5.jpg.html?sort=6&o=154

The above locations marked on an aerial view map by one of our members:
http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...rissey -IA-/7bridges11.jpg.html?sort=6&o=124

 

[SapphireSteel]

The X on the property line map is where the children were found.

Here's another map.

Before you think that I cooked this up all by myself, I suggest that you review all of the aerial photos, the ground photos and carefully examine maps to identify the correct location. I can tell you that this location on the map was identified through a cooperative effort by several people, not all of whom participate in this discussion.

I know I'm going to regret saying this, but your map marker doesn't appear to be in the correct spot to me.

If the old guy was right, go up for half the map then to the left just above the roadway. There is a very similar appearing curve in the river with a wooded area between it and the road. If you go to the short dead end road, I believe that is where we see LE parked in the crime scene photos. The spot you have marked has no road.

You can also just see the containment area that the old guy pointed and that it comes right up to the suggested site, which gives easier and closer access than the actual road does...assuming they crossed the river.

Hm....do you want to go canoeing, girls? Could have been a tactic (unlikely, goes against KISS)...then there would be no tyre tracks to find on the road access because they didn't actually use it...just thinking out loud here.

 

[otto]

The area that Otto indicated the bodies being found (and I agree with based on the ariel photos from the media and using google maps) is not near any private land.

Do you have a source indicating there is no fence between the public land and private land? I'm not familiar with that area so I'm genuinely curious. I know it's been mentioned that Seven Bridges was a party area back in the day, I'd think some bordering land owners may put up barbed wire fences to keep partygoers off of their property and avoid potential damage to their crops.

Seven Bridges County Park was actually a recreation area where there were many recreation programs for children and youth, like water craft sports. It was also very popular picnic area for families until the 270 Street bridge collapsed, when the park lost it's popularity and now it is pretty much abandoned. As far as I can tell, the bridge probably collapsed in about 1993 during one of the major Iowa floods.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I know I'm going to regret saying this, but your map marker doesn't appear to be in the correct spot.

If the old guy was right, go up for half the map then left. There is a very similar appearing curve in the river that has the road access. The crime scene photos show LE parked on a road, but the spot you have marked has no road.

Also if you look to the top edge of the map you can clearly see the containment area that the old guy pointed and that it comes right up to the suggested site, which gives easier and closer access than the actual road does.

I thought that, too. But if you look closely at the pics of the girls under the sheets there are some from various angles and you can see that sharp bend in the creek right where their bodies were located. You can also see the other tributary as it heads off to the northeast.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I thought that, too. But if you look closely at the pics of the girls under the sheets there are some from various angles and you can see that sharp bend in the creek right where their bodies were located. You can also see the other tributary as it heads off to the northeast.

You can't see the road though.

This would indicate to me, it's the wrong spot. A road is pretty distinct on a map no matter how much undergrowth is around.

 

[iamnotagolem]

You can't see the road though.

This would indicate to me, it's the wrong spot. A road is pretty distinct on a map no matter how much undergrowth is around.

You can see the road pretty clearly in this pic, it's even been circled.

http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...rissey -IA-/7bridges11.jpg.html?sort=6&o=124

 

[iamnotagolem]

http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...ssey -IA-/120612wapsi1.jpg.html?sort=6&o=153

This pic you can clearly see the bends in the river that only occur where Otto has indicated on his map. It's a completely different perspective than a lot of the pics. Hth

 

[cindersoot]

I could make a video and claim that the children were found at the zoo, but that doesn't make it true. In this discussion, doesn't it make more sense to stick with the facts per police, media and photos (aerial and ground level)?

:floorlaugh:

 

[cindersoot]

You can't see the road though.

This would indicate to me, it's the wrong spot. A road is pretty distinct on a map no matter how much undergrowth is around.

If you are referring to the place where the man was walking, that is the end row to a field and not a road.

 

[carbuff]

You can't see the road though.

This would indicate to me, it's the wrong spot. A road is pretty distinct on a map no matter how much undergrowth is around.

The road is tree-covered at that point. Even in the winter when the trees are bare, it's partly obscured.

 

[SapphireSteel]

You can see the road pretty clearly in this pic, it's even been circled.

http://s296.beta.photobucket.com/us...rissey -IA-/7bridges11.jpg.html?sort=6&o=124

Something's been circled, not sure by whom.

You can see the little dead end road I am talking about up to the left.

The old guy said it was just in there.

The road LE are on in the photo doesn't appear to me to be a "turnaround". It appears to be a definite maintained road that runs straight then stops dead. Just like the dead end road on the map.

The circled area just looks like a clearing. There is no maintained road visible.

If you've spent a lot of time driving around the bush you know that the local council go out there and regularly maintain roads. There is a difference in the appearance, one is graded and has a prepared surface and an informal track does not.

LE look like they're standing on a maintained road not a clearing.