IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #9

[CHERIE.T]

Ollipop,
I think you're reading part of my signature as a new post. Lol
I'm going to edit that now.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Lol...don't be sorry, I'm easily confused.

I think I'm seeing it. The trail goes past a wooded area, in which there is an old, barely discernible, more or less abandoned road or path. There is no easy access to the bike trail from that path, nor is there really room to turn a vehicle around on it, but it IS a great hiding spot, for ppl or a vehicle. The main issue is the fence, which is 8ft tall and blocks access between the trail and the wooded area. The fence does end, however, several yards to the east, so that walking around it would lead you back thru the woods, but you'd be fighting some serious undergrowth and slightly thick woods. It's doable. It wouldn't be easy with a bike, nor with one or two girls in tow. But if you could lure them back there somehow, once they got in the woods with you, you'd be hidden to do as you pleased.

Ohh that greatly helps me! Thank you.
I completely forgot about the 8 ft. fence. ...kind of hard to drive a vehicle over that. :blushing:

 

[Jules71]

Random stranger guy that Tammy said saw the girls riding their bikes at the lake reported seeing them at 2:30. Also Tammy is quoted stating he saw them riding east and also quoted saying he saw them riding west. We discussed it Thursday or Friday I think. Should be in the last thread. Too hard to find it on my tablet. I have always felt like this witness did not exist.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ollipop]

Oh geez, I almost forgot. Another rumor:

My wife, in speaking with a family member today, heard that Dr Phil had called the family about appearing on his show. I have no idea as to the validity of this claim, but it would be something to look forward to.

My biggest problem so far with these national-TV interviews, is that the interviewer, be it NG or JVM or whoever, don't seem to be very-well briefed beforehand. Couple this with the fact that they are on a time budget, along with the ever-present need for sensationalism to compete with other similar shows, and I sometimes end up just as confused afterwards, if not more so. I don't see Dr Phil being any different. I mean, some of us have stayed up late every night, pouring through every report, every shred of info, comparing notes, hypothesizing, etc, etc, and many of US are still confused. How can we expect the NG's of the world to somehow mastermind some earth-shattering breakthrough with the limited exposure they'd have to the admittedly sparse and inconsistent facts of the case? I suppose the redeeming quality is that the story is heard by that many more ppl, so there are that many more eyes looking, that many more ears listening, etc.

Sigh...I need sleep.

 

[john's mom]

But what reason to tell the tale if not true?

 

[CHERIE.T]

Also, with all the confusion and tightness within the timeline, perhaps the paddleboat was just LE's way of trying to settle how TG could have seen the bikes around 12:30 where they were later found, but someone else thought they saw the girls on their bikes around 2:15.

If one or both claimed to have seen a paddleboater, that could help LE nail down the last time the girls were seen. Having not disclosed much other than "several people came forward with info" (I'm pretty sure we heard that at a PC, did we not?) about the paddleboats, maybe the info they got was inconclusive.

Perhaps there was a runner who saw the bikes, apart from TG. Perhaps TG saw the bikes but that is not where they were found at 4.

When I first heard where the bikes were found, my gut told me they'd been dumped there, only because it is the best-hidden spot on the lake. I figured, if they were taken, they were taken from another spot on the trail, and their bikes were left behind, along with the purse, then some other kids came across them and quickly rode them out of sight to rifle thru the purse. But the TG sighting makes that all but impossible, if it was the girls' bikes, at the location they were found later.

Another thing that bugs me is that gramma felt she'd made it clear that they had to be leaving the Collins home before 1:30. If that was the case, and Lyric knew it, and she'd recently had an episode where the police were called because she was late getting home, why would she still be riding around the lake at 2? Even if they knew the way to the lake, even if they decided at 12:10 to make a quick run to the lake, apparently they were never known to be gone that long, so what made them linger long enough to be spotted riding west at 2? That witness seems the least credible to me, and is the one that, afaik, has not been interviewed in MSM. Ted Gamerdinger was interviewed and presumaby spoke to police (altho we all learned of him thru FB). Robert Carpenter was interviewed more than once, and presumably has spoken to LE. The 2:00 witness, despite Tammy saying that LE knew his name, etc, has not been mentioned anywhere by LE or MSM, yet his sighting seems to be the one used on the Missing Posters.

bbm
Hummmm......
Maybe the 2:00 witness is being kept away from MSM at LE's request. :moo:

 

[Ollipop]

But what reason to tell the tale if not true?

I thought it was a nice segue into my thoughts on the national tv exposure?

 

[katydid23]

Random stranger guy that Tammy said saw the girls riding their bikes at the lake reported seeing them at 2:30. Also Tammy is quoted stating he saw them riding east and also quoted saying he saw them riding west. We discussed it Thursday or Friday I think. Should be in the last thread. Too hard to find it on my tablet. I have always felt like this witness did not exist.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Didn't she also say ' The police have his name.." or something like that.

I have serious doubts about that witness as well. Nobody else seems to have seen the girls, but the first random guy she spoke with saw them riding their bikes. But I don't understand why the girls would have been riding around the lake on the trail, when they know they were supposed to have been home by 1 or 1:30. They had already been out riding since 11:30 am. So why would they just keep riding around the lake like that?

I know kids are often late, but usually because they are at a friends or at the mall or something. But why would they just keep riding around the lake like that, knowing the trouble Lyric had just been in for being late a few days earlier? I think that witness was mistaken or he saw the wrong girls.

 

[superbee]

I guess they could have been forced to stop and get off their bikes, then the perp could have grabbed the purse and tossed it over the fence as he's walking the girls down the trail. Still, the probability that someone would cycle down the path seems pretty high - since someone was riding in that exact location at that exact time. We also have the 8 minute timeline that the girls had to ride like the wind to get to that location, be forced off their bikes, walk the path towards the end of one of the fences and vanish into the treed area. That timeline is awfully tight.

I wonder if the perp glanced into the purse and, seeing the cell phone used only to play games, assumed it could be used at least to call 911 or send a 'ping' that could be traced, so chucked the purse over the fence?

 

[superbee]

Sometimes I almost feel like I'm subconsciously trying to make each of my ideas more far-fetched than the last one, and this is one of those times. In spite of that, here goes.

What are the chances that someone stole/borrowed the paddleboat and left it sitting in the general area the bikes were found (where the dogs followed the scent to the water). If the girls had found the boat, dropped their bikes and were trying to take it for a ride, would they have been obvious to TG when he rode by?

It just seems like they could have gotten off the boat and back onto their bikes to go home, but maybe saw something they shouldn't have . If whoever they saw stopped them and told them to get off their bikes, they could have leaned them against the fence then. Sorry, I haven't figured out many details, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble if they would have been right in his line of sight when he came by, or if there are other glaring holes in it. I'm sure someone will fill me in on wherever I'm way off base.

I think you are onto something with the paddleboat. If the girls living near the grandma's house rode to the lake all the time, what would be the attaction to doing that? Them and possibly other kids too? One thing certainly would be if there was someone who had access to the lake and a paddleboat and gave rides to kids or let the kids use the paddleboat.

The kids may never have told their parents, but may have told a trusted adult(s) what was really going on. If the paddleboat was pulled up to the beach, the girls may have thought it was okay to get in it, or use it, if they had done so before. LE may be getting info from the trusted adult(s) and kids as to who did the kids see and what did they do when they were on these regular rides to the lake. Maybe this is why the one adult thought of the lake right away?

Footprints. I wonder about footprints. I hope the lakeshore was checked for footprints and other marks ie. paddle boat marks in the sand. There could have been a story from the marks in the sand.

 

[superbee]

Justice with Jeannie Pirro was on with WC and TB on the phone. WC said the girls had NEVER gone to the lake, ever. Later TB commented that yes, girls were friends with 3 girls who live across from the lake, they had been there before.
Now my question to you, you would think this famly would have discussed this as much as we have discussed all the possibilities. So are you telling me that through all the discussions, no one ever told Grandma (WC) yes, girls have been to Meyers Lake before. I just find this so baffling. How about you> Thanks

I watched the rebroadcast. My suspicion is that TB could have been a confidant to one or both girls, and maybe local kids also, so was reluctant to tell WC and other adults in the family that the girls had been to the lake before. Probably because it would break her idea of trust with the kids, and secondly she didn't want WC to feel she had not been keeping track of the girls well enough. I suspect that because TB knew of the local kids going to the lake regularly, when the girls were late coming home, TB's fear meter went immediately to the lake. IMO

 

[GrainneDhu]

There's one thing about this scenario that doesn't work for me. If they were accosted by someone on the path, why would that person do it in the double fence area. It seems to me that it would be much easier to call out to the girls and get control of them without having to leave their bikes in the double fence area ... that is, why not do this where there was only one fence?

Were I the perp, I would choose the double fenced area to accost the girls. The double fence means that their freedom to dodge away from me on their bicycles would be very limited.

I'd pretend I was walking along about 2 feet from the fence between the interstate and trail. That would leave 6 feet for the girl in the lead to ride by me and she would probably aim for the middle of that distance. She wouldn't want to hit me or catch up against the fence.

So she'd be about 3 feet away from me when she was near me. That is within an arm's length. With the fences there, that would prevent her from dodging to avoid me.

Then I'd lunge, grab her by the arm and tug her off the bike. Show a weapon such as an ice pick, box cutter or knife and chances are, she'd become instantly compliant. As would the other girl.

 

[CN2Souls]

Wait a second, :waitasec:


If the Person Tammy said saw the girls at the lake around 2-2:30,

Wouldn't Grandmother and Grandson who searched there at 12:30-1:30 have seen them???

ETA: Was Tammy at work up until she was meeting with Grandmother at Heathers to "they had something to do"

:waitasec:

 

[GrainneDhu]

I'm wondering how long it would take to stop the two girls and force them to walk between the two fences to the end of the fence. Wouldn't there be a risk of running into someone, like the cyclist, on the trail? It seems like a popular trail and recreation area, so why risk running into someone while controlling the girls and walking between the two fences until the end of one of the fences? What's to stop one of the girls from making a run for it as soon as she gets to the end of the double fence area? Why not accost them at the beginning of the double fence area and force them into the treed area?

If the abductor ran into someone who seemed to be taking notice, they could do what all the other attempted abductors have done: let go of the girls and beat feet outta there.

The abductor didn't need physical control of both girls. If one girl was held firmly by the arm or hair and threatened with a knife, I think there's a good chance the other girl would comply immediately to prevent the first girl from being hurt.

Had one of the girls made a run for it, I think the abductor would have turned the other girl loose and then escaped.

I think it would be much easier to grab one girl off a bicycle in the double fenced area and then walk them to the area with the trees.

It reminds me of a place in the woods where I rode as a kid. There was this narrow winding path of beaten down dirt that was rideable in dry weather. Every now and then, one of the kid pack would sneak off into the woods and ambush someone else in the kid pack. It's easy for an 8 year old to yank another 8 year old off a bicycle if the ambusher can get a good grip on the ambushee's arm.

Back then, it never occurred to us that this could be seriously frightening or cause injuries. It was just another form a game playing. I don't think it occurred to any of us that an adult might do the same thing.

I mean, what would an adult be doing in that bit of woods? We couldn't imagine any reason for it.

We were such innocent kids.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Sorry to say this, but if a local took them, their bodies are someplace, probably within ten-twenty miles, IMO. Very unlikely to be holding two girls of this age for over two weeks now. They would have no way of knowing if LE should knock on the door and ask to search, and besides, it just is not that easy to hold one person, much less two. Easier to take them and then be "rid" of them, I fear. Professional searchers really should be called in, IMO.

I'm not sure what you mean by "professional searchers."

I keep wondering if the perp is someone who moved away from Evansdale at some point in the last five years or so.

That would account for the local knowledge but might help avert suspicion.

 

[GrainneDhu]

There's uncertainty about whether the bikes were thrown down. The cyclist claims that there was a bike in the path and he swerved to go around it. He didn't move the bike, but left it where it was. One police spokesman has said that the bikes were leaning against the fence. Perhaps the bikes were found lying on the path and police moved them, perhaps the girls left the bikes leaning on the fence and the cyclists sighting is unrelated, perhaps a perp put the bikes there later to completely confuse police. There's just something about the location of the bikes that bothers me ... it seems like a low risk place to abduct children because it's secluded, but it seems like a high risk place because the abductor had to get the children to the end of one of the fences without anyone else coming down the trail.

Keep in mind that psychopaths don't assess risk the same way normal people do.

I've posted about it in these threads before but the nutshell version is that psychopaths have a muted or absent emotional response in anticipation of pain. They feel pain like normal people do but they don't feel the unpleasant dread of it that others feel.

In fact, psychopaths will even take actions that endanger their own lives, just for the fun of it.

So when saying something seems too risky, an important thing to ask yourself is "too risky for whom?"

 

[BunnyHop]

Random stranger guy that Tammy said saw the girls riding their bikes at the lake reported seeing them at 2:30. Also Tammy is quoted stating he saw them riding east and also quoted saying he saw them riding west. We discussed it Thursday or Friday I think. Should be in the last thread. Too hard to find it on my tablet. I have always felt like this witness did not exist.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

I agree. :fence:

 

[iSleuth]

Also, with all the confusion and tightness within the timeline, perhaps the paddleboat was just LE's way of trying to settle how TG could have seen the bikes around 12:30 where they were later found, but someone else thought they saw the girls on their bikes around 2:15.

If one or both claimed to have seen a paddleboater, that could help LE nail down the last time the girls were seen. Having not disclosed much other than "several people came forward with info" (I'm pretty sure we heard that at a PC, did we not?) about the paddleboats, maybe the info they got was inconclusive.

Perhaps there was a runner who saw the bikes, apart from TG. Perhaps TG saw the bikes but that is not where they were found at 4.

When I first heard where the bikes were found, my gut told me they'd been dumped there, only because it is the best-hidden spot on the lake. I figured, if they were taken, they were taken from another spot on the trail, and their bikes were left behind, along with the purse, then some other kids came across them and quickly rode them out of sight to rifle thru the purse. But the TG sighting makes that all but impossible, if it was the girls' bikes, at the location they were found later.

Another thing that bugs me is that gramma felt she'd made it clear that they had to be leaving the Collins home before 1:30. If that was the case, and Lyric knew it, and she'd recently had an episode where the police were called because she was late getting home, why would she still be riding around the lake at 2? Even if they knew the way to the lake, even if they decided at 12:10 to make a quick run to the lake, apparently they were never known to be gone that long, so what made them linger long enough to be spotted riding west at 2? That witness seems the least credible to me, and is the one that, afaik, has not been interviewed in MSM. Ted Gamerdinger was interviewed and presumaby spoke to police (altho we all learned of him thru FB). Robert Carpenter was interviewed more than once, and presumably has spoken to LE. The 2:00 witness, despite Tammy saying that LE knew his name, etc, has not been mentioned anywhere by LE or MSM, yet his sighting seems to be the one used on the Missing Posters.

It bothers me so much that a few days earlier the police were called because Lyric ( and another cousin/friend) were late/ missing.

WTH besides non existent supervision, what was the trend here? -Being late? why??? What else had she been doing lately? I know we have mentioned- " running away" meeting a secret friend and or acquaintance( grooming?), I keep thinking they could have been sneaking off to smoke cigarettes or something "off the beaten track"? do kids make "Forts" these days?

In any scenario they could have encountered any number of perps.

:-(

 

[whittymom4]

Tim Miller TEXAS EQUISEARCH, TES. He has all the equipment needed to find them. Wonder if anyone has contacted him? I know the parents would have to request his services. Maybe I can get in touch with Tim (I helped him in another search, so I have talked to him a few times). I will call...can't hurt right? These girls need to be home getting ready to start school like other children...

 

[whittymom4]

Ollipop said the families were contacted by the Dr. Phil show. (think I read that correctly)

I think Dr. Phil would tear Lyric's mom up! Where is her emotion? I would love to see this happen. It would be huge exposure for the girls!! He has the largest audience in daytime talk shows...plus worldwide exposure!!