IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #35

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http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_4876f5ce-c875-11e2-a1ed-001a4bcf887a.html

May 30, 2013 Police look for link between Dayton kidnapping and cousins' case

EVANSDALE, Iowa --- Evansdale's police chief hopes to know next week whether deceased sex offender Michael Klunder is linked to the slaying of two cousins who vanished last year while riding bikes.

Chief Kent Smock said investigators are retracing Klunder's steps in July, when 10-year-old Lyric Cook-Morrissey and 8-year-old Elizabeth Collins were abducted. Their bodies were found in December in a wildlife area in rural Bremer County.

Klunder's name didn't come up during the investigation into the girls' disappearance and deaths.

But Klunder caught investagators' attention when he abducted a 12-year-old girl and 15-year-old Kathlynn Shepard in Dayton May 20 at a bus stop
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http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/dead-iowa-kidnapping-suspect-p

LAW OFFICER: Massive Search Underway for Abducted Teen in Iowa

One reason investigators are interested: It's extremely rare to abduct multiple children at once, and police say Michael J. Klunder has done that at least twice.

Police Chief Kent Smock of Evansdale — where cousins Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins vanished while riding their bikes last July — said stranger abductions involving more than one child being taken at the same time are "very, very rare." He said the similarities between the two Iowa cases have captured the attention of local, state and federal agents looking for the cousins' killer.

"They're looking into it and keeping us updated," Tammy Brousseau, the cousins' aunt, said Thursday. "I really hope that it's him. My fear all along was that this person was out there and could harm another child. Now we have another missing little girl, and I really do hope that it's him."
 
hambirg said:
Otto- I am one of the ones that thinks Klunder is the likely perp here for just the reasons you stated. I find it difficult to get past those odds. I also believe that there are likely other crimes committed by Klunder that haven't been linked to him.

I agree mostly with what you posted, but I think 7 Bridges was just a dump site. I think we are missing the actual scene of the crime. As Klunder evolved, there became three sites, actually four. . .the abduction site, the place of the actual crime, and a dump site. The fourth in the KS case, is that he dumped their backpacks at a fourth site. Klunder was a big guy, 6'4" I think I read. Is that right? He also worked with hogs. I think he could have carried the girls in to where they were found.

IMHO, that fits here. Much of what we learned from his final crime are things we discussed here in this case before that even happened. . .the fact that the girls may have been lured to the lake, that a weapon may have been used, that the girls may have been zip tied, and whether or not the bikes were staged.

What else we know about Klunder is that he was not patient. His crimes happened soon after the abduction. KS was already killed by the time he was driving down the road looking for D and she was still in the woods. I think it's likely both Lyric and Lizzie were already gone and at 7 Bridges by the time their bikes were found. :( IMHO they need to search every hog facility between Evansdale and 7 Bridges. Even if they do, I'm not sure how they would identify it as a crime scene. Aren't hogs actually killed in some of these places? How would you be able to tell if it was just normal pig blood or a crime scene? Ugh!

Anyway, all MOO!
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:goodpost: Great points BBM! While Klunder is not "my" POI, he sure does insert himself into this abduction of L&L! On the day he abducted K&D; He accomplished a lot in 4 hours! And can you imagine him as he attempted to hunt down "D" - she definitely had a guardian angel that day (... or was it two!) - poor thing had to be so terrorized; OMG.

If it proves to be MJK, we can be at peace knowing another abduction/death is less likely to happen again. But then again, we are reminded that evil surrounds us all through the fate of Evelyn Miller.
 
B4igo2it said:
:goodpost: Great points BBM! While Klunder is not "my" POI, he sure does insert himself into this abduction of L&L! On the day he abducted K&D; He accomplished a lot in 4 hours! And can you imagine him as he attempted to hunt down "D" - she definitely had a guardian angel that day (... or was it two!) - poor thing had to be so terrorized; OMG.

If it proves to be MJK, we can be at peace knowing another abduction/death is less likely to happen again. But then again, we are reminded that evil surrounds us all through the fate of Evelyn Miller.
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B4igo2it, can you imagine if DH had not been protected by her guardian angels that tragic day? The IA community would have four innocent children's lives lost and an unknown child serial killer hunting his next pair of victims, imo...
 
This is just my own observation, and I might well be way off base -- but it had seemed like LE had a good idea who they thought had committed the murders, and were just putting the finishing touches on the case when Klunder happened. So everything had to be put on hold while they eliminated Klunder, because until they do that, they aren't going to be able to get a conviction of anybody else because the defense will be able to cast a whole lot of reasonable doubt by blaming Klunder.

And apparently it hasn't been as easy to rule him out as it appeared at first. Maybe he really has cast doubt over the whole case.
 
carbuff said:
This is just my own observation, and I might well be way off base -- but it had seemed like LE had a good idea who they thought had committed the murders, and were just putting the finishing touches on the case when Klunder happened. So everything had to be put on hold while they eliminated Klunder, because until they do that, they aren't going to be able to get a conviction of anybody else because the defense will be able to cast a whole lot of reasonable doubt by blaming Klunder.

And apparently it hasn't been as easy to rule him out as it appeared at first. Maybe he really has cast doubt over the whole case.
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Bingo, I think you pinned the tail on the donkey!
 
carbuff said:
This is just my own observation, and I might well be way off base -- but it had seemed like LE had a good idea who they thought had committed the murders, and were just putting the finishing touches on the case when Klunder happened. So everything had to be put on hold while they eliminated Klunder, because until they do that, they aren't going to be able to get a conviction of anybody else because the defense will be able to cast a whole lot of reasonable doubt by blaming Klunder.

And apparently it hasn't been as easy to rule him out as it appeared at first. Maybe he really has cast doubt over the whole case.
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You bring up a very valid point. If this wasn't Klunder they have to be able to rule him out, 100%, no doubt, prove it. I've admitted I have a difficult time moving past Klunder. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to convince a jury to.
 
IMO if LE has everything they SHOULD have to prove who did it, Klunder won't even be a factor in proving their case (if they charge someone else).

I agree though, the defense will theoretically try to enter ANY other possible perp into the case to rule out the probability of the defendant being the perp. That's their job.
What LE has to do, is prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did indeed abduct and kill L&L.

I think LE may have a ton of we know who did it, aka circumstantial evidence...it's PROVING this person did it in the court of law. And like I had posted before, due to the onslaught of TV shows and networks such as ID showing case after case slam dunks, juries are more and more leaning towards requiring DNA or some sort of physical evidence before they will convict. That, on top of all the circumstantial evidence that makes it all fall into place.

From what we've seen, if LE fails to provide solid DNA evidence or some sort of confession from the perp it can be extremely difficult to get a jury to convict based on circumstances alone. That could very well be what's taking so long.
 
carbuff said:
This is just my own observation, and I might well be way off base -- but it had seemed like LE had a good idea who they thought had committed the murders, and were just putting the finishing touches on the case when Klunder happened. So everything had to be put on hold while they eliminated Klunder, because until they do that, they aren't going to be able to get a conviction of anybody else because the defense will be able to cast a whole lot of reasonable doubt by blaming Klunder.

And apparently it hasn't been as easy to rule him out as it appeared at first. Maybe he really has cast doubt over the whole case.
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I don't think you are off base, since I have the same opinion!

I am surprised Klunder hasn't been officially ruled out. Like you said, maybe LE was building a case against someone when Klunder's appearance on the radar caused them to put everything on hold. :dunno:

I can certainly understand those who feel Klunder was involved with our two girls. If I felt the girls were taken at random for sexual purposes, I would definitely suspect Klunder. JMO
 
Marilynilpa said:
I don't think you are off base, since I have the same opinion!

I am surprised Klunder hasn't been officially ruled out. Like you said, maybe LE was building a case against someone when Klunder's appearance on the radar caused them to put everything on hold. :dunno:

I can certainly understand those who feel Klunder was involved with our two girls. If I felt the girls were taken at random for sexual purposes, I would definitely suspect Klunder. JMO
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I think it's likely that many jurors would be more willing to believe a random predator than they would the other theory. Most people have difficulty picturing any other reason for murdering a child.
 
I was shocked as anyone when LE said he wasn't even on their "radar".

Then I thought about it some more.

LE aren't stupid and it seems a very odd thing to say publicly if you think about it.

Admitting that their search NEVER INCLUDED known Iowa offenders is a ticket to public shock and outrage. Why admit it at all, especially to a reporter?

Because this was never your regular abduction from the get go.

Far flung offenders were never even LOOKED at.

Requests for information were aimed specifically at locals.

The 100 house raid in Evansdale - again, local focus.

I suggest that LE are working the evidence, and it hasn't taken them anywhere but Evansdale and Waterloo and 7 bridges.
 
SapphireSteel said:
I was shocked as anyone when LE said he wasn't even on their "radar".

Then I thought about it some more.

LE aren't stupid and it seems a very odd thing to say publicly if you think about it.

Admitting that their search NEVER INCLUDED known Iowa offenders is a ticket to public shock and outrage. Why admit it at all, especially to a reporter?

Because this was never your regular abduction from the get go.

Far flung offenders were never even LOOKED at.

Requests for information were aimed specifically at locals.

The 100 house raid in Evansdale - again, local focus.

I suggest that LE are working the evidence, and it hasn't taken them anywhere but Evansdale and Waterloo and 7 bridges.
Click to expand...

I thought the exact same thing. It's a welcome distraction for the public and possibly the perp. However, my question is this:

If LE has all other evidence leading in another direction (and that evidence is solid) why on earth are they jacking around sending evidence from Klunder and L&L for testing? Do you think that statement is just a big fib by LE to keep the focus off the real perp while the investigation continues?
Or do you think that's just a technicality so they can 100% rule him out via DNA, even though they already "know" he's not their guy?
Why would they waste time and money doing testing if everything else is falling into place?

I am not at all impressed by the dragging out of the Klunder connection as a distraction if they know he's not their perp.
Klunder left behind a family. A wife, parents, etc. who all (regardless of what he did) are left reeling, wondering if this monster killed more than they know. I really wish they would make a statement one way or another on him. NOT because it can either name or eliminate a POI for L&L, but also for some closure for Klunder's survivors. I know if it were me, it would be a living hell wondering whether or not he was connected to L&L's case. :(
 
Watched a couple of Cold Justice episodes today. Would love to see a whiteboard like Kelly and Yolanda use for analyzing L & E's case.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk
 
Sadly, if it's another perp they are focused on and they don't rule Klunder out completley some Defense attorney could put doubt in a jury's mind & mention Klunder every chance they get. At least one or two of them would have doubt. If they don't announce where he was on July 13th, 2012 & not near the girls, I'll still have doubt too along with the LE. jmo
 
threecrazykids said:
I thought the exact same thing. It's a welcome distraction for the public and possibly the perp. However, my question is this:

If LE has all other evidence leading in another direction (and that evidence is solid) why on earth are they jacking around sending evidence from Klunder and L&L for testing? Do you think that statement is just a big fib by LE to keep the focus off the real perp while the investigation continues?
Or do you think that's just a technicality so they can 100% rule him out via DNA, even though they already "know" he's not their guy?
Why would they waste time and money doing testing if everything else is falling into place?

I am not at all impressed by the dragging out of the Klunder connection as a distraction if they know he's not their perp.
Klunder left behind a family. A wife, parents, etc. who all (regardless of what he did) are left reeling, wondering if this monster killed more than they know. I really wish they would make a statement one way or another on him. NOT because it can either name or eliminate a POI jfor L&L, but also for some closure for Klunder's survivors. I know if it were me, it would be a living hell wondering whether or not he was connected to L&L's case. :(
Click to expand...

They may not be spending a cent, just waiting until the Klunder investigation underway by other LE is finalised.

It doesn't really matter what we think of the tactics - the only person LEcares about is the perp.

It may suit LE to have the perp get cocky and boastful - like BTK did when LE deliberately provoked him by publicly blaming someone else for his crimes.

He sat down and wrote a letter and in so doing eventually revealed himself.
 
But the truth is, we just don't know. LE may very well have thought they knew who the perp was and were building a court case. Then Klunder came along and now they had to question whether they had it right or not. I really don't know. But it's possible they had it wrong. It wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened.

I don't care one way or the other. I would rather know the truth in this case than be "right." I just can't shake Klunder. I thought from the get go this was a sexually motivated abduction, but I thoroughly admit I may be wrong. I think that my initial gut reaction probably influences my opinion.

ARRRRRGGGG! Just make a friggin arrest already! I fear that if there were mistakes, that the political powers that be, may not want to admit that. It would mean that KS would still be alive. If Klunder did this, and they flubbed it. . .holy hell! KS is now dead and D will never be the same, kwim?
 
I agree and feel your frustration Hambirg. Klunder fits in that square hole like a square peg should. Doesn't appear they can put him there yet though from what we know.

For some reason, Klunder might have had a shady alibi but a strong one from a family member, a RSO friend, a father in law, fellow employee? I think it could be tying that white boxy SUV to Klunder & that vehicle could be in China by now as cold rolled steel? If it's not recoverable a defense attorney can talk to the choir all day about Klunder, that fact won't fly. Locating that vehicle is for the LE. Sooner or later they would have to give up.

Oy vey. I'll just keep an open mind on who did it for now. Patience is a virtue, ya? It's hard for everyone to wait this long without expressing their frustration. So, $@%^(&(&)^ that!
 
I was kind of the same way about Klunder. While I always thought a sexual predator or thrill killer was a possibility, I thought other explanations were far more likely. When I heard about the double kidnapping, I felt physically ill that it might have been someone who could have been stopped.

I like your "square peg in a square hole" comment, Dr. Know. That's exactly what it seemed like. But that doesn't mean he's the right square peg.

Nothing to do but wait.
 
In some ways I will be relieved if it was Klunder, only b/c he's dead now and can't hurt anyone else.

But if it's not him, then the lack of urgency and concern for other children only can lead me to believe that it's a family member (hopefully that is okay to say w/o specifying for TOS) since none of them have been cleared and presumably LE has no reason to believe other children are in danger.

JMO, MOO, IMO
 
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