IA - Gretchen Crooks, 37, murdered, Osage, 24 March 2012

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I don't know much about early onset schizophrenia deelytful. I've only read about the adult onset because I have a direct family member that suffered from that and wanted to understand.

I did find this for your question above:

http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Helpline1/Early_Onset_Schizophrenia.htm

There are other mental diseases that can lead to agressive and violent acts.

I don't know enough about this case I've only read along what's here. What a tragedy for this family. So sad.
 
It was stated on my local morning news it was the mother he tried to sexually assault

I'll bew back with a link when they put it up on the website
 
From her FB she seems like she was loved by a lot of people! Lots of responses to her posts and she seems like someone I would have liked IRL. And, as a side note: WOW...her hubby had good taste in Valentine's flowers. Gorgeous!

Such a sad story...
 
deelytful1 said:
At what age does schizophrenia rear its ugly head usually? I'm of course hoping it was some kind of mental illness as opposed to him doing this out of pure evil.. :(
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Was he hearing voices?

He could be a fledgling sociopath. It seems to fit his demeanor.

Reminds me somewhat of Joesph Duncan who began to rape children when he was 8 years old. This boy seemed to have picked the easiest target to sexually assault, his mother. And look what happened once Duncan was let out of prison? The mental health professionals said very early on that JED was not treatable and boy were they right!

I suppose now some people will be getting in line not wanting him to do much time at all for his dastardly evil acts because he was 13 years old when he became a murderer and potential rapist.

Schizophrenia nor a Conduct Disorder are classified as mental illnesses under judicial standards. The only thing this kid has to know is right from wrong and I do believe he did know ...he just didnt care and did it anyway.

imo
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Was he hearing voices?

He could be a fledgling sociopath. It seems to fit his demeanor.

Reminds me somewhat of Joesph Duncan who began to rape children when he was 8 years old. This boy seemed to have picked the easiest target to sexually assault, his mother. And look what happened once Duncan was let out of prison? The mental health professionals said very early on that JED was not treatable and boy were they right!

I suppose now some people will be getting in line not wanting him to do much time at all for his dastardly evil acts because he was 13 years old when he became a murderer and potential rapist.

Schizophrenia nor a Conduct Disorder are classified as mental illnesses under judicial standards. The only thing this kid has to know is right from wrong and I do believe he did know ...he just didnt care and did it anyway.

imo
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BBM

I'm one of those who don't like seeing 13 year old's treated like adults after a murder.

But this one is an exception. A child who at 13 is already trying to sexually assault someone, well rapists usually don't change. And a child who trys to rape his mother, that is even worse. Combine that with murdering her, and I don't see much hope for rehabilating him even at his young age.

This does make me wonder about the motive for the murder though. It says he attempted to sexually assault her. So was he unable to follow through, or did she get away from him for a short time? Did he shoot her to keep her from telling? Or out of frustration because he was unable to complete the act?
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-sexually-abuse-her.html?ICO=most_read_module

here is his picture. He's a tiny thing

Charges filed today in Mitchell County District Court further accuse Noah Crooks, an eighth-grader at Osage Middle School, of assault with attempt to commit sexual abuse against his mother.
Shelia Aukes, a licensed social worker in Des Moines who works with young people on a variety of mental health issues told the DesMoines Register: 'The victims in most sex offenses committed by juveniles are siblings, other juveniles or, more rare, other adults.

'A child or adolescent sexually abusing a parent is completely out of the norm, totally unheard of.'
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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tempted-sexually-abuse-her.html#ixzz1qYequG5V
 
This case seems so unreal. But perhaps it did not really come out of the blue. Maybe they kept all of their concerns close to the vest. It seems so very unusual that a 13 yr old with no prior behavioral issues would try to rape his mother and then shoot her with a shotgun and then sit back and call 911, with no signs of remorse. I have to wonder if there were signs but they were ignored or unseen or the family was in denial.
 
katydid23 said:
This case seems so unreal. But perhaps it did not really come out of the blue. Maybe they kept all of their concerns close to the vest. It seems so very unusual that a 13 yr old with no prior behavioral issues would try to rape his mother and then shoot her with a shotgun and then sit back and call 911, with no signs of remorse. I have to wonder if there were signs but they were ignored or unseen or the family was in denial.
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Unfortunately, I have read about numerous cases where the teen perp showed no red flags yet they murdered the parent or parents in cold blood.

I dont believe if these parents had any idea they were raising a potential rapist they would have just sat there and done nothing.

The problem is no matter how someone acts outwardly no one ever knows what is running through their minds. I imagine any secrets kept were the ones he kept to himself.

I have read about other teens raping or trying to rape their mother. I dont think it is as uncommon as we may think. The mothers may never tell anyone because it would be so humiliating and embarassing and they would think it would bring shame to their family.

This mother didn't have a chance to tell. Imo, he murdered her so she couldnt.

IMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Unfortunately, I have read about numerous cases where the teen perp showed no red flags yet they murdered the parent or parents in cold blood.

I dont believe if these parents had any idea they were raising a potential rapist they would have just sat there and done nothing.

The problem is no matter how someone acts outwardly no one ever knows what is running through their minds. I imagine any secrets kept were the ones he kept to himself.

I have read about other teens raping or trying to rape their mother. I dont think it is as uncommon as we may think. The mothers may never tell anyone because it would be so humiliating and embarassing and they would think it would bring shame to their family.

This mother didn't have a chance to tell. Imo, he murdered her so she couldnt.

IMO
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I am not saying that they knew they were raising a potential rapist. I am just saying that there MAY have been some indications that he needed some kind of therapy. And maybe not. But I think sometimes we tend to overlook or ignore some clues to issues like this because it is too overwhelming to deal with.

My family ignored my younger brothers issues until he was way out of control at 18. But up until then my mom tried to cover for him and justify his 'egocentric' behavior. He never raped or killed anyone but he was aggressive and out of his mind at some points later in life.
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Unfortunately, I have read about numerous cases where the teen perp showed no red flags yet they murdered the parent or parents in cold blood.

I dont believe if these parents had any idea they were raising a potential rapist they would have just sat there and done nothing.

The problem is no matter how someone acts outwardly no one ever knows what is running through their minds. I imagine any secrets kept were the ones he kept to himself.

I have read about other teens raping or trying to rape their mother. I dont think it is as uncommon as we may think. The mothers may never tell anyone because it would be so humiliating and embarassing and they would think it would bring shame to their family.

This mother didn't have a chance to tell. Imo, he murdered her so she couldnt.

IMO
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Now, authorities are saying Noah Crooks also tried to sexually abuse his mother, which mental health professionals say they have never encountered among juveniles.

Shelia Aukes, a licensed social worker in Des Moines who works with young people on a variety of mental health issues told the DesMoines Register: 'The victims in most sex offenses committed by juveniles are siblings, other juveniles or, more rare, other adults.
'A child or adolescent sexually abusing a parent is completely out of the norm, totally unheard of.'
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-sexually-abuse-her.html?ICO=most_read_module

A 13 year old? Nah, no way is this not as uncommon as we think. It is very, very uncommon. Very rare. In fact, the only case I have ever heard of was of a fully schizophrenic man, age 23, Michael Miller, who raped and killed his mother in the 80's out here in Calif. I read a book about it.

Raping one's mother is exceedingly rare. For a young teen to do that or try to, is just not something that happens.

I don't know that we can state he is simply sociopathic. Sociopaths are not crazy. They know there are consequences and try to hide the evil they do, at least separate themselves from the crime, so they can get away with it.

The people who coldly call 911 to report such a monstrosity are usually nutso.

But what the heck? If he was psychotic, there must have been a lead-in to it?

Yup, I'm leading towards crazy as a loon. But even crazy doesn't often go this far. I agree with the grandma who stated she lost her daughter and grandson. IMO, a kid who goes this far is so seriously gone that there is little hope of ever coming back and the public should be protected from him for life. Raping and killing one's own mother, or trying to do so, is an unpardonable sin. The perpetrator of such a ghastly act should be removed from society no matter the reason for the act.

I cannot imagine what this family is going through, what the poor husband feels. One day he has a happy family. The next he is part of one of the most infamous Greek tragedies in history. Poor man.
 
gitana1 said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-sexually-abuse-her.html?ICO=most_read_module

A 13 year old? Nah, no way is this not as uncommon as we think. It is very, very uncommon. Very rare. In fact, the only case I have ever heard of was of a fully schizophrenic man, age 23, Michael Miller, who raped and killed his mother in the 80's out here in Calif. I read a book about it.

Raping one's mother is exceedingly rare. For a young teen to do that or try to, is just not something that happens.

I don't know that we can state he is simply sociopathic. Sociopaths are not crazy. They know there are consequences and try to hide the evil they do, at least separate themselves from the crime, so they can get away with it.

The people who coldly call 911 to report such a monstrosity are usually nutso.

But what the heck? If he was psychotic, there must have been a lead-in to it?

Yup, I'm leading towards crazy as a loon. But even crazy doesn't often go this far. I agree with the grandma who stated she lost her daughter and grandson. IMO, a kid who goes this far is so seriously gone that there is little hope of ever coming back and the public should be protected from him for life. Raping and killing one's own mother, or trying to do so, is an unpardonable sin. The perpetrator of such a ghastly act should be removed from society no matter the reason for the act.

I cannot imagine what this family is going through, what the poor husband feels. One day he has a happy family. The next he is part of one of the most infamous Greek tragedies in history. Poor man.
Click to expand...

But really, how do we know that? We know that often when sexual abuse occurs the victim will not tell anyone. I certainly think if a mother was sexually assaulted by her own son she would be the least likely to tell anyone because of the shame and stigma it would bring. So I dont think we can say with 100% certainty that it is uncommon. Uncommonly reported? Absolutely, imo.

The only reason this sexual assault came to light in the first place is because the boy murdered his mother and the police investigated the murder and also found he attempted to sexually assault his mother.

To me it is just like the stats that show one in four girls are abused and one in six boys are abused before they reach the age of 18. The problem with the statistics is only about 10% of them who were sexually abused.. report the sexual abuse.

To me it is no different than a mental health professional getting on tv and stating misinformation that it is rare for women to murder their own children, when in fact mothers murder their children as often as fathers do, and neglect and abuse them even more often that the child's father.

We have no idea actually what goes on in the homes of families across this country, Even if sexually assaulted most remain silent for their own reasons.

IMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
But really, how do we know that? We know that often when sexual abuse occurs the victim will not tell anyone. I certainly think if a mother was sexually assaulted by her own son she would be the least likely to tell anyone because of the shame and stigma it would bring. So I dont think we can say with 100% certainty that it is uncommon. Uncommonly reported? Absolutely, imo.

The only reason this sexual assault came to light in the first place is because the boy murdered his mother and the police investigated the murder and also found he attempted to sexually assault his mother.

To me it is just like the stats that show one in four girls are abused and one in six boys are abused before they reach the age of 18. The problem with the statistics is only about 10% of them who were sexually abused.. report the sexual abuse.

To me it is no different than a mental health professional getting on tv and stating misinformation that it is rare for women to murder their own children, when in fact mothers murder their children as often as fathers do, and neglect and abuse them even more often that the child's father.

We have no idea actually what goes on in the homes of families across this country, Even if sexually assaulted most remain silent for their own reasons.

IMO
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BBM.

I get your point. But here's why I believe it is exceedingly rare for a child or young teen to sexually assault his or her mom. Because sexual assault is about power and control and dominating that which the perp views as weaker. Child molesters pick on kids who are smaller and younger. Rapists generally pick on women who are smaller, or disabled or too old to fight back hard enough. They hate the weakness in themselves and want to harm others who are weak, as a result.

Ans when it comes to kids, children generally view their parents as much more powerful than they are. They may, but also rarely, try to kill in order to eradicate that which they feel is stronger, but sexual assault? When do you hear of a rapist going after someone bigger and stronger than they are?

Also, unless a child has been molested by a parent, or was not raised by the parent as an infant and toddler, the childhood familiarity theory generally prevents the child from viewing his or her parent as a sexual object, past a certain early childhood stage. That theory posits that when a parent and child are intimately involved via child rearing practices like feeding, bathing, dressing, potential sexual attraction disappears. This works for siblings as well, or non-related children raised together, who are collectively cared for, or see each other being cared for, or participate in caring for each other. Thus, dads who are involved in diaper changing, feeding and bathing their babies, are less likely to molest them, two children raised together cannot be attracted to one another and children become disinterested sexually in the parents who provide caregiving to them: http://books.google.com/books?id=OW...#v=onepage&q=hilda and seymour parker&f=false (pg. 179)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1939-0025.1986.tb03486.x/abstract

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sz...ge&q=the childhood familiarity theory&f=false (pg. 51)

http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpress...chunk.id=d0e2307&toc.id=d0e2281&brand=ucpress

As to the BBM part, how do we know this? Isn't it possible the kid confessed to assaulting his mother? I mean, he confessed to killing her.

In sum, I get where you are coming from but I continue to believe that psychologically, such a phenomena is exceedingly rare and would likely usually only occur with adult children who have serious mental issues.
 
What Is an Oedipal Complex?
Definition:
The Oedipal complex is a term used by Sigmund Freud in his theory of psychosexual stages of development to describe a boy's feelings of desire for his mother and jealously and anger towards his father. Essentially, a boy feels like he is in competition with his father for possession of his mother. He views his father as a rival for her attentions and affections.

Understanding the Oedipus Complex
According to Freud, the boy wishes to possess his mother and replace his father, who he views as a rival for his mother's affections. The Oedipal complex occurs in the phallic stage of psychosexual development between the ages of three and five. The phallic stage serves as an important point in the formation of sexual identity. The analogous stage for girls is known as the Electra complex in which girls feel desire for their fathers and jealousy of their mothers.

The term was named after the character in Sophocles' Oedipus Rex who accidentally kills his father and marries his mother.

http://psychology.about.com/od/oindex/g/def_oedipuscomp.htm
 
oceanblueeyes said:
What Is an Oedipal Complex?
Definition:
The Oedipal complex is a term used by Sigmund Freud in his theory of psychosexual stages of development to describe a boy's feelings of desire for his mother and jealously and anger towards his father. Essentially, a boy feels like he is in competition with his father for possession of his mother. He views his father as a rival for her attentions and affections.

Understanding the Oedipus Complex
According to Freud, the boy wishes to possess his mother and replace his father, who he views as a rival for his mother's affections. The Oedipal complex occurs in the phallic stage of psychosexual development between the ages of three and five. The phallic stage serves as an important point in the formation of sexual identity. The analogous stage for girls is known as the Electra complex in which girls feel desire for their fathers and jealousy of their mothers.

The term was named after the character in Sophocles' Oedipus Rex who accidentally kills his father and marries his mother.

http://psychology.about.com/od/oindex/g/def_oedipuscomp.htm
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BBM. Yes, which is why I stated that the childhood familiarity theory generally prevents the child from viewing his or her parent as a sexual object, past a certain early childhood stage. 13 is way past that stage. That's why such a thing is so rare.

Also, when we look at the oedipal complex, the child views the father with rage and has subconscious desires to kill him. Not the mother. Here, mama was the one murdered.
 
peeples said:
http://www.kwwl.com/story/17280367/...ling-mom-charged-with-sexually-assaulting-her
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I can't remember the kid's name, but this immediately reminded me the young red-headed boy that killed a 5 year old. He was also described as very stoic afterwards. It also was very chilling. {{{}}}} He's now in his twenties...and I believe trying to get paroled.

It's pretty rare, but children can develop full blown schizophrenia; but I'll wait for more info because like someone else mentions, there are other mental issues and other "motives" possible.

This is frightening and the whole family must be in shock.
 
hollyblue said:
I can't remember the kid's name, but this immediately reminded me the young red-headed boy that killed a 5 year old. He was also described as very stoic afterwards. It also was very chilling. {{{}}}} He's now in his twenties...and I believe trying to get paroled.

It's pretty rare, but children can develop full blown schizophrenia; but I'll wait for more info because like someone else mentions, there are other mental issues and other "motives" possible.

This is frightening and the whole family must be in shock.
Click to expand...


Eric Smith.He's like a Michael Myers to me.There is absolutely no soul behind those dead eyes.The sad part is that one day he will be released into society.
 
Heartbreaking and terrifying are the only words I can think of for this story. I can't imagine the despair the father/husband must feel.
 
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