IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What if no ring / No conspiracy?

[loganone]

Prior to the site being taken off line, had you gone there a couple of weeks ago, you would have seen this pic and other ones like it.

Although I did not spend much time on that site, I don't remember seeing this newest pic on there.

Granted.. I didn't spend much time on the site

But what i do remember is several photos with boys tied in the same manner and with the same type of gag. What got my attention is the way the legs were tied. In all the photos they are tied exactly the same. Both legs wrapped then tied together. I thought it rather odd.

Also alot of the photos where from movies where children were tied up. The gallery were these photos were found was called "Boys tied up from Movies and TV" or something to that manner.

If you take the time, and really want to see what was on that website, you could use the way back machine and visit the archived verison of the site. BUT I warn you, although I saw no "*advertiser censored*" photos, the photos are rather disturbing

 

[Insguru]

I saw it on Noreen Gosch's website and I'm pretty sure that it referenced the jacobstales web site as the source. If not then I must have read it hear. her site is www.johnnygosch.com

All,

I went back and carefully read her website statement regarding the new picture. It did not come from Jacobstails. She clearly says that the FBI, etc., is not investigating that website where the "first" picture was found. (I'
ve paraphrased this).

It makes no reference as to where the second one came from.

It would be nice to know this as well as know if this has been turned over to LE, as it is further evidence of this crime (assuming of course its him).

William do you want to tackle this??

 

[Eisbar]

I just went to the site www.jacobstales.com and looked at their forums because the pic. have been disabled. (gross) If this is not a man-boy love site then I dont know what is. Why is this still on the net. I could see a child visiting this site and being sucked in to this. It is very distrubing. Is LE doing anything about it at all. By now I'm sure that they know about it. I would think that they would want to track down all of the posters and see what they have been up to.
If Dateline gets SOOOOOOO many hits to a house in their "To Catch a Predator" series, I can only imagine what could be accomplished if they set up a sting on this. Does any one have contact with media folks or the Perverted Justice people. They might be REAL interested in this. Just an idea........

Is it me or is the world geting more and more perverted?

 

[William R Thomas]

All,

I went back and carefully read her website statement regarding the new picture. It did not come from Jacobstails. She clearly says that the FBI, etc., is not investigating that website where the "first" picture was found. (I'
ve paraphrased this).

It makes no reference as to where the second one came from.

It would be nice to know this as well as know if this has been turned over to LE, as it is further evidence of this crime (assuming of course its him).

William do you want to tackle this??

I didn't think I was allowed on this thread...

I got what you got. Noreen has been REALLY absent for the last few days. It's like she dropped off the face of the earth. I have nothing to add right now, with regards to the latest photos. I believe she got this photo after our last conversation, which was over a week ago. And she is sincere [in her belief] with her comments about LE doing nothing. Is it true? Hard to say.

I might let the cat out of the bag at this point over on the other thread. At this point, I hope this is the work of one random guy, it would just make my life easier at this point. (Please take that last statement in context)

BUT, as I said, I got nothing on these photos.



Oh yeah, if you wanna get a real taste of what your dealing with, forget the photo archives on jacobstales and check out the links section, and see where that takes you.

 

[William R Thomas]

Good point.........why now? And why would she care if she already knows he is alive and what was done to him and why he cant come home. I guess it is to catch the perp but thats like looking for a needle in a haystack.

She wants her motherhood back. She wants the person who took what was hers by right, that which is the right of every mother, to watch, and nuture, and enjoy your children grow and prosper, she wants them to burn for taking that away from her.

Pretty simple.

 

[docwho3]

The last thing I heard or read in MSM of the pics of the three boys and the one black and white pic of a boy, was that they were pretty much discredited. Did I miss something or has new more credible info come to light to validate (in the eyes of L.E.) those pics or any later pics bing discussed as being johnny gosch?

Or are we looking at the pics just to try and learn more about them for curiosity sake?

 

[kawika]

Note: I shortened the quote of your material to save space. I hope you don't mind.

Just looking at this one post of yours, you seem like a compassionate and intelligent person who does not like to jump to conclusions about people. I think that is a good thing. I think that what has bothered some of us (although I can only speak for myself) about the apparent silence of some family, such as the father, in this case is that we are comparing the behavior in our minds with our admittedly limited knowledge of other cases we have read about on websleuths (and other places) and/or have seen on the news and the behavior, at least early on in the case and perhaps some later as well, seems different than what usually happenes when someone is innocent.

That having been said, I always look for actual evidence before making a final judgement as to what I personally believe happened. So if I express concern about how the family has acted it does not mean I am basing my personal judgment of their truthfullness or guilty involvement solely on that, but it is one of those things that may be a red flag to me that may make me want to look closer.

In this case, for me, the silence of the father both early in the case and later raises a red flag that something is not right. That silence does not mean he did anything but it raises the possibility that he knows something about the case that he finds upsetting enough to cause him to remain silent. Maybe he suspects the wife did it but can't bear to tell it or thinks it would not be wise for the investigations sake. . . or maybe he knows she did it instead of just suspecting and did not tell it or even helped cover it up and so can't tell now without gettng himself put on trial or maybe he just thinks she is mentally ill and does not want to say anything bad about her even though they have divorced (a rare form of chivalry these days) or maybe he did something to the boy himself or maybe he was just abusive and Johnny ran away and he doesn't want that all drug up in the media if he opens his mouth too much or maybe he feels guilty for not having prevented the disappearance but those are all maybes and with caring people like you on the thread I know we are much less likely to jump to conclusions from those maybes without evidence.

Thanks for your kind and generous response. (Apologies for my tardiness in replying...recently I've not on-line too much.) And of course it is a fine line one has to walk. On one hand (and I'm not suggesting you or anyone here has done this) I think it can be too free and easy, in the (seeming) anonymity of cyberspace, to publicly speculate about a parent whose child has disappeared, based on the parent's behavior, especially years later.

(I do believe they remained married for 10-11 years afterwards, and, and this is just a guess, I imagine the divorce rate for couples who've gone through something like this is astronomical. Was he really that silent from the begining?)

However, I certainly agree it is reasonable to look at the family and one can avoid jumping to conclusions without being naive, either, when discussing a missing child. As David Simon so succinctly put it (though this isn't a murder investigation): 'Homicide work offers no respite from cynical thoughts, and only with reluctance does a detective delete the nearest and dearest from his list of suspects.'

 

[2sisters]

this may have been coverd already, if so i apologize. Was Johnny and only child or are there other siblings?

 

[HeartofTexas]

There are two siblings... a brother and a sister, both older I believe.

 

[2sisters]

There are two siblings... a brother and a sister, both older I believe.

Ok so where are they? We haven't heard a thing out of them so I wonder what is their take on this? Does anyone know anythig about them?

 

[Franklinfiles]

I think it is at least important to consider what Noreen herself is on the record as saying. Obviously as Johnny's mother who has made finding Johnny the defining point to her life, she is going to be the most informed of anyone on this subject matter.

It would seem to me that any thorough investigation should start with what Noreen already knows.

Here is a good place to start:

http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25003/archives_2004/MOM20050414.wma/play.asx

I must admit, it does seem a bit silly to me that the person (Noreen Gosch) who has the greatest motivation to find her son and to discover the facts surrounding her son's abuction would lie about any of what she has said. What would she have to gain by lying about any of this?

Fame? Most of Noreen's interviews with "respectable" media, leave the hosts making snide inuendo's.

Fortune? Noreen is the assistant manager of a retail establishment in Iowa.

Book Deal? Noreen wrote her story and published the book herself.

The Recent Photos

In a recent email exchange that I had with Noreen, she stated a really obvious point, "Would your mother recognize a photo of you at 12 yrs. old?" The answer here is yes.

I will make the point here again. That after 24 years of being emmersed in this story, Noreen is not a naieve little woman who gets taken advantage of by everyone she meets. She has invested lots of time and money to find the answers about Johnny.

She has learned more than she ever wanted to know, many have come in her life that "wanted to help her" and after all have gone, she still continues to do what she can to find answers about Johnny.

I guess my point in all of this, to disregard what Johnny's mother is saying just seems a bit pointless. Why not start investigating the parts of Noreen's story that can be verified. Believe it or not, much of it can be!

Disclaimer: This post is not an attack.

 

[docwho3]

First let me say that in response to your disclaimer in your post: I think your post was polite and did not think it an attack in any way. Whether I agree with all points or not I think your post was repectful of all readers and serious and I respect that.

I think it is at least important to consider what Noreen herself is on the record as saying. Obviously as Johnny's mother who has made finding Johnny the defining point to her life, she is going to be the most informed of anyone on this subject matter. . .

All family start on the suspect list in the disappearance of a child and remain there until they can be ruled out. I don't hate noreen or the father either but I follow that rule and so far I have been unable to remove them from the suspect list.

Now we come to why to believe noreen (or any person involved in the case) or to not believe. I always ask if there is any reason reported in MSM to not believe a person in the case. I find that several people have credibility problems in MSM (Main Stream Media). Noreen's own husband in news print has expressed doubts that the midnight visit (late night) with her long lost son ever took place. That places doubt on her other words about the kidnapping of her son as well.

We know that at least one of the pics that she has said were given to her (one pic allegedly showing her son) had a pic that was tampered with to make it black and white from colored and to add a tattoo brand that was not there originally. And, to me, that casts doubt on her word as identifying her son in one of the pics. Also the father and siblings of johnny have not identified in MSM their johnny as being in any of the pics and, to me, that casts doubt on noreens word.

Do parents sometimes lie about what happened to their child? Yes, of course they do. Just read websleuths cases to see what I mean. Often parents who are involved in the disappearance of a child lie and sometimes they lie to keep some other embarrassing things from being uncovered in the investigation and sometimes they think their kid just ran away but want the thing to appear as a crime so the L.E. will continue to investigate instead of requiring them to find their own child. All those options have been seen in websleuths cases but I can't say I have yet read where an innocent parent went nuts from the stress of having the child go missing and told lies because of it. It may well happen but I have not yet read of it in all the many cases I have read since before I joined to be able to post. Do I believe noreen lied? I think it highly likely based on the doubts that were cast as mentioned above but, personally, I can't yet stamp a verdict on it without more evidence. I just cannot easily use her or her website as a good reliable source of info in this case.

Do others have credibility issues? Yes they do but I don't want to say things in this post just to get the conspiracy people up in arms so I will stop with what I have already pointed out for now.

Let me take a moment to propose an idea.
I am in favor of all aspects of the case having a thread to be discussed, whether I agree with all of the thread premises or not. I think we all should together ask for this case to be made featured or spotlight so it can have multiple threads for us to look at this complex case from all angles. I think there should be a thread about the pics and who is in them and who is distributing them and who is altering some of them. I think there should be several different conspiracy threads for all the different theories of conspiracy and pedo rings and private versus govt. involvement. I just also want this thread for the nonconspiracy premise so all aspects of that can be looked at and maybe we need a serial killer theory thread and a neighbor gone wild thread and a runaway boy thread just to look at all aspects of the case. I am sure people can think of more possibilities for thread discussions than I can.

Lastly, I think that if we ever get the multi thread case status we should remember to not go onto a competing theory thread just to argue against it or to respond to something in their thread that we think was said that was bad about our own theory.

That's my thoughts and no offense meant to anyone.

 

[Insguru]

Good points Doc and Franklin. I think as we stay focused on the intent of this forum, we may need to, from time to time, mention other aspects of this "case" but we can do that without going off topic.

For instance, if he is still alive (which we have no evidence of), that does not necessarily detour from this forum's objective of discussing his disappearance if a "c" was not involved.

I keep hoping there might be some break in the case given the recent news stories. I hope that someone somewhere might remember something or be compelled to come forward with new information about the abduction/disappearance. I hope we can discuss any legitimate new information/evidence that comes to light here.

I'd (and probably all of us) would like to somehow, some day, determine who the actual perp is in all of this. The actual individual (or two) that physically caused his disappearance. I think then we could put all other questions to rest (or seemingly so). Until that day comes, I'd settle for the location of where he is, whether a cornfield in Iowa or some other far away local. I don't need to tie up all loose ends, but I sure would love to see something happen and get at least part of this mystery solved.

 

[Franklinfiles]

Noreen's husband has no credibility in the case. Essentially what transpired here is that Noreen's husband had been parading around to various depositions and lead intervies with another woman masquerading as Noreen Gosch.

She found this out by a mere fluke and this lead to the revelation that he was hiding alot of information from her. This story is verified in that John DeCamp, Paul Bonacci, the Pyschologist who evaluated Bonacci as well as other's were all shocked when they met the real Noreen.

At the very least, this lead Noreen to suspect that he was withholding valuable information form here and was operating in deception. At the very worst, he could be involved in the crime himself, as outlandish as that may sound.

 

[Insguru]

Noreen's husband has no credibility in the case. Essentially what transpired here is that Noreen's husband had been parading around to various depositions and lead intervies with another woman masquerading as Noreen Gosch.

She found this out by a mere fluke and this lead to the revelation that he was hiding alot of information from her. This story is verified in that John DeCamp, Paul Bonacci, the Pyschologist who evaluated Bonacci as well as other's were all shocked when they met the real Noreen.

At the very least, this lead Noreen to suspect that he was withholding valuable information form here and was operating in deception. At the very worst, he could be involved in the crime himself, as outlandish as that may sound.

As we all know, most of these things tend to involve either family members or someone who was/is known by the victim. Not always, every day we see stories of violence that were random acts, but the percentage is very high.

I don't think, as shocking as it may be, that any of us on here would be truely shocked by such a revelation, should it ever be proved or come to light that hs is a suspect (where is that Police file?????? We need it).

We just have no proof of anything at the moment, other than the one sentence that sticks in all of our minds. A boy disappeared leaving his wagon full of newspapers and his dog to come home alone. But if that sentence is in fact true, then he must have gone out with the wagon, leaving me to believe that someone other than dad got him. Could have been set up by dad, but I don't think he was the one that actually left with him. And if these pics end up being proven to be him, then I would discount the dad's involvement. I mean that wouldn't make any sense, kidnap your own son, have pics taken of him, and then ..... doesn't make any sense. Would be nice to get our hands around the authenticity of the pics. I think they could lead us down wrong trails if not real.

I need to keep things simple, and if the pics are real, then its possible that a local pedo grabbed him and we should be searching for someone with the opportunity, we would know the motive, and ability. Someone out there knows.

 

[2sisters]

Noreen's husband has no credibility in the case. Essentially what transpired here is that Noreen's husband had been parading around to various depositions and lead intervies with another woman masquerading as Noreen Gosch.

She found this out by a mere fluke and this lead to the revelation that he was hiding alot of information from her. This story is verified in that John DeCamp, Paul Bonacci, the Pyschologist who evaluated Bonacci as well as other's were all shocked when they met the real Noreen.

At the very least, this lead Noreen to suspect that he was withholding valuable information form here and was operating in deception. At the very worst, he could be involved in the crime himself, as outlandish as that may sound.

But many also feel that Noreen has no credibility. i mean come on, now there are Noreen impostors? To be perfectly honest, neither parents are very credible to me. What info was mr. Gosch hiding? are you accusing him of being in on the "pedo ring" and orchestrating this who thing?

 

[2sisters]

all of this energy is being focused on this government run pedophile operation but why? i am sorry to say but i just don't think it is likely. Johnny has more that likely been dead since his abduction and all anyone cares about it this pedo ring and all these years a child killer has walked free b/c everyone is looking for an imaginary child pornagrahy ring. Can we please get this thread back to the abduction of jonny gosch and put the conspracy theories on another thread b/c it is taking focus off of Johnny Gosch.

 

[Lurker Steve]

I must admit, it does seem a bit silly to me that the person (Noreen Gosch) who has the greatest motivation to find her son and to discover the facts surrounding her son's abuction would lie about any of what she has said. What would she have to gain by lying about any of this?

Deflection about her involvement in her son's disappearance?

When she sends people off hunting for pedophine rings, government conspiracies, etc., they're not looking at HER as a suspect.

For those of us who think she's just a crackpot, again, we're not really looking at HER. Her husband, maybe. But not Noreen.

Noreen is, after all, one of the few people who knew that Johnny wasn't with his father that morning.

 

[kawika]

Just playing Devil's Advocate, and please note I'm on the record as saying dismissing anyone inside the house ias a suspect is foolish.

However. I'd guess (and no I'm not looking at DOJ crime statistics or anything) I'd guess that while most child murders (under 12) are perpetrated by *loved ones*, most (vast majority?) of these cases, especially when it begins as a missing persons report, are of children under 5. Is there any evidence (or even rumor) of neglect or abuse in the household? I'd imagine that most children who get killed by a biological parent don't live happy, care-free lives up until that point. And frankly, most parents capable of killing their children don't allow their kids to reach Johnny's age (save for 'family ahnilator' situations, which is irrelevant in this case) in the first place.

Anything's possible but instances of a parent with no prior warning signals suddenly snapping after eleven years (and two previous kids), killing their child and then being cold and calculating enough to hide the body where no-one will find it and then withstanding the police and media scrutiny have got to be even more rare than a stranger abduction. It's not that one says 'How could you think that of a parent?' but more like, 'This family, this crime, doesn't fit the broad outlines of a biological parent beeing responsible for the death/disappearance of their child.'

My $.02, anyway.

 

[inquiringmindz]

But many also feel that Noreen has no credibility. i mean come on, now there are Noreen impostors? To be perfectly honest, neither parents are very credible to me. What info was mr. Gosch hiding? are you accusing him of being in on the "pedo ring" and orchestrating this who thing?

If you read NG's book, she has a photograph of the imposter with her husband. You can tell it is an imposter - same style hairdo and looks kind of like her but you can definitely tell it isn't her by comparing the photos. Who knows what Mr. Gosch is hiding because he definitely hasn't said too much.