Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

[SeriouslySearching]

Meyer's Lake had been thoroughly dragged, had cadaver dogs go over it and had one type of sonar go over it. Draining the entire lake wasn't necessary in order to know the girls weren't there. Plus there's the fact that Meyer's Lake is not a particularly deep lake, it was summer and in the middle of a heat spell, so had there been decomposing humans in there, the cadaver dogs would definitely have gotten a hit.

At the time, opinion on WS was that there was no way the girls were in there, so why were they wasting so much time and energy on fully draining it? Several people (myself included) pointed out that it wasn't much of a drain on resources, since all they had to do was station a deputy there 24/7 to keep people out of the water and turn on the pumps. There were a lot of people posting that it was a waste of time and resources, etc.

{shrug} Maybe you had to be there at the time.

I assure you that I followed this case quite closely so I was "there at the time" regardless if I posted here or not. I still say there was every reason to drain the small lake and it had nothing to do with trying to keep the media at bay so they could do other things. While it is possible the cadaver dogs could have sniffed out bodies in the water...it is probable they would have missed other evidence such as a weapon that could have been used on the girls. Dragging the lake would not have found other evidence either. They drained the lake to be certain of what was left in the water since they knew the perp was there regardless if they thought the girls were in the water or not. Due diligence. Not a waste of time nor resources.

 

[TedMac]

I assure you that I followed this case quite closely so I was "there at the time" regardless if I posted here or not. I still say there was every reason to drain the small lake and it had nothing to do with trying to keep the media at bay so they could do other things. While it is possible the cadaver dogs could have sniffed out bodies in the water...it is probable they would have missed other evidence such as a weapon that could have been used on the girls. Dragging the lake would not have found other evidence either. They drained the lake to be certain of what was left in the water since they knew the perp was there regardless if they thought the girls were in the water or not. Due diligence. Not a waste of time nor resources.

I agree it was not a waste of time or resources to drain the lake. The girls bikes were found right beside it. The girls skeletons were not found until 5 months later. While LE may have thought the bodies were not under water, what would they have told the parents, the public and the press if they had 2 missing children for 5 months and not bother to empty the lake where their bikes were found? How would they have explained that? They would have been thoroughly ridiculed by everyone for not doing so. Can you imagine the outcry-"We have two missing girls and their bikes were found beside the lake and LE isn't even looking in the lake for them." Even if LE suspected the girls were not in there, they would still have to drain the lake if for no other reason, to eliminate that possibility.

And as SS mentioned, other evidence could have been tossed in there.

 

[threecrazykids]

Just to clarify - I wasn't suggesting that draining the lake was a waste of resources at all. I was just stating that it likely made it easier on LE to have the majority of the media camped out at the lake doing their updates and interviews there and not infiltrating the entire town (getting in the way).

I agree with TedMac that the lake almost HAD to be drained. Not necessarily to search for bodies, but any other potential evidence. I think everyone knew the girls weren't in the lake. Their bodies would have surfaced in the heat of July fairly quickly. I think it was more of a CYA and check for other evidence just to be sure.

Meyer's Lake appeared to be the "hot spot" of Evansdale for the media as that's where the bikes were found. LE was then able to not only drain the lake, but all these OTHER things listed in the timeline as well, but more "behind the scenes".

 

[threecrazykids]

Chilling statistics - but again proves the odds of these girls NOT knowing who did this almost zilch.

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/07/03/hunt-child-sex-abusers-happening-wrong-places-345926.html

SBM:

Just 10 Percent of the Problem

The myth of stranger danger—“dirty men” lurking in parks or malls, luring our children away from us with puppies and candy—is itself a danger. The reality is, the overwhelming majority of predators are in the victim’s family photo album or social circle. Ninety percent of children who are sexually abused know their abuser. A 2000 study found that family members account for 34 percent of people who abuse juveniles, and acquaintances account for another 59 percent. Only 7 percent were strangers.

Yet conversations about child sexual abuse often focus on horrific examples of stranger danger. We find comfort in searching registries to find out whether registered sex offenders live in our neighborhoods. We tell our children not to talk to strangers. And we label men and women who abuse children as monsters. This demonizing of strangers is extremely dangerous, considering that 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys are sexually abused by the time they turn 18, and around 90 percent of individuals with developmental disabilities will be sexually abused at some point.

“We have an idea that I would know [a sex offender] if I saw one, and I can avoid it and keep my child away,” says Karen Baker, director of the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. “We need to get over the idea that we can tell who’s a good and bad person.”

And:

Still, those big-ticket criminal justice efforts tend to get all the money and attract all the headlines. Yet these initiatives, Finkelhor says, “mostly pertain to people already identified and arrested—and only about 10 percent of new cases of abuse involve someone who has a prior record. Even if you lock up everybody who had been convicted of an offense, you’d only be taking care of 10 percent of the problem....

Sex offender registries, for example, demand huge fiscal and human resources, yet “the abundance of research appears to say they aren’t really successful,” says Levenson, who has met more than 2,000 sex offenders in her 25 years as a licensed clinical social worker. “However, they are successful in making people feel safer.”

 

[TedMac]

Chilling statistics - but again proves the odds of these girls NOT knowing who did this almost zilch.

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/07/03/hunt-child-sex-abusers-happening-wrong-places-345926.html

SBM:

Just 10 Percent of the Problem

The myth of stranger danger—“dirty men” lurking in parks or malls, luring our children away from us with puppies and candy—is itself a danger. The reality is, the overwhelming majority of predators are in the victim’s family photo album or social circle. Ninety percent of children who are sexually abused know their abuser. A 2000 study found that family members account for 34 percent of people who abuse juveniles, and acquaintances account for another 59 percent. Only 7 percent were strangers.

Yet conversations about child sexual abuse often focus on horrific examples of stranger danger. We find comfort in searching registries to find out whether registered sex offenders live in our neighborhoods. We tell our children not to talk to strangers. And we label men and women who abuse children as monsters. This demonizing of strangers is extremely dangerous, considering that 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 5 boys are sexually abused by the time they turn 18, and around 90 percent of individuals with developmental disabilities will be sexually abused at some point.

“We have an idea that I would know [a sex offender] if I saw one, and I can avoid it and keep my child away,” says Karen Baker, director of the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. “We need to get over the idea that we can tell who’s a good and bad person.”

And:

Still, those big-ticket criminal justice efforts tend to get all the money and attract all the headlines. Yet these initiatives, Finkelhor says, “mostly pertain to people already identified and arrested—and only about 10 percent of new cases of abuse involve someone who has a prior record. Even if you lock up everybody who had been convicted of an offense, you’d only be taking care of 10 percent of the problem....

Sex offender registries, for example, demand huge fiscal and human resources, yet “the abundance of research appears to say they aren’t really successful,” says Levenson, who has met more than 2,000 sex offenders in her 25 years as a licensed clinical social worker. “However, they are successful in making people feel safer.”

I agree that most murder victims know their killer and most rape victims know their attacker. However, stranger abductions, murders and rapes do happen and without solid evidence such as DNA, they can be very difficult to solve. There was another case in Iowa recently where a man abducted (actually he tricked) two girls into getting into his vehicle. He then drove them to a secluded area where he sexually assaulted and killed one of them. The other was able to escape. If I am recalling the case correctly, he was unknown to them and was a registered sex offender. I might add that these two girls were older than Lyric and Lizzy. It just goes to show, that even teenagers can be tricked. We have encouraged our children not to travel or walk alone and I support this. But, sometimes it apparently gives them a false sense of security making them even more vulnerable. MOO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree that most murder victims know their killer and most rape victims know their attacker. However, stranger abductions, murders and rapes do happen and without solid evidence such as DNA, they can be very difficult to solve. There was another case in Iowa recently where a man abducted (actually he tricked) two girls into getting into his vehicle. He then drove them to a secluded area where he sexually assaulted and killed one of them. The other was able to escape. If I am recalling the case correctly, he was unknown to them and was a registered sex offender. I might add that these two girls were older than Lyric and Lizzy. It just goes to show, that even teenagers can be tricked. We have encouraged our children not to travel or walk alone and I support this. But, sometimes it apparently gives them a false sense of security making them even more vulnerable. MOO

I totally agree with your point of view. All we have to do is watch the countless shows on tv that has shown it is so easy to get a child to leave with a stranger even though the moms involved said their child would never go with a stranger. Sadly, time and time again they were mistaken. Thankfully the stranger was only there to show how easily it can be done and had no intentions of harming any of the children. And in those cases the moms themselves are sitting right on the bench in the park watching it happen.

The statistics change drastically when the child or children have been abducted/kidnapped. It changes everything.

Washington State did a very in depth case study backed by the DOJ which used 600 actual cases of where a child had been abducted and later found to be murdered. Then they added another 175 solved cases to it in 2006 which equals to 775 actual cases in total which is a vast case study. In all of these cases the victim was known and the perpetrator had been identified. It revealed a lot of information for investigators who have to work these kind of cases.

I think it is just human nature to want to believe the perpetrator was someone who knew the child/children well and I think it just makes us feel safer if we think they were targeted by someone familiar with them instead of a stranger but more often that is not the case in kidnapped/abducted children who become victims of homicides. 44% of abducted and murdered children were killed by a stranger.

Here are the key factors they found in this in depth study.

The probability that the killer’s name will come up during the first week of the investigation has decreased. The use of *advertiser censored* by killers as a trigger to murder has increased.

Key findings:

•In 74 percent of the missing children homicide cases studied, the child murder victim was female and the average age was 11 years old.

•In 44 percent of the cases studied, the victims and killers were strangers, but in 42 percent of the cases, the victims and killers were friends or acquaintances.

•Only about 14 percent of the cases studied involved parents or intimates killing the child.
*In these cases it is most often done by a parent who does not have parental control*

•Almost two-thirds of the killers in these cases have prior arrests for violent crimes, with slightly more than half of those prior crimes committed against children.

•The primary motive for the child abduction killer in the cases studied was sexual assault.

•In nearly 60 percent of the cases studied, more than two hours passed between the time someone realized the child was missing and the time police were notified.

•In 76 percent of the missing children homicide cases studied, the child was dead within three hours of the abduction–and in 88.5 percent of the cases the child was dead within 24 hours.

- See more at: http://www.atg.wa.gov/child-abduction-murder-research#sthash.nNcAmU0d.dpuf

I have always felt these two lovely girls were enticed by a stranger to get into their vehicle. We like to think they would run away, but sadly, children this age are still too trusting, and the predator always knows to come across as friendly and unassuming.

 

[threecrazykids]

I agree that most murder victims know their killer and most rape victims know their attacker. However, stranger abductions, murders and rapes do happen and without solid evidence such as DNA, they can be very difficult to solve. There was another case in Iowa recently where a man abducted (actually he tricked) two girls into getting into his vehicle. He then drove them to a secluded area where he sexually assaulted and killed one of them. The other was able to escape. If I am recalling the case correctly, he was unknown to them and was a registered sex offender. I might add that these two girls were older than Lyric and Lizzy. It just goes to show, that even teenagers can be tricked. We have encouraged our children not to travel or walk alone and I support this. But, sometimes it apparently gives them a false sense of security making them even more vulnerable. MOO

Yep - Kathlynn Shepard. Her killer Michael Klunder was a huge topic of discussion here as to whether or not he was responsible for the deaths of Lyric and Lizzy. LE did rule him out but yes, his abduction tactics proved how guys like this work.

 

[Figbarinc]

I do not know how someone could take two innocent children and snuff the life out of them and be able to live with themselves. I do pray that this does not stay a cold case forever. At least their loved ones had some degree of closure about the case. They do not have to be worried that they are in a place where they are being harmed. But justice has not been served until the person or persons are found guilty and sentenced.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I do not know how someone could take two innocent children and snuff the life out of them and be able to live with themselves. I do pray that this does not stay a cold case forever. At least their loved ones had some degree of closure about the case. They do not have to be worried that they are in a place where they are being harmed. But justice has not been served until the person or persons are found guilty and sentenced.

Very true and until this predator is caught other children aren't safe. Sometimes predators like this kidnap, rape, and murder the child or children then quickly move on to another area and even another state altogether.

I hope LE in this jurisdiction is in contact with all police agencies across the nation that may have similar cases. Something very insignificant found at the disposal site may turn into great importance if other sites and victims were found to be eerily the same.

I pray that this case will be solved and I never give up hope because old cold cases are solved even years or decades later.

Many times there might be someone who knows something but are too fearful to speak out but as time goes on sometimes they are no longer around that person's presence and feel less fearful in telling what they have known for so long.

I remember a case I saw on A&E years back and it took a woman 26 years to come forward about a murder she knew had happened. She always was too afraid to say anything until the murderer went to prison. Once she was free from him and knew he was locked up she came forward and solved a 26 year old murder case.

I hope it doesn't take that long and hope that justice will come sooner rather than later. Families never let go of hope that the killer of their children will be caught because hope is all they have left.

IMO

 

[watcher9]

Yep - Kathlynn Shepard. Her killer Michael Klunder was a huge topic of discussion here as to whether or not he was responsible for the deaths of Lyric and Lizzy. LE did rule him out but yes, his abduction tactics proved how guys like this work.

Most of the posts in this discussion were moved to a new thread in the Serial Killers forum. I was so sure he was the one.
Here's a link to Klunder's own thread in case anyone wants to review his tactics.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ent-Sexual-Offender-Murderer-and-Suspected-SK

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I remember Joseph Duncan admitting he had killed the two little sisters in Washington State.

He didn't even have a vehicle at the time. He simply walked off with them when he spotted them at a public pool he was at. He took them to a secluded park close by, raped both of them, and then murdered them burying them in the remote wooded area of the park. They did find the skeletal remains of the children but did not have enough evidence to bring him to trial. They could place him at the pool the day they went missing but they had no eye witnesses that remembered him leaving with the little sisters. And after then he moved on to other states like CA and Idaho where he would kidnap, rape, and murder other little children.

When he murdered the little boy in CA they did have DNA found on the duct tape he used to bind him to a tree but they had no match for many years until the Greone horrific kidnappings, rapes, and murders.

So this may also be the work of a serial nomadic predator.

IMO

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I assure you that I followed this case quite closely so I was "there at the time" regardless if I posted here or not. I still say there was every reason to drain the small lake and it had nothing to do with trying to keep the media at bay so they could do other things. While it is possible the cadaver dogs could have sniffed out bodies in the water...it is probable they would have missed other evidence such as a weapon that could have been used on the girls. Dragging the lake would not have found other evidence either. They drained the lake to be certain of what was left in the water since they knew the perp was there regardless if they thought the girls were in the water or not. Due diligence. Not a waste of time nor resources.

I am apparently not communicating clearly.

In no way was I suggesting you had not followed the case closely.

I was trying to convey the emotional tone of some of the arguments here on WS and on some of the media forums at the time. Nothing more than that.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Chilling statistics - but again proves the odds of these girls NOT knowing who did this almost zilch.

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/07/03/hunt-child-sex-abusers-happening-wrong-places-345926.html

SBM:

Just 10 Percent of the Problem

The myth of stranger danger—“dirty men” lurking in parks or malls, luring our children away from us with puppies and candy—is itself a danger. The reality is, the overwhelming majority of predators are in the victim’s family photo album or social circle. Ninety percent of children who are sexually abused know their abuser. A 2000 study found that family members account for 34 percent of people who abuse juveniles, and acquaintances account for another 59 percent. Only 7 percent were strangers.

<<<SBM>>>

Still, those big-ticket criminal justice efforts tend to get all the money and attract all the headlines. Yet these initiatives, Finkelhor says, &#8220;mostly pertain to people already identified and arrested&#8212;and only about 10 percent of new cases of abuse involve someone who has a prior record. Even if you lock up everybody who had been convicted of an offense, you&#8217;d only be taking care of 10 percent of the problem....

Sex offender registries, for example, demand huge fiscal and human resources, yet &#8220;the abundance of research appears to say they aren&#8217;t really successful,&#8221; says Levenson, who has met more than 2,000 sex offenders in her 25 years as a licensed clinical social worker. &#8220;However, they are successful in making people feel safer.&#8221;

SBM

Good points, all.

The stats for child sexual assaults and murders reflect the stats for adult sexual assaults and murders: most of the time, the perpetrator is someone the victim lives with, lived with in the last 3 years or knew well. The cases where the perp had no known social ties to the victim are the most difficult to solve, are likely to take a long time to solve and are the most expensive to solve.

So you can look at it from either direction: the perp in this case was likely to be known to one or both victims because statistically that is the most likely. OR the perp in this case had no known social ties to either girl, which is why it is taking so long to solve.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I have always felt these two lovely girls were enticed by a stranger to get into their vehicle. We like to think they would run away, but sadly, children this age are still too trusting, and the predator always knows to come across as friendly and unassuming.

SBM

I have felt since very close to the beginning that the perp is a stranger or, at most, very distant acquaintance whose name would not necessarily be known to either family (for example, someone that worked at a store one or both families used).

On WS, there were posters who felt that it would be too difficult for one perp to control two young girls but I have always felt that it would be easier. Just get one girl under physical control and the other would go right along out of terror, love and loyalty to her cousin. There were also several posts on WS by people who had been accosted by a stranger with a weapon as children and, as I recall, every single one of those posters were compliant out of terror. Didn't matter if they had been previously instructed to run or not.

 

[carbuff]

I don't think they would have needed a weapon or even threats. Just a good enticing story.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I remember Joseph Duncan admitting he had killed the two little sisters in Washington State.

He didn't even have a vehicle at the time. He simply walked off with them when he spotted them at a public pool he was at. He took them to a secluded park close by, raped both of them, and then murdered them burying them in the remote wooded area of the park. They did find the skeletal remains of the children but did not have enough evidence to bring him to trial. They could place him at the pool the day they went missing but they had no eye witnesses that remembered him leaving with the little sisters. And after then he moved on to other states like CA and Idaho where he would kidnap, rape, and murder other little children.

When he murdered the little boy in CA they did have DNA found on the duct tape he used to bind him to a tree but they had no match for many years until the Greone horrific kidnappings, rapes, and murders.

So this may also be the work of a serial nomadic predator.

IMO

I think it could be but if so, he's a highly organised predator. He clearly knew that Seven Bridges Park near Readlyn was not heavily trafficked, for example. Then again, Duncan seemed to have no problems in finding remote locations wherever he went so there's no reason to think another one such as he might have the same talent.

 

[Wondergirl]

Has there ever been a thorough timeline composed for this case? I see that the amazing case map is listed in our opening post, but preliminary digging hasn't led me to a timeline. Can someone help me out?

You know, I don't recall a timeline ever having been done

 

[Wondergirl]

I see this thread has been moved to the Cold Cases forum.
I made me a bookmark so I wouldn't lose it.
***

I agree that Wylma's time was probably an approximate time, either because she just estimated or her clock was off by a few minutes.

I also believe that the bicyclist who spotted the girls' bikes was also a guesstimate.

The security video is the only apparent reliable time we have and even it had to be adjusted.

Here is two old links that talk about the video and the times.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-io...deo-elizabeth-collins-lyric/story?id=16850676

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_c7394e3c-d6a6-11e1-a4f3-0019bb2963f4.html

I remember reading the bycyclist's daughters posts on Facebook, in the hours after his discovery.

There was a certainty about the time at which he discovered the bikes, and I *think* it was due to a phone call - with his daughter.

 

[Wondergirl]

I implore anyone seriously interested in the girls' case, to read the scanner threads in the parking lot. The widely discussed info on the K9 hits are not what I would call conclusive, and are highly subject to interpretation. I listened live to the scanner at the time.

Jmo

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I implore anyone seriously interested in the girls' case, to read the scanner threads in the parking lot. The widely discussed info on the K9 hits are not what I would call conclusive, and are highly subject to interpretation. I listened live to the scanner at the time.

Jmo

My ability to find anything on WS these days is probably less than random chance, since I think I would actually find what I'm looking for if it were truly random. It's like I suffer from anti-finding ability!

However, so far as dogs are concerned, I do have something to contribute in general terms.

Every dog and handler ends up communicating in their own way. This happens even for the same handler with two different dogs. It is a little like marriage in that there are two personalities or characters that go into making the whole and both have to have enough room to perform their own role. So a handler can't just say "this is how I want my dog to communicate with me" and expect things to happen that way.

This means that someone who is not intimately familiar with the dog and handler team cannot necessarily figure out what is going on just by watching the team in action. Dog/handler teams can certainly be tested but the judge(s) can only say whether the team passed or failed, not what the dog was communicating o the handler or the handler was communicating to the dog.

In theory, most dogs are trained for a yes/no indication but in practise, there are stronger and weaker versions of both yes and no. So far as humans can tell, dogs vary widely in what they consider a scent strong enough to warrant a 'yes'. This may be because some dogs are more sensitive to odour than other dogs, it may be because some dogs are more confident in saying yes than other dogs and it may be because some handlers are better at communicating with their dogs than others.

One common visualisation used to try to communicate what scentwork is like for dogs to humans who don't do scentwork themselves is to imagine a trillion seed beads in a million different colours dumped out on the ground. The dog's job is to figure out if there are any kelly green seed beads present and if so, whether those kelly green seed beads form a discernible pattern. Mint green doesn't count, sage green doesn't count, teal green doesn't count, seafoam green doesn't count, forest green doesn't count, emerald green doesn't count, olive green doesn't count, only kelly green counts. Now imagine that your teammate is apparently blind or at the very least severely sight impaired, does not speak your language but expects you to give a clear answer anyway. And yet sometimes that teammate gives off strong indicators that act as useful clues for you to do your job.

How do you know when to ignore your stupid teammate? How do you know when to take the hint your genius teammate is proffering to you? The same way you know how to deal successfully with your spouse: lots and lots of experience in effective communication and teamwork.

So. Given all the above, what anyone else observes a dog doing or not doing doesn't really count for as much as one might think. What really counts is the report that the handler gives. In order to know how to weight that report, we need access to that handler's training logs and test results, to judge how that particular handler/dog team perform over time and under known conditions.

So far as I know, no one in the general public was ever given access to the handler's reports for what their dog indicated that day and no one has been allowed to check the handler's training logs and test results.

Anything said in WS threads about the dog indications are just guesses and possibly wish projection.