IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #35

[nikb]

Here is a link to the post where in the video Heather and Drew stated they identified the shoes. Post #902

Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, and Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #23 - Page 37 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

The video is no longer active since it's so old, but that's where there is discussions on the threads about the video and the mention of identifying the flip flops.

I believe that was the only interview where Heather mentions it. It was a one on one interview with Ron Steele...not a press release of sorts.

Hope that helps clarify.

Thanks for finding this! I've been trying so hard to track it down and couldn't... makes sense it's no longer active due to being so old. I'll keep looking to see if I can find it online somewhere. Great memory on the interviews.

 

[Squeeze]

The hour-long interview is no longer available? Seriously? When I click on the link, it takes me to the KWWL mobile site on my phone. The Courier used to have a section dedicated to the girls on their website. Not sure if that's still there. I'll look later on my laptop. And then I'll inquire about getting it activated again.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

 

[threecrazykids]

The hour-long interview is no longer available? Seriously? When I click on the link, it takes me to the KWWL mobile site on my phone. The Courier used to have a section dedicated to the girls on their website. Not sure if that's still there. I'll look later on my laptop. And then I'll inquire about getting it activated again.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

I thought the same thing. The link goes to the website, but the video doesn't appear to load. I am pretty sure it was that interview with Ron Steele, but I could be mistaken. I think it's the only interview Heather mentions the shoes. She was describing how they knew it was the girls when the bodies were found - I believe LE showed them the shoes after they were all called together after the discovery.

Thank you for following up on possibly getting it reactivated for us. :seeya:

 

[alliemay]

Thanks for finding the link TCK, so the shoes they found listed on the map near Myers Lake mean nothing. That's what I was trying to figure out.

 

[nikb]

Thanks for finding the link TCK, so the shoes they found listed on the map near Myers Lake mean nothing. That's what I was trying to figure out.

IIRC I think you're right. The shoes at the lake turned out to be basically nothing, probably left behind by some kid who was running around in the playground.

Separate note - Squeeze, I hope they'll reactivate that video. Great idea and thanks for checking on it!

 

[24Roses]

:xmastree::xmastree:Merry Christmas in Heaven girls. You are missed, sweet angels.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SS, it has been my experience that abduction investigations, where there is silence by investigators frequently go unsolved, imo.

Not wishing to offend...but how many abduction investigations have you been privy to?

"Unsolved"= no arrest, it doesn't mean "no idea".

We all know OJ did it, for example. And Casey.

A rush to trial means they walked free.

 

[Foxfire]

Not wishing to offend...but how many abduction investigations have you been privy to?

"Unsolved"= no arrest, it doesn't mean "no idea".

We all know OJ did it, for example. And Casey.

A rush to trial means they walked free.

SapphireSteel, I've been sleuthing, backtracking, and researching missing/persons investigations for six years now. But the answer to your question is, "one is way too many"...

SS, and no, we all don't know that OJ did it..

 

[otto]

I've been sleuthing, backtracking, and researching missing/persons investigations for six years now. But the answer to your question is, "one is way too many"...

<respectfully snipped>

I was just thinking that. Of all the cases I've reviewed (and it's been longer than my years here) two children missing at one time is very rare, and almost unheard of on this forum. For two pair of young girls to vanish in one state on July 13, 2012 and May 21, 2013, seems awfully coincidental. It's far more likely that they same person is responsible. That said, why isn't there anything, like a cell phone record, vehicle sighting, or gas purchase, that put's Klunder in or near Evansdale? Was he careful? He wasn't that bright, so a mistake is likely, but there doesn't seem to be a mistake. Are police exploring the possibility that more than one person was involved?

If he is responsible for the disappearance of Lyric and Elizabeth, did he offer them jobs too and they parked their bikes for a short time to earn some money? Did he also offer to drive them home so they could ask permission? Why wouldn't he take them to a hog farm?

Are police being extremely thorough, taking whatever time they need, to demonstrate that Klunder is responsible, if he is, because anything less than a strong argument would leave people feeling that police threw their arms in the air and gave up rather than do their jobs and find the murderer? That is, if Klunder is guilty and police simply make that announcement, how many will want a complete explanation, and then perhaps still accuse police of failing to do their jobs?

I think we can be certain that this was a sexual offense. I highly doubt that the family would suddenly take an interest in sex offenders after the bodies were found for something to do.

For those that believe Klunder to be responsible, it is also believed that the children were murdered at the park the day they were abducted, same as what was happening with the other two abducted children?

 

[otto]

I'd like to speculate a bit ...

Referencing the van der Sloot case: Joran v.d.Sloot murdered Natalie Holloway and no one could figure out how he did it. He did the same thing to Stephanie Florez exactly 5 years later, but this time he couldn't get rid of the body. Instead, he thought he could exploit international law and be extradited home. He was wrong. Still, from that, in my opinion, we learned how Natalie died. That is, his M.O. most likely did not change. If Klunder is responsible for both pair of abductions, then he most likely did the same thing with each pair: promise a job, take them to an isolated location, zip tie them, separate them, murder them.

If we assume that Klunder committed two abductions of a pair of young/pre-teen girls in Iowa, roughly 10 months apart from each other, then I think we can figure out what happened to Lyric and Elizabeth. Keep in mind that this is speculation. They were cycling to the lake, along Lake Avenue, and crossed paths with Klunder. Police asked for tips of the children in or near the parking lot of Meyers Lake, along Lake Avenue and on Arbutus near the Meyers Lake Nature Trail. Perhaps Klunder offered them jobs ... like mowing lawns or watering trees, he suggested that they park their bikes and he offered to make sure that they get permission. He would gain trust by suggesting that they get permission. Perhaps Klunder suggested putting the bikes down the path for safe keeping, probably walking straight in and out of the bike path to a vehicle on the road near the path.

Once inside the vehicle, the children might have been zip tied, or it might have happened after they drove for a while, in Lyric and Elizabeth's case, towards Seven Bridges County Park. They would have walked to the area where their bodies were found, and then been separated. According to news reports, they were found 50 feet apart. Maps gave the impression of being 20 feet apart. Lyric, the eldest, would have been murdered first.

Speculation, but if Klunder is responsible, that's probably what happened.

It sounded like the "gun" he used was for hogs. At the time the children were found, I read about a tool used to euthanize animals, where it is aimed at the top of the head and is supposed to cause instant death. Somehow, I had the impression that this is the type of weapon he had. I don't remember if I assumed this or read it. If that was used on the Evansdale children, I would expect some evidence of that on their skulls. I wonder if they both died of a severe blow to the head with one of the agricultural euthanasia tools.

 

[otto]

Thinking back to what Heather said about Elizabeth, they had ice cream in the evening. Didn't Elizabeth also sometimes go for bike rides in the evenings, and didn't she also cycle to a Lake Avenue and Arbutus home where she had a friend (the friend's grandmother came forward at some point)? It seems quite possible that Elizabeth could have suggested to Lyric that they cycle to the lake that day at noon. She certainly knew the route cycling to her friends house (the lake) better than Lyric. Heather said that Elizabeth always phoned home when she arrived at a friend's home, so we know that Elizabeth had some independence on her bike trips.

Klunder could have come across them at an intersection and offered them a job, or spoken with them at the Meyer's Lake Parking Lot turnoff. He could even have thrown their bikes in the back of his truck and ditched them at the sewage pump gate while they were zip tied in his vehicle. Maybe the vehicle spotted on Arbutus in two different locations was zip tie stop and ditching the bikes.

This map shows the streets, parking lot and trails where there is evidence/information.




A possible route with the times given by police (the 12:30-1PM time corresponds to police asking for witnesses at the time, at that location). The bikes were seen by a jogger at 2PM and were located by Fire Rescue at 3:58.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Otto, while I'm not convinced Klunder murdered Elizabeth & Lyric, if he did, I think your speculation is probably accurate.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel, I've been sleuthing, backtracking, and researching missing/persons investigations for six years now. But the answer to your question is, "one is way too many"...

SS, and no, we all don't know that OJ did it..

Then you should know that these things take time.

I watched a show just yesterday where the perp was already imprisoned for murders 1-9, but LE wanted him to reveal what he did to victim 10.

They approached an inmate in another institution and asked if he would help.

They transferred the plant and instructed him to wait SIX MONTHS before striking up conversation.

The plan worked. The murderer started boasting but it took a further few months before conversation turned to the missing girl.

So that's a KNOWN SK, already incarcerated, already guilty for Vic's one through 9, and STILL not charged even though everyone knew he did it.

No body=no charges even when its 99% certain he was the perp.

 

[Squeeze]

Otto, I agree with you 1000% about Klunder. And since he's dead, there is no hurry to put away a kidnapper/killer if he's our guy. I also agree about the possible route the girls may have taken. Being from the area, that would be the route I'd guess, since it's side streets with less traffic and the most direct route.

 

[Bootsctr]

Merry Day-after-Christmas everyone! Thinking about Lyric and Elizabeth and wishing they were still alive to enjoy another Christmas.

At one time, I thought Klunder was a strong possible suspect. I do believe if he did not kill Elizabeth and Lyric, there are other murders he committed that have not been connected to him.

I do not believe there is much physical evidence collected from the girls' remains (maybe fibers and hairs) from the site the girls' were found, nor from the abduction site. IF any fingerprints were collected (seems those would have been put in the system right away), we know that there was a screw-up in the fingerprint department higher up in the system.

Perhaps it is taking so long to link Klunder, as LE and FBI do not want any lab worker to get the killer so badly they develop "tunnel vision" as in the abductions and murders of Sofia Silva, Kati and Kristin Lisk in Spotsylvania, Virginia. Just watched this "On The Case with Paula Zahn." LE ended up putting the wrong guy behind bars because of a lab worker's tunnel vision. It took them 5 years to get the real killer, when a 15 y/o in June of 2002 was kidnapped from a front yard watering flowers in Columbia, South Carolina by Richard Marc Evonitz. He handcuffed the 15 y/o after taking her back to his apartment in a plastic container and raping her repeatedly over 18 hours. She managed to escape. Before LE could make it back to his apartment he ran. Two days later in Sarasota, Florida as police were closing in on him, he too committed suicide. He left a lot of evidence regarding Silva and the Lisk sisters murders. Newspaper clippings of the Silva and Lisk sisters abductions and murders were found in a lock box; fingerprints were recovered from the trunk of one of Evonitz's cars even after 5 years and finally they found fibers from a pair of fuzzy handcuffs and a pink rug found in the bottom of a box in Evonitz's linen closet.

In mid-August, police and the FBI announced that the Silva and Lisk murders had been solved. They were able to tell the families of the Spotsylvania victims that they now knew for sure that Evonitz was the killer. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=125152&singlePage=true

So it took 5 years to get the guy, but only 3 months to link him to the Silva and Lisk murders. This case makes me think Klunder is not the one who took Elizabeth and Lyric's lives. I still have hope there was DNA found. Perhaps a tarp or rug used to wrap or cover the bodies that has the perp's DNA or even something like a pillow as he silenced one child as he killed her so the other would not hear. . . I just cannot give up hope they will find the person or persons who did this to Lyric and Elizabeth.

 

[CHERIE.T]

SapphireSteel, I've been sleuthing, backtracking, and researching missing/persons investigations for six years now. But the answer to your question is, "one is way too many"...

SS, and no, we all don't know that OJ did it..

Thanks wasn't enough.

 

[hambirg]

Otto- I am one of the ones that thinks Klunder is the likely perp here for just the reasons you stated. I find it difficult to get past those odds. I also believe that there are likely other crimes committed by Klunder that haven't been linked to him.

I agree mostly with what you posted, but I think 7 Bridges was just a dump site. I think we are missing the actual scene of the crime. As Klunder evolved, there became three sites, actually four. . .the abduction site, the place of the actual crime, and a dump site. The fourth in the KS case, is that he dumped their backpacks at a fourth site. Klunder was a big guy, 6'4" I think I read. Is that right? He also worked with hogs. I think he could have carried the girls in to where they were found.

IMHO, that fits here. Much of what we learned from his final crime are things we discussed here in this case before that even happened. . .the fact that the girls may have been lured to the lake, that a weapon may have been used, that the girls may have been zip tied, and whether or not the bikes were staged.

What else we know about Klunder is that he was not patient. His crimes happened soon after the abduction. KS was already killed by the time he was driving down the road looking for D and she was still in the woods. I think it's likely both Lyric and Lizzie were already gone and at 7 Bridges by the time their bikes were found. IMHO they need to search every hog facility between Evansdale and 7 Bridges. Even if they do, I'm not sure how they would identify it as a crime scene. Aren't hogs actually killed in some of these places? How would you be able to tell if it was just normal pig blood or a crime scene? Ugh!

Anyway, all MOO!

 

[otto]

Otto- I am one of the ones that thinks Klunder is the likely perp here for just the reasons you stated. I find it difficult to get past those odds. I also believe that there are likely other crimes committed by Klunder that haven't been linked to him.

I agree mostly with what you posted, but I think 7 Bridges was just a dump site. I think we are missing the actual scene of the crime. As Klunder evolved, there became three sites, actually four. . .the abduction site, the place of the actual crime, and a dump site. The fourth in the KS case, is that he dumped their backpacks at a fourth site. Klunder was a big guy, 6'4" I think I read. Is that right? He also worked with hogs. I think he could have carried the girls in to where they were found.

IMHO, that fits here. Much of what we learned from his final crime are things we discussed here in this case before that even happened. . .the fact that the girls may have been lured to the lake, that a weapon may have been used, that the girls may have been zip tied, and whether or not the bikes were staged.

What else we know about Klunder is that he was not patient. His crimes happened soon after the abduction. KS was already killed by the time he was driving down the road looking for D and she was still in the woods. I think it's likely both Lyric and Lizzie were already gone and at 7 Bridges by the time their bikes were found. IMHO they need to search every hog facility between Evansdale and 7 Bridges. Even if they do, I'm not sure how they would identify it as a crime scene. Aren't hogs actually killed in some of these places? How would you be able to tell if it was just normal pig blood or a crime scene? Ugh!

Anyway, all MOO!

It's possible that he left one child in his vehicle while he assaulted and murdered the first at the location where the body was found, then he returned for the second child, assaulted her 50 feet from the first and murdered her too.

If he used a ruse, like work, to gain some trust and cooperation, he could have convinced them to leave their bikes where they were found.

The strange thing is that the cyclist was in the area at about the same time, and he reported seeing two bikes at about the same location where they were eventually found. This report has never fit properly with the timeline, the report of a vehicle and all the other information that we have. It continues to bother me today that this one piece of information is there, but it doesn't fit ... which results in me wondering why that one piece doesn't fit.

 

[Just Pat 22]

I went back in the numbers trying to find the picture they had of the one boot like shoe it was purpule kind ok glozzy seemed like the same design as a old granny boot's our GR Gr grandma wore .The outher was a sandal kind . .Does anyone else rememer the boot's ? . I don't know for sure but I think it was found at 7 Bridges.. I will keep looking I am on dial up so it takes a while . God look after our Little sweet Girls Lyric And Elizabeth so very sad .Don't ever give up on us web Sleuther's were going to solve this ...

 

[iamnotagolem]

It's possible that he left one child in his vehicle while he assaulted and murdered the first at the location where the body was found, then he returned for the second child, assaulted her 50 feet from the first and murdered her too.

If he used a ruse, like work, to gain some trust and cooperation, he could have convinced them to leave their bikes where they were found.

The strange thing is that the cyclist was in the area at about the same time, and he reported seeing two bikes at about the same location where they were eventually found. This report has never fit properly with the timeline, the report of a vehicle and all the other information that we have. It continues to bother me today that this one piece of information is there, but it doesn't fit ... which results in me wondering why that one piece doesn't fit.

If it was Klunder, maybe he saw the girls on their way home from the lake. Maybe he'd watched them ride their bikes there then waited until they were leaving. Once he had them in the truck, he could have taken the bikes back and put them where they were found by the volunteer fire fighter.