IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #5

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Locals, do you know if LE thinks any of the "witnesses" are credible? I'm talking about the cyclist, gentleman watering his lawn, etc. What, officially, is being taken as fact? What the officials state as fact may be completely different from what was mentioned in passing within the first 24 hours and then dropped.

Are LE stating that the girls were last seen alive at 12:15? If so, does that mean they are discounting anyone with a sighting of them after that time?
 
It was do-able, though. Someone posted that according to Google Maps, the distance between was estimated at 7-8 minutes.

That would take us to 12:23 pm. That leaves about 3 minutes for a perp to pop out of ambush, grab one girl by the arm (probably Lyric), threaten to hurt her if Elizabeth didn't comply, make her throw her purse over the lakeside fence and then marching them both off into the woods.

I'd love to be able to ask the 12:27 witness if he happened to look into the woods when he saw the bikes on the path. I'm sure LE already has and I'm reasonably certain the answer was no. Otherwise, LE would have released whatever description the witness could give.

I'm not sure he would have looked into the woods, though. He was on a blind curve, he'd just about run into an obstacle and he still had to look sharp in case another bicyclist popped around the curve. Nothing like avoiding one hazard only to be hit head-on because it made you forget to watch out.

Force the girls into something like a van, put zip-ties or some other restraint device on them and the perpetrator could be gone before 12:30 pm.

If the 12:27 sighting is accurate, this really reminds me of GeorgeAnn Hawkins, who was one of Ted Bundy's victims. She was walking down an alley behind a row of fraternities and sororities on a night where they were all having parties to celebrate the beginning of the fall semester. There were roughly 1000 people attending parties at the fraternities and sororities. Many of them were walking down the alley in both directions.

The alley was well lit except for one 30 foot stretch where a storage shed blocked the light. The dark stretch no doubt seemed darker in contrast to the lights on either side (the human retina takes something like 6 minutes to fully adapt to low light situations).

She disappeared from that one dark stretch.

On the day before he was executed, Ted finally confessed to her abduction. He said that he had a fake cast on his arm (a ruse he'd used before) and asked her to help him with his briefcase. He'd parked his VW bug in that area earlier in the evening and had placed a tire iron underneath the car in preparation. She stepped over to the car to help with the briefcase, he reached down, grabbed the tire iron, knocked her unconscious with one blow and placed her in the area beside the driver's seat (he'd removed the passenger side seat, one reason he liked VW Bugs).

It only took him about three minutes from the time he approached Ms Hawkins until the time he drove off with her unconscious body.

Something to consider is that lacking a fear response means that psychopaths don't waste time with hesitation once they have decided to take an action. Saves time at times when seconds count.

BBM: The 12:27 pm witness didn't see or hear anything at all
 
Unless the girls were carrying snacks (or someone gave them candy) I think they would have gotten hungry and gone home to have a bit of lunch by 1:00. Gma said they were always in and out of the house for a V-8 juice etc.

(I guess the days of dye-infused, “just add water and 10 cups of sugar” Kool-Aid is passe.)

Is there a public water fountain at the lake?
 
Some quick thoughts from a local...these are my interpretations of all I have read, heard, and seen...I apologize I don't have links to everything, but maybe some can confirm/refute what I think I remember.

The timeline:
11:30am - Grandma OK's a bike ride
12:15pm - Grandma sees girls across the street, behind Lederman's
12:15pm - Video footage of girls leaving the area
12:20pm - Approximately...cyclist swerves to miss two kids' bikes laying on the trail
12:27pm - Cyclist phones daughter with his cell phone from nearby gas station (IMO, could have covered that distance in under 5 mins)
2:00 pm - Grandma, mother, brother begin driving and searching
2:45 pm - Witness at Meyers Lake parking area tells of seeing girls on trail nearby
2:45 pm - Girls reported missing to police - park is 2 blocks from police station
3:00 pm - LE "swarms" the lake area
4:00 pm - Approximate...firefighter (they are mostly volunteers in E'dale) discovers bikes
After 4:00pm - Cyclist learns girls are missing (I think he sees a search group), reports his earlier sighting of the bikes, confirms time of phone call
I'm guessing, since LE was operating at that time as if the girls had gone in the lake, that the bikes were moved by the firefighter or other LE, and when Abben arrived they'd been propped against the fence. Just a guess, but based on what we've heard (cyclist says bikes were laying on trail, Abben says bikes propped "when he arrived.")


It seems, if we can count on that video being the girls, and the cyclists time being correct, then the window of opportunity for the perp is very small. Given that, and what I personally have witnessed of the area, here is a possible scenario:

Perp is in lake area, has backed a vehicle thru the brush into the woods near where the trail is secluded. His vehicle can be parked in those woods and not seen from the road or the trail (and I know I saw tire tracks leading in there, reported to police, photographed, etc). He's out of his vehicle, walking up and down that portion of trail. The girls enter the "trap," and he somehow - by luring or by force - gets them off the bikes and into his waiting vehicle, and pulls out onto Arbutus Ave, drives away, leaving the bikes on the trail. Perhaps the purse was dropped in the woods, around the fence, when he was putting the girls in the vehicle. Minutes later, the cyclist happens past the bikes. If perp's local, he can be at home or wherever before the grandmother notices the girls are missing. The river, and many remote locations, are mere minutes away. If he's not local, he could have gotten to Hwy 20 within 3-5 mins, and be traveling west, north, or south (Hwy 218 intersects Hwy 20 within a mile of him getting on) at 60mph for 2+ hours before police are notified. This would give him time to reach I-35, or even to loop back and go east, almost to the Mississippi River.

All speculation on my part, fwiw. Obviously I am biased having seen tracks in the woods. If those tracks were not made by LE (which I doubt, as they repeatedly gained access to the trail/lake w/o having to plow thru woods with a vehicle, and doing so would/could be dangerous, considering the girls may have been in that underbrush), they are incredibly suspicious. I have not heard any LE and/or press mention them, ONLY ME, so again, this is pure speculation. A perp could also simply have had his vehicle backed into the woods there partway, so as to shield only the rear of his vehicle in the woods, or he could have had his vehicle waiting as far as Arbutus, and somehow gotten the girls that far (altho that is close to a block - maybe 100 yds - from where the bikes were found).

This all depends on the girls making it from where/when the camera recorded them, to the lake, in that time. I will definitely double-check that distance tomorrow, but IMO, they'd have to be racing to make it, from Brovan, to Sipple, to Morrell and over to the trail, or just to Evans, and then south to the lake. I'd bet I could do it, tbh. Two young girls on kids bikes, tho? :dunno:

First post. Hello to all on WS.

Ollipop, your thoughts mirror mine in many ways. However, I bike Iowa a lot, and one thing I can't quite get out of my head is the possibility that a bike trailer/burlee could be used as a vehicle. No one would bat an eye at a bike trailer on a bike path, since they "belong" whereas a car/van or a 4-wheeler would seem out of the ordinary and might attract attention.

Seems from Google Maps there is a bike bridge that crosses 380 which is very accessible from the spot they were last seen. Once across 380 it's an old converted railroad line made to a bike path and goes quite a ways.

Just a thought. If they took a ride in a "cool" bike trailer they could be hauled a long ways fast.
 
To all the new posters, welcome to WS!

:welcome:
 
Good! Being polite and well-mannered is one thing but a child should never feel uncomfortable around someone they don't know well. I see many babies and toddlers when I am out and about and I often talk to them or comment on how cute they are, but I NEVER get close enough to touch them, I stay several feet back. And I always try to avoid making the child or their parents feel uncomfortable in any way. Most are okay with it, but if I see that the child or the parent is especially wary, I smile and move on. Even sweet old grandma-type ladies can scare a child if they're not careful, I had a few scary moments when I was a child!!

My favorite thing I used to do with my kids when they were little was wait until somebody (especially the sweet grandma type) started conversing with them in a busy store checkout line, then I'd ask my kids loud enough so eveyone could hear "I want you to look around you at all the people here. They look like pretty nice people don't they?" and my kids would respond "yeah". Then I would say "Well we don't know any of these people. They look nice, but they are all strangers because we don't know them. Even nice looking people are strangers." their eyes would get all wide..LOL!
 
I must say this. Everyone compare your clocks. As I sit here now typing this, my cell phone says the time is 9:16 and my iPad says it's 9:20. My husbands cell phone says it is 9:22. If we are comparing times, its impossible to get down to the minute with different devices. I have worked emergency medicine for years and when working a code you always use ONE time piece when documenting. My point is, comparing time from the video where the girls were seen to the time the bike rider says he saw the bikes could be off as much as 10 extra minutes or so. So instead of 12:15 siting to 12:20 siting of bikes you could be looking at 6-10 extra minutes there. Lord I hope that makes since and I haven't just made a fool of myself.


Thank you for bringing this important point up!! Everybody should realize that so many people don't stop to note an exact time for things, and many people don't wear a watch or check their cell phones for the time. So the timelines could be off by several minutes either way, and that is considering that someone noted the time at exactly the moment they saw the girls. What if they didn't think to look at their watch until a minute or two had passed?
Even surveillance cameras on businesses are sometimes off by a few minutes. I'm a clock watcher, but I often don't take note of the time, unless I have an appointment and know I have to leave the house within a certain timeframe. Even then, I don't always know the exact time down to the second. Human nature being what it is, how many of us would be able to say they saw someone or something at EXACTLY a certain time, unless they looked at a clock or a watch RIGHT THEN? And why would a person think to note the time if they had no idea these girls would come up missing within minutes?
It's something to think about!!
 
First post. Hello to all on WS.

Ollipop, your thoughts mirror mine in many ways. However, I bike Iowa a lot, and one thing I can't quite get out of my head is the possibility that a bike trailer/burlee could be used as a vehicle. No one would bat an eye at a bike trailer on a bike path, since they "belong" whereas a car/van or a 4-wheeler would seem out of the ordinary and might attract attention.

Seems from Google Maps there is a bike bridge that crosses 380 which is very accessible from the spot they were last seen. Once across 380 it's an old converted railroad line made to a bike path and goes quite a ways.

Just a thought. If they took a ride in a "cool" bike trailer they could be hauled a long ways fast.

Welcome!!!

Do they make them large enough for 2 children? Remember Lyric is 145lbs, so both together are about 230lbs. That's a heavy load to peddle around. IMO

ETA: Just realized your talking about them being "parked" there..and used just as a lure. Very good point and thought.
 
I would think cell phone times are accurate, they come from the tower/satellite.

Yes. I feel they are accurate as well, but why do cell phones have different times on them? Meaning my phone, my husbands phone, my iPad? I don't know, my thoughts were just that there could be some room for extra minutes in this time frame. If I call someone from my cell and it records the time, it would not match the time if my husband called someone else at the exact same time from his cell. just my thoughts! :)
 
Please don't hate me, but could this be a hoax to get heat off dad's trial???
Postpone it?
for money??
and never dreamed it would backfire into national news???
I'm just brain storming.
I truely think the girls are in harms way with bad individuals.
 
If one girl was trailing the other, it would have been easy to lure one girl and knock her out. The second would have stopped her bike at her friend's bike. She was then a sitting duck for the same treatment.

Trusting the dogs, I think evidence points to the fact that one or both girls were lured to the wood's edge - maybe with a puppy, etc. Something that would stop them in their tracks and make them get off their bikes. It would be easy to snatch them into the woods where there was plenty of cover to tie them up and cart them off.

Does anyone know whether the dogs lost the scent in the woods? Were the dogs even led into the woods to search?

BBM: Yes, I know an answer for 1 dog/handler.

In the Scanner Thread, I transcribed the LE dog handler, where he went and what he said, the day they first brought the dogs in.

It will very clearly indicate to anyone who reads that post, exactly what happened with that Dog/Handler, and is likely the reason why LE spent so much time at the Lake.

I do not know what type of Dog that was, but, at the time "blood hounds" were the main topic.

After following many cases, I know from Sarx and Oriah that tracking and dog use is very, very specific. Sometimes, blood hounds from jails are brought in for a missing persons case, whereas that blood hound is a good tracker, but, has been trained for sniffing out drugs/escaped prisoners etc. I am not suggesting that the incorrect dogs were used the night I was listening, which was at the beginning of the dog search, but, I know that there are many variables with the dogs.

Here is a link to my post. We are not allowed to discuss it on this thread. You must be a member of WS to access the Scanner Thread.

Dog/Handler transcription at bottom of post:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
 
Some quick thoughts from a local...these are my interpretations of all I have read, heard, and seen...I apologize I don't have links to everything, but maybe some can confirm/refute what I think I remember.

The timeline:
11:30am - Grandma OK's a bike ride
12:15pm - Grandma sees girls across the street, behind Lederman's
12:15pm - Video footage of girls leaving the area
12:20pm - Approximately...cyclist swerves to miss two kids' bikes laying on the trail
12:27pm - Cyclist phones daughter with his cell phone from nearby gas station (IMO, could have covered that distance in under 5 mins)
2:00 pm - Grandma, mother, brother begin driving and searching
2:45 pm - Witness at Meyers Lake parking area tells of seeing girls on trail nearby
2:45 pm - Girls reported missing to police - park is 2 blocks from police station
3:00 pm - LE "swarms" the lake area
4:00 pm - Approximate...firefighter (they are mostly volunteers in E'dale) discovers bikes
After 4:00pm - Cyclist learns girls are missing (I think he sees a search group), reports his earlier sighting of the bikes, confirms time of phone call
I'm guessing, since LE was operating at that time as if the girls had gone in the lake, that the bikes were moved by the firefighter or other LE, and when Abben arrived they'd been propped against the fence. Just a guess, but based on what we've heard (cyclist says bikes were laying on trail, Abben says bikes propped "when he arrived.")


It seems, if we can count on that video being the girls, and the cyclists time being correct, then the window of opportunity for the perp is very small. Given that, and what I personally have witnessed of the area, here is a possible scenario:

Perp is in lake area, has backed a vehicle thru the brush into the woods near where the trail is secluded. His vehicle can be parked in those woods and not seen from the road or the trail (and I know I saw tire tracks leading in there, reported to police, photographed, etc). He's out of his vehicle, walking up and down that portion of trail. The girls enter the "trap," and he somehow - by luring or by force - gets them off the bikes and into his waiting vehicle, and pulls out onto Arbutus Ave, drives away, leaving the bikes on the trail. Perhaps the purse was dropped in the woods, around the fence, when he was putting the girls in the vehicle. Minutes later, the cyclist happens past the bikes. If perp's local, he can be at home or wherever before the grandmother notices the girls are missing. The river, and many remote locations, are mere minutes away. If he's not local, he could have gotten to Hwy 20 within 3-5 mins, and be traveling west, north, or south (Hwy 218 intersects Hwy 20 within a mile of him getting on) at 60mph for 2+ hours before police are notified. This would give him time to reach I-35, or even to loop back and go east, almost to the Mississippi River.

All speculation on my part, fwiw. Obviously I am biased having seen tracks in the woods. If those tracks were not made by LE (which I doubt, as they repeatedly gained access to the trail/lake w/o having to plow thru woods with a vehicle, and doing so would/could be dangerous, considering the girls may have been in that underbrush), they are incredibly suspicious. I have not heard any LE and/or press mention them, ONLY ME, so again, this is pure speculation. A perp could also simply have had his vehicle backed into the woods there partway, so as to shield only the rear of his vehicle in the woods, or he could have had his vehicle waiting as far as Arbutus, and somehow gotten the girls that far (altho that is close to a block - maybe 100 yds - from where the bikes were found).

This all depends on the girls making it from where/when the camera recorded them, to the lake, in that time. I will definitely double-check that distance tomorrow, but IMO, they'd have to be racing to make it, from Brovan, to Sipple, to Morrell and over to the trail, or just to Evans, and then south to the lake. I'd bet I could do it, tbh. Two young girls on kids bikes, tho? :dunno:

I like this theory Olli...let me throw another thought into the mix...what if when the bicylist has to swerve to avoid the bikes on the trail the girls are dinking around at the waters edge. He doesn't see the girls just the bikes. wouldn't this widen the perp's window of opportunity? I mean just because the bikes are in the path, doesn't mean the girls have been abducted yet. JMO
 
BBM: Yes, I know an answer for 1 dog/handler.

In the Scanner Thread, I transcribed the LE dog handler, where he went and what he said, the day they first brought the dogs in.

It will very clearly indicate to anyone who reads that post, exactly what happened with that Dog/Handler, and is likely the reason why LE spent so much time at the Lake.

I do not know what type of Dog that was, but, at the time "blood hounds" were the main topic.

After following many cases, I know from Sarx and Oriah that tracking and dog use is very, very specific. Sometimes, blood hounds from jails are brought in for a missing persons case, whereas that blood hound is a good tracker, but, has been trained for sniffing out drugs/escaped prisoners etc. I am not suggesting that the incorrect dogs were used the night I was listening, which was at the beginning of the dog search, but, I know that there are many variables with the dogs.

Here is a link to my post. We are not allowed to discuss it on this thread. You must be a member of WS to access the Scanner Thread.

Dog/Handler transcription at bottom of post:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

wondergirl..where is the link?
 
Are we absolutely sure there was only one set of bikes?

Could the cyclist have seen bikes dropped by other children (who might have just raced into the bushes to pee, and returned to claim them moments later)? And, if the perp, lying in wait, witnessed this, might he not have positioned the cousins' bikes in the same spot, so as to cloud the time of the actual abduction?
 
Please don't hate me, but could this be a hoax to get heat off dad's trial???
Postpone it?
for money??
and never dreamed it would backfire into national news???
I'm just brain storming.
I truely think the girls are in harms way with bad individuals.

Could never hate ya passionflower ***<3****.

Well, you never know how an addict may think, but with his record, time nor money will help. Hence the plea deal. IMO
 
My favorite thing I used to do with my kids when they were little was wait until somebody (especially the sweet grandma type) started conversing with them in a busy store checkout line, then I'd ask my kids loud enough so eveyone could hear "I want you to look around you at all the people here. They look like pretty nice people don't they?" and my kids would respond "yeah". Then I would say "Well we don't know any of these people. They look nice, but they are all strangers because we don't know them. Even nice looking people are strangers." their eyes would get all wide..LOL!

I did sort of the opposite with my kids. We discussed on a regular basis WHO was SAFE to ask for help. First was always someone "on duty".... at an outdoor event it would be uniformed police officers, fire or EMS personnel, or even the ticket takers at a sports event. In a store or mall it would be security, the person at the checkout register or the information booth where strollers are often rented out. In the absence of these alternatives they were told to find a mother with HAPPY children with her and ask her for help.

I just always believed it was better to have children feel a confidence in being able to help themselves in that situation, rather than FEAR everyone so much that they would be paralyzed or even worse HIDE making it harder to locate them.
 
I have read this as well- I don't make my kids converse with people we don't know well. If they get a bad feeling, I want them to be able to follow their instincts! I have found my kids to be pretty good at reading people so far, and I am not going to step in and force them. I expect them to be nice and polite to people we know of course.

I never made my kids sit on Santa's lap either...they always thought it was creepy and uncomfortable.
 
I have felt all along they were abducted and taken to an abandoned building...near waterloo....an abandoned school..Take the dogs..
 
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