IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What if no ring / No conspiracy?

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H.o.T. and William,
I will be very sad to see you both go but I do understand why. I've enjoyed your posts and insight. I too am thinking about not posting on this subject anymore on WS as it makes my blood pressure rise :furious: . The good part is, I believe in my own opinions and no one can take that away.
 
....after what LE has said about the photos...I understand that....

What I do not understand is both of your uptightness about stating that someone's actions are due, in part to mental illness. Mental illness does NOT equate with "bad" any more than saying that someone who has heart disease or diabetes or arthiritis is "bad"... Frankly, your views of mental illness are medieval, at best...That being said, mental illness and its impact on a person's actions cannot be ignored. I think that Jeana would agree with this.

It seems that Noreen Gosch is a very well-meanng person, and certainly, she has fought for children's rights. She is certainly not a "bad person"...

However, the story she has spun about her son's disappearance defies all logic and common sense. Certainly her poor child was kidnapped, and in all probability, murdered. This is horrible, barbaric and inexcusable. Psychologists have studied something they call "resilience..." Some folks like the Wetterlings are very resilient (also Marc Klaas and John and Revee Walsh, for example, and Jessica Lusford's father...), and are able to, after a certain point face "head on" what happened to their child, and to try to channel their energy, anger and grief into doing good for others. Noreen Gosch has done some of this, yes....But she also has used up a trmendous amount of her energy spinning a really improbable story about her son. This is due to her emotional fragility, and she would really, really, benefit, as I have said before speaking to someone like Patty Wetterling about her situation, as well as from some therapy.

HOTexas - your heart is in the right place; perhaps you could petition the governor of Iowa to reopen this case starting from "scratch", for example looking at known or possible offenders in the area who were overlooked at the time. This kind of work can pay off. In the Donna Mraz cold case I posted about on here, the police finally got a break and they know who their perp most likely is; now, unfortunately, they cannot find him....but they've pretty much cracked the case.

William....Underneath it all, I think your heart is in the right place too... I really think you feel for Noreen Gosch and her plight. However, I really do not understand your anger vis a vis mental illness, and how you almost don't want the phrase mentioned...I don't get that, really...That's how people used to be about not only mental illness, but things like cancer as well...I am so glad that society has come so far in now being able to openly talk about these things.

I think that Noreen Gosch, given the horrific way in which she lost her son, and with the disintegration of her marriage, felt she lost everything. Her behavior is classic as a person with PTSD and the other disorders mentioned here... I have this gut feeling that the person who did this to Johnny lived and still may live in the area, and perhaps folks should try to get this guy before he dies, rather than focusing on the more amazing scenario that involves almost everyone in the United States Federal Govenrment trafficking in children, doncha think?

(...psssst...you guys can go on as "guests" and check out these posts even though you've decided to "leave" for a while..)
 
cappuccina said:
....after what LE has said about the photos...I understand that....

What I do not understand is both of your uptightness about stating that someone's actions are due, in part to mental illness. Mental illness does NOT equate with "bad" any more than saying that someone who has heart disease or diabetes or arthiritis is "bad"... Frankly, your views of mental illness are medieval, at best...That being said, mental illness and its impact on a person's actions cannot be ignored. I think that Jeana would agree with this.

It seems that Noreen Gosch is a very well-meanng preson, and certainly, she has fought for children's rights. She is certainly not a "bad person"...

However, the story she has spun about her son's disappearance defies all logic and common sense. Certainly her poor child was kidnapped, and in all probability, murdered. This is horrible, barbaric and inexcusable. Psychologists have studied something they call "resilience..." Some folks like the Wetterlings are very resilient (also Marc Klaas and John and Revee Walsh, for example, and Jessica Lusford's father...), and are able to, after a certain point face "head on" what happened to their child, and to try to channel their energy, anger and grief into doing good for others. Noreen Gosch has done some of this, yes....But she also has used up a trmendous amount of her energy spinning a really improbable story about her son. This is due to her emotional fragility, and she would really, really, benefit, as I have said before speaking to someone like Patty Wetterling about her situation, as well as from some therapy.

HOTexas - your heart is in the right place; perhaps you could petition the governor of Iowa to reopen this case starting from "scratch", for example looking at known or possible offenders in the area who were overlooked at the time. This kind of work can pay off. In the Donna Mraz cold case I posted about on here, the police finally got a break and they know who their perp most likely is; now, unfortunately, they cannot find him....but they've pretty much cracked the case.

William....Underneath it all, I think your heart is in the right place too... I really think you feel for Noreen Gosch and her plight. However, I really do not understand your anger vis a vis mental illness, and how you almost don't want the phrase mentioned...I don't get that, really...That's how people used to be about not only mental illness, but things like cancer as well...I am so glad that society has come so far in now being able to openly talk about these things.

I think that Noreen Gosch, given the horrific way in which she lost her son, and with the disintegration of her marriage, felt she lost everything. Her behavior is classic as a person with PTSD and the other disorders mentioned here... I have this gut feeling that the person who did this to Johnny lived and still may live in the area, and perhaps folks should try to get this guy before he dies, rather than focusing on the more amazing scenario that involves almost everyone in the United States Federal Govenrment trafficking in children, doncha think?

(...psssst...you guys can go on as "guests" and check out these posts even though you've decided to "leave" for a while..)
This (meaning your post and attitude) would be exactly the reason people decide to leave or take the option not to post and continue to read. Not because of what LE says about the photos.
 
I'll hate to see everyone go. William was a real contributor and I'll miss his insight. I do think he has a great deal and i"ll look forward to the big news in this case as he mentioned recently.

Look, all Noreen has to say about her take on the pics, is identify the other two missing kids (she spoke to the parents and they are still missing - according to her latest letter on her foundation site). That simple act of identification would cut right through the argument here (at least this argument) and prove that they are missing and Johnny is one of the three, and that LE is part of the "C."

So, I will wait on the disclosure of the two "missing" kids in the pics. As for the two pics showing the boy in sweats, I'm on the fence. I think it might be.

William, if your still out there, and others who speak to her on occassion, you might find out the names of the missing boys who's parents she spoke to. I mean that sincerely, I want to know who they are.

Lets get on with sleuthing the case.
 
I think the reason people are focused so strongly on Noreen is that a great deal of information about this case comes from her. In order to decided if that information is credible you have to evluate the source-her motives, her intentions, and yes, her mental health. Noreen is absolutely a victim in this case but she is also one of the players. I'm not implying that she had anything to do with Johnny's abduction, only that she professes to have information relevant to the case. If we are going to consider the information she brings to the table then we have to evaluate it's credibility. This of course should be done with as much respect and compassion as we can offer-I believe that whetherwe find Noreen credible or not she believes she is acting in good faith and in the best interests of her son.
 
Insguru said:
Lets get on with sleuthing the case.
That is exactly what has been missing on this forum. Thank you for stating it.

HoT: I hope that you know how much I respect your abilities and am grateful for your hardwork and insights on the case of Anna Christian Waters. I am sorry that your talents will no longer be available her on the Gosch case, but respect that this decision was not made lightly and that you feel that it would be in the best interest of all if you bow out.

William: No one doubts your passion and dedication to the Gosch case - I just wish that passion would not sometimes overshadow your civility when discussing the issues. Your "goodbye" post was a very articulate and reasoned essay. Unfortunately, you followed up with your "G.F.Y., Cap" post which demonstrated why Jeanna has had to watch these discussions like a hawk. It should be possible to discuss any issue here like adults without name calling and insults. I am saddened that you do not realize this.

Cappuccina: Your post addressing the importance of NG's state of mind was a well-reasoned defense of why you take the position that you do. However, you hurt your case by the opening statement that HoT and William are leaving because LE have discounted the pictures. That insinuated that these two posters were running away from the forum because they could no longer defend their positions - I do not believe that is their motivation at all. This was, like some of the posts of William's that I found objectional, unnecessarily confrontational.

If we all stick to the facts of the case and learn to heartily debate the interpetations of those facts, we can be both productive and enjoy our work.
 
JusticeForAll said:
Here is the latest update for the Johnny Gosch Foundation:
http://www.johnnygosch.com/
I am not sure what to make of this new NG post. It helps lend creedence to her statements concerning the photo that the other mother is willing to be identified, but the boy was abducted three years after JG's disappearance. Does the boy ID'd as JG look three years older than the last known pictures of Johnny?
 
cappuccina said:
...Patricia Johnson-Holm, and there are quie a few entries with things she's involved with...
Oh, Lordy, Lordy. This is an interesting twist...

Is Noreen being used again?
 
cappuccina said:
...Patricia Johnson-Holm, and there are quie a few entries with things she's involved with...
Some particularly noteworthy quotes:

"What is hidden the most, is the REAL reason for ROSWELL. That is the
work of the ****8****. This work IF done is the key to NOT letting
civilization collapse for 'common' person. Instructions to implement
this work can be found repeatedly in the Crop Drawings. Now you know
why certain powermongers don't want you to know about Roswell or the
Crop Drawings. Not only does the information from the drawings give us
back the Free Energy we should have been using all along but gives us
the formula, if you will, for our FREEDOM from those very same
powermongers.
Patricia Johnson-Holm "

"Public Access Television programs thatcan be viewed by Webcast or cable TV in the Seattle area on cable channel 77 live such as at 9:00 PM Pacific Coast time that is our flag ship show "Call4Investigation" host by Patricia Johnson-Holm, Mike Shupe, Will Wilson, Del Rosario, and Don Braun. Mike Shupe produces a program that appears at: 4:30 PM PST on Fridays as well that the other four parties also appear on.Patricia Johnson-Holm has been a target of extreme fraud and criminal targeting by the Northwest Elitist orchestrated bureaucracy like Will Wilson, Mike Shupe and Del Rosario the Boeing Whistle Blower Qui Tam. All have been through literally gangster style governmental targeting including threats on their lives and much more"

I suspect we will be told that Ms Johnson-Holm's son is not listed as missing because "THEY" (the BIG "they") were "in on it" and hence the report was suppressed.

Some people just 'get off' on claiming to possess secret, hidden knowledge.
It's really a very common way that people attempt to make themselves "special".
 
Dr. Doogie said:
Oh, Lordy, Lordy. This is an interesting twist...

Is Noreen being used again?
So am I correct in this person being linked to UFO's among other more out there things?

. . .Seattle hotel is landing site for UFO conference
... "Exactly," said one of the attendees, Patricia Johnson-Holm . . .
. . .
"Exactly," said one of the attendees, Patricia Johnson-Holm of Seattle. "Some of them don't on purpose. Some of the speakers are the wrong speakers on purpose."

Punctuating her sentences with raised eyebrows and knowing glances, Johnson-Holm rattled off dates and numbers. She touched on the link between a specific Bible verse and Feb. 1, 2003, the day the space shuttle Columbia exploded. Much of this, she explained, would have been understood by examining a crop circle in the United Kingdom.

"They all fit together in ways you never expect," she said.

. . .
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/123468_ufocopy24.html

If this is an example noreens proof people for her latest claims I think we can safely move on to the more normal type of things this thread was created to look at as to the causes of johnny's disappearance.
 
cappuccina said:
...Patricia Johnson-Holm, and there are quie a few entries with things she's involved with...
nerver thought to look her up, she seems, interesting. I find it odd that her son dissappears, nothing is ever said of him, picturtes show up, found to be a hoax, the picture makes national news years later, her son is in it and she never comes forward and say "hey, thats my son with Johnny Gosch", the picture once again is said to be a hoax and she STILL keeps quiet. Sadly, I think someone with alterior motives is out to get her again. Can these jackals just leave her be, someone needs to help this woman find her son, leading her on wild goose chases isn't helping her mentally and it won't help bring Johnny home.
 
docwho3 said:
So am I correct in this person being linked to UFO's among other more out there things?
It appears so - UFO's, Militia's and the "Patriot" Movement, etc. The "other mother" is farther out there than Noreen.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/123468_ufocopy24.html

docwho3 said:
If this is an example noreens proof people for her latest claims I think we can safely move on to the more normal type of things this thread was created to look at as to the causes of johnny's disappearance.
I tend to agree. The whole picture controversy suddenly looks a lot less likely.
 
After all these seemingly false and misleading pieces of info from Johnny's mother I am wondering if this is just some poor demented person or, keeping in mind that parents are often involved in the disappearance of a child, does she have some dark and valid reason and thus feel an intense need for trying to keep people thinking that A. johnny is alive somewhere- so it does not become a murder investigation because the books never close on murder and B. That he was kidnapped so people will not look so close to see if those nearer to him were involved.

I am not accusing her but I am asking the question of why all this wild stuff is continually being put out by someone that I personally cannot find a way to remove from the suspect list concerning her son's disappearance.
At the very least it is a sad thing and at worst a very dark thing.

I also keep wondering when did johnny really disappear and where was noreen and or hubby at that moment? Maybe it would prove helpful to reinterview all involved (those still living) in last seeing him to find if anything new shakes out even if that new something would clear the parents. The point would be to find the truth and find out what really happened to Johnny.
 
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