IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[watcher9]

This case on WS is about two girls, Mattie Restine and Patty Pritz, ages 13 and 14 out for a swim on a summer's day, who were ultimately found together, both had been beaten/sexually assaulted and shot at close range.Many in the town were suspected...
NM NM - Double murder of Mattie Restine (13) & Patty Pritz (14), Carlsbad, 1961 - #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks for posting this case, I was unaware of it

In reading through the posts, I found this one interesting:

Mattie Restine was not raped and he [coroner] was unable to determine if Patty Restine had been molested sexually. Her body, he said, was in an advanced stage of decomposition.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NM NM - Double murder of Mattie Restine (13) & Patty Pritz (14), Carlsbad, 1961 - #2

Statistically, sexual assault is the primary reason a perp abducts/murders a child. But in this double abduction/homicide, sexual assault apparently was not the primary factor as it pertains to Mattie Restine.

So again, I have to wonder if there are different reasons a perp abducts and murders two girls.

Thanks for posting this case.

I too scanned some of the posts as I was also unfamiliar with the case and was startled with some of the facts in the case being very similar to this case. It happened 50+ years ago in Carlsbad, NM and a witness saw a 20 something year old grabbing the girls and putting them in his car. They were taken some 13 miles away where they were shot and killed. Hunters found their bodies a few days later so maybe they had more possible evidence that could be worked now like DNA?

Anyway, I know it's probably a coincidence but could a 70+ year old man be committing another crime?

I'm going back and check on some of these other cases and see if we could possibly have a serial killer. I would hope that LE are already talking to these other LE departments about similar cases.

 

[superbee]

Can I call you Bootsy? It's an endearing name to me.

I want to expound on this and go off on a limb. (Pun?)

I am hurt that Dear Lyric seems to be marginalized throughout.
She doesn't get the headlines, attention etc.

I also feel hurt that FB deleted Lyrics memorial.

I personally feel memorials are usually private with family and friends.
Again, I'm in the floral business and we do funerals all the time.
The only time one is "high profile", is when it's in the news. Even then, families have the right to declare privacy.

2 teenage boys were killed during Hurricane Sandy, very sad. Community came out to support the family during the funeral. That was it.

It was dignified.

A young man drowned last year tragically. Community came out to support the family, that was it. (BTW, I work directly with the families)

Lions club came in one day for a funeral. I knew this young man, I worked with his Mother. He OD'd from heroin. Bright, smart, actually a police officer. He went from pain killers to heroin-true story.

My point is we are in no position to judge anyone. We just don't know the details. We can gossip and speculate, that's about it.

I will continue to stand for Lyric. It's the least I can do.

Pain is an awful thing that can drive people mad, and take almost anything trying to find relief. My husband had a heart bypass 10 years ago, the old kind where they cut your rib cage right down the front. The pain of that, and the heart operation must have been unreal. Then, the next day, they had to redo all the closing up of his rib cage. The nurse told me one of the drugs in the mixture he got was heroin. Nobody can heal when they are in horrific and constant pain.

I feel so much compassion for Lyric. I had a friend who grew up in similar circumstances, not murdered thank God, but she shared her pain of the constant upheaval of the family because of addiction, not being able to have a life in her own home and bedroom, having to live at grandparents' homes, and relatives homes. It is really, really hard on a child, even with the love and support of many family members. The one picture of Lyric, where she has a whimsical smile on the corner of her mouth. I saw the same look many times on my friend. Such heavy burdens on such young people.

What makes me so angry is the who intruded in these lives, not out of love and support, but with evil to harm 2 innocent girls riding their bikes on a summer day.

 

[superbee]

:what:

gads... too late to edit spelling... now I'll spend the rest of the day picturing angels sewing! :floorlaugh:

Maybe Sewing Angels are the very best kind!!

 

[threecrazykids]

Just a general question...hopefully someone knows the answer to:

What evidence is required to obtain an arrest warrant for a murder? What ducks have to be in a row before one will be issued?

I'm just trying to determine what would be missing (or needed for that manner) that's preventing an arrest warrant from being issued.

Do you need:

Cause of death?
DNA evidence?
Weapon used to commit the murder (if any weapon was used)?
Motive?
Evidence of the perp being at the location of at least one, if not all crime scenes?
Determine and prove where the actual murder took place (if it wasn't the same location as the discovery site)?

How many of these (plus any others, if required) have to be met before someone would be charged with a murder?

Please add any other evidence that would be required before you feel an arrest warrant would be issued to charge someone with murder.

Thanks guys!:seeya:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Just a general question...hopefully someone knows the answer to:

What evidence is required to obtain an arrest warrant for a murder? What ducks have to be in a row before one will be issued?

I'm just trying to determine what would be missing (or needed for that manner) that's preventing an arrest warrant from being issued.

Do you need:

Cause of death?
DNA evidence?
Weapon used to commit the murder (if any weapon was used)?
Motive?
Evidence of the perp being at the location of at least one, if not all crime scenes?
Determine and prove where the actual murder took place (if it wasn't the same location as the discovery site)?

How many of these (plus any others, if required) have to be met before someone would be charged with a murder?

Please add any other evidence that would be required before you feel an arrest warrant would be issued to charge someone with murder.

Thanks guys!:seeya:

In the old days all they needed was suspicion and "evidence", which was often merely circumstantial.

Now juries tend to demand high tech evidence like DNA and a case like this is unlikely to get to court without it.

Fortunately we have the bodies which will help inordinately.

Some forensic results take time. I have read of cases being shelved for years until someone realises an expert somewhere has knowledge that may help. I am thinking specifically of a case where a tiny scrap of pollen found on a suspect's car was eventually sent to a scientist here in Australia, who finally identified it after it had confounded all tests in the US. This led directly to the arrest and conviction of the perp by proving he was in physical contact with a combination of pollens that was unique to the dump site.

If there is little or no forensic evidence, LE may still believe they have a perp and plenty for an arrest - but the DA may not agree. It is often the political side of the triangle that prevents arrests, not the LE side.

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Maybe Sewing Angels are the very best kind!!

The Angels need to step up now for Lizzie and Lyric...everyone else seems busy with either court, rehab, jail, tv interviews, or the concert.

 

[Bootsctr]

For BunnyHop :boing:

The tree farm isn't associated with Seven Bridges, it just bumps up against the property. In my first video you see me drive past the park down to the dead end which is the tree farm.

It's owned by Mould's but I believe it might be the Wapsi Pine's Tree Farm?

http://www.kwwl.com/story/20180258/2012/11/25/droughts-impact-on-christmas-tree-farms

Looks like maybe 2 generations of tree farming/nursery/landscaping? The tree farm is what backs up to Seven Bridges. The other business (son, possibly?) looks to be in Cedar Falls and does snow removal, landscaping, etc.

http://wapsiepines.com/

http://www.wapsiepinestreefarm.com/page6.html

May be just me, but I think there is a link. . .

 

[B4igo2it]

This particular case has a unique set of circumstances which make this highly likely in my estimation.

1. these girls were street smart and educated on stranger danger. We know this for a fact.

Usually a perp snatches what he wants. This case it appears as though he WAITED for what he wanted...which implies to me at least, that he knew his prey, and knew they were coming, and was waiting for them in particular, which in turn implies he knew them well.
:

snipped for space & BBM -

1st BBM: I was going to emphasize this also, Aunt Tammy told us she taught the girls about "Stranger Danger" & the schools do also

2nd BBM: It may also imply that although he did not actually know them well, he knew their habits, paths and routes. The guy watering his yard had seen "E" more than once and I am left to wonder if she often took this route and was showing it to "L" that day.

(Me and my little sister had our set bicycle routes ... from one familiar place to another. We would swing by Green Giant and grab a handful of peas, swing by to see our grandfather to get ice cream money, swing by the swimming pool, hit the drive-in for an ice cream cone and then head home - all in a matter of an hour in our town 1/2 the size of Evansdale) Anyone watching us for more than one day would know this! We flew on our bikes just like the girls did in the video surveillance, almost like we were racing to get everything quickly accomplished. JMO :moo:

 

[superbee]

The Angels need to step up now for Lizzie and Lyric...everyone else seems busy with either court, rehab, jail, tv interviews, or the concert.

Yes. Calling All Angels. Just as when the hunters found the girls just before snow time, help is needed now.

 

[pearl]

I see that there are 6 members and 8 guests viewing this thread right now. I wonder if the perp(s) lurk as guests on WS.

 

[georger]

Well I'm going back to seven bridges next week, and I will make sure I can down load pictures before I leave this time.

do me a favor. When you are there take a moment of silence, for all of us here. That's my request.

 

[otto]

I don't know if I can draw a conclusion, but I can speculate about it some.

It's rare for a perp to abduct, and then murder, one girl. It's even rarer for a perp to abduct two girls at once, and then murder them.

So when two girls are abducted together and murdered, I have to wonder about the type of perp who would commit such an extremely rare crime.

For instance, when a perp abducts a child, the motive is usually sexual assault. Is sexual assault still the usual motive when two children are abducted, or do other factors come into play in a two-child abduction versus a one-child abduction?

I haven't read all of the cases involving two girls being abducted at the same time, then murdered, but I know in one of the cases the perp was the boyfriend of one of the girls. So I'm curious as to whether the selection of two victims says anything about the perp in our case. Is it likelier that he was known to the girls as opposed to being a stranger?

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well, sorry.

It seems that in a couple of the double murder/abduction cases posted here today, when two children were abducted and murdered, there was some connection between the abductor and one of the victims (like the boyfriend of the teacher in the UK) ... but, that's also true when one child is abducted. Still, it's an interesting theory. Maybe it's true that when two children are abducted at the same time, it's more likely that the abductor has specifically selected one of the children and that the targeted child is easier to abduct with another child. For example, if Elizabeth was targeted (this happened in her neighborhood), it may have been easier to lure her to the SE tip of the lake when she was with Lyric than if she was alone. Elizabeth may have been braver with Lyric, or Lyric may have had the "bull in a china shop" approach (that her paternal grandmother described).

 

[otto]

Just a general question...hopefully someone knows the answer to:

What evidence is required to obtain an arrest warrant for a murder? What ducks have to be in a row before one will be issued?

I'm just trying to determine what would be missing (or needed for that manner) that's preventing an arrest warrant from being issued.

Do you need:

Cause of death?
DNA evidence?
Weapon used to commit the murder (if any weapon was used)?
Motive?
Evidence of the perp being at the location of at least one, if not all crime scenes?
Determine and prove where the actual murder took place (if it wasn't the same location as the discovery site)?

How many of these (plus any others, if required) have to be met before someone would be charged with a murder?

Please add any other evidence that would be required before you feel an arrest warrant would be issued to charge someone with murder.

Thanks guys!:seeya:

I think the main factor is the likelihood of a conviction. Whether that is a result of eye witness testimony, or DNA evidence, it doesn't matter. If there's a good chance that there will be a conviction, a prosecutor is likely to take the case to trial.

 

[georger]

On the contrary, the FBI devote entire departments to behavioural analysis of perps like this.

We cannot draw any firm conclusions here on WS, simply because we don't know enough...but based on what we do know, a few valuable insights and educated guesses have been shared.

Even the best profiler in the world cannot get it spot on 100% of the time, but if you read in depth to a solved murder case of any kind, you will probably find someone from LE say "we believed we were looking for a person who was **** because of what they did/left at the scene".

Experienced homicide detectives do not need the services of the FBI because their instincts are so finely honed they can identify and pursue a suspect, most of the time.

We only read the statistical rarities on WS, the ones where there is no obvious suspect (or too many), or proof, or evidence, or even a body or a crime scene sometimes.

The girls were found. The dump site and/or crime scene will reveal a lot, as will the site of the bikes, how they were staged, IF they were staged.

How a perp managed to magic away two girls on bikes in the middle of town in the middle of the day in the middle of summer, without being seen by ANYONE is most definitely relevant when looking for a suspect :moo:

Lesson No.1 : keep tabs on your children!

 

[georger]

Not necessarily otto, but in this case, I do think it is possible the perp could have been known and trusted by the girls OR not known to them, but trusted by them, as someone they knew through seeing them in the community, perhaps someone a child would look up to.

I should have been more clear .... regarding the dog(s) scenario, I don't think this was a person or persons known to the girls and agree with you that one child or two children together could easily be lured by a perp with a puppy.

imo

In a previous post I made, imo, the perp with dog(s) scenario lives very close to the lake, walks their dogs at the park, passed the girls on the lane, took their dogs home, came back to Maiden Lane with their vehicle and then lured the girls to the vehicle, i.e. something pertaining to the dogs. Just imo and all speculation.

Another wild card: one of the girls collided (put a dent in) somebody's
vehicle while biking. Vehicle owner made them get in his vehicle.

Anyone in town at that time with an unexplained big dent in his vehicle door he got repaired later?

 

[otto]

Another wild card: one of the girls collided (put a dent in) somebody's
vehicle while biking. Vehicle owner made them get in his vehicle.

Anyone in town at that time with an unexplained big dent in his vehicle door he got repaired later?

I would think that if the perp went to the trouble of loading two children and two bikes into his vehicle, he would have dumped the bikes at 7 Bridges County Park ... no reason to take a chance of being seen with two children's bikes on the day that two children are abducted.

 

[georger]

I would think that if the perp went to the trouble of loading two children and two bikes into his vehicle, he would have dumped the bikes at 7 Bridges County Park ... no reason to take a chance of being seen with two children's bikes on the day that two children are abducted.

We may be over-estimating and under-estimating what 'crazy' people will do,
on a hot day during July. Especially if there already is a grudge.

from former post: "or Lyric may have had the "bull in a china shop" approach
(that her paternal grandmother described)."

I speak with some experience. I was run off the road on my bike at age eight by
some lady who opposed a school bond election where my relative was the
Superintendent. The lady had every intention of damaging me for who I was! Our
Chief of Police had that lady in jail - as fast as he could find her!
The community erupted. The lady stood in front of a Judge and said she would
do it again if it kept her and her husbands taxes from going up! It was unreal.
I became a skinned up eight year old "of the world" very fast! (laughing today about
it but I wasn't laughing at the time!!!)

If there is nothing compelling about a sexual connection, or revenge involving Dan,
then it almost has to be something else that happened ...

 

[Bootsctr]

I find this discouraging:

"This was a very unique situation with those two girls, and hopefully one that will come to resolution here shortly -- and I don't know that (it) will, but we are certainly hopeful," said Smock.

http://www.kwwl.com/story/21941711/...f-says-stranger-danger-conversation-important

BBM

I find it scary!

 

[Bootsctr]

How come when I go to Cranky Crankerson's page, there is information there that Lyric was buried at the end of December? http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/... Cook-Morrissey -IA-/122912Lyric-service.jpg

 

[Dr. Know?]

Iirc, it was stated that Lyric would be cremated at the end of Dec 2012 per MSM but I also remember HC saying that possibly in Feb. they would bury Elizabeth. I don't think the bodies were turned over due to the investigtion until recently from what I've read here and elsewhere. Sounds like it to me. It's been recently at the least but not sure how long ago. jmo

RIP Lyric, you are an angel to many. Gone too soon.

No child deserves what both E & L got. No child.

I hope BH County, Evansdale & FBI never forget who they are following & pursue arresting whoever (or plural) murdered them on that ordinary summer day in Iowa. Sucks.

RIP girls. RIP.