IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What if no ring / No conspiracy?

[Roy Harrold]

Docwho3 asks: "why all this wild stuff"?

I think, if you review my post #65 in this thread and combine that with the "I know things that no one else knows and that makes me special & important" motivation you'll come close to the truth. "The wild stuff" is also a good vehicle for vengeance - people who the conspiracist dislikes become villians in their theory.

Ms Gosch's heroic efforts to promote the passage of the very important "Johnny Gosch bill" excludes her from the suspect list, in my view. Nor do I believe she is "a nut".
I think she is quite sane, and intelligent.

 

[docwho3]

. . .Ms Gosch's heroic efforts to promote the passage of the very important "Johnny Gosch bill" excludes her from the suspect list, in my view. Nor do I believe she is "a nut".
I think she is quite sane, and intelligent.

Good deeds done after the fact should never exclude someone from the suspect list, only evidence should do that.

As to your other point about her being sane but vengeful, I have my doubts but I respect that others may see things differently and appreciate the input.

 

[kcksum]

Good deeds done after the fact should never exclude someone from the suspect list, only evidence should do that.

As to your other point about her being sane but vengeful, I have my doubts but I respect that others may see things differently and appreciate the input.

I agree Doc, many evil and guilty people have done good things after the fact to take the focus off of themselves.
However,I personally believe Noreen has just gone plain mad in the after math of losing her son. I think it is easier for her to believe that the nation is against her in a full fledged government conspiracy, than it is to believe that a freak got a hold of her son and murdered him in an terrible way. As long as she can hold on to theories and ideas and beliefs that he is out there alive some where, she doesn't have to sit at home and ponder the most probable truth, that he didn't live 24 hours past his abduction. Those pictures aren't Johnny Gosch, and this freak of a woman who claims her son is in the photo is probably a schizophrenic who is interested in interjecting herself into the latest greatest conspiracy theory. I would dare to say law enforcement will be knocking on her door real soon to find out why she never reported her teenage son missing in the first place. They want us to believe that the boy on the far right who looks younger than the boy in the middle, was older and had been abducted 3 years before. It isn't probable, the pictures don't support that, and my heart bleeds for this woman who has gone crazy trying to prove her son didn't die at the hands of a predator.
I am not sure that given the same situation I wouldn't behave the same way. Anything would be better to entertain than finally realizing that my son may have been murdered.It's so sad.

 

[Becba]

I've seen grief turn a person delusional first hand. A person close to me started coming up with wild stories years after going thru the trauma of losing two relatives. It was almost as if this person would dream and then tell the dreams believing they really happened, even though others knew it was impossible. They complained of harrassing phone calls and even a child coming to play at their house during the night. It so happens the house is always locked up with bars over the windows and no child could be coming over in the middle of the night to play. Especially with other people in the house at the time.

I sometimes wonder if Noreen has gotten delusional over the years. I have no doubt she beleives Johnny came to see her. As far as the photos left on her doorstep, I think it is very likely a person might resort to faking an evidence trail when they have been scoffed at for what they think is true. It could be as simple as her finding the pics online and thinking they were related to her sons disappearance and then pretending someone left them for her so she could be taken seriously.

 

[kcksum]

I've seen grief turn a person delusional first hand. A person close to me started coming up with wild stories years after going thru the trauma of losing two relatives. It was almost as if this person would dream and then tell the dreams believing they really happened, even though others knew it was impossible. They complained of harrassing phone calls and even a child coming to play at their house during the night. It so happens the house is always locked up with bars over the windows and no child could be coming over in the middle of the night to play. Especially with other people in the house at the time.

I sometimes wonder if Noreen has gotten delusional over the years. I have no doubt she beleives Johnny came to see her. As far as the photos left on her doorstep, I think it is very likely a person might resort to faking an evidence trail when they have been scoffed at for what they think is true. It could be as simple as her finding the pics online and thinking they were related to her sons disappearance and then pretending someone left them for her so she could be taken seriously.

I couldn't have said it better myself. There are so many people who have basically ruined or staked their careers on this whole franklin cover up fiasco and Bohemian grove theory. We have even met some of these people here and they take what they believe to be true very seriously.
I have wondered the same thing, if someone who had staked their life on this case planted those photo's (which have been proven doctored) in order to bolster their theory of a huge government -pedophile- child trafficking -industry. They saw the pictures resembled Johnny a bit and ran with it.
Poor Lady.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Good deeds done after the fact should never exclude someone from the suspect list, only evidence should do that.

Quite true! That's why I qualified my statement as "in my view". It's just an opinion.

I can see starting something like the "Johnny Gosch bill" as a cover, much like a perp participating in the search for their own victim, but I can't see sustaining that effort all the way - seeing it through to fruition. That's too much work, just for "looks". Again, in my opinion.

 

[Mr. E]

I couldn't have said it better myself. There are so many people who have basically ruined or staked their careers on this whole franklin cover up fiasco and Bohemian grove theory. We have even met some of these people here and they take what they believe to be true very seriously.
I have wondered the same thing, if someone who had staked their life on this case planted those photo's (which have been proven doctored) in order to bolster their theory of a huge government -pedophile- child trafficking -industry. They saw the pictures resembled Johnny a bit and ran with it. Poor Lady.

Let me just get this straight. The only doctored photos were the single photos of Johnny, right? The one that showed a brand on his arm, a brand that was placed there digitally. The photo of the three boys wasn't doctored, was it? Just of unknown veracity.

And regarding Noreen going over the edge after her son disappeared, this is what seems like is happening to me. She is grasping at any idea, no matter how ridiculous, to keep her son alive in her mind. Maybe this Johnson-Holm woman wasn't so nutty-sounding before her son was abducted. Maybe she, too, lost it and grasps at any hope -- even aliens.

 

[mjak]

Okay I did a little sleuthing to see if I could find a connection between Noreen Gosch and Patricia Johnson Holm. Guess what Ifound. Both of them on a thread on a board called APFN message board in March of 2005!! Yup, these women knew each other way before Noreen came forward with these pictures. Noreens calims are not holding water. See the following links and tell me what you think funny the topic is Johnny Gosch and Jeff Gannon. - mjak

<LI class=first_message>SHILLUM —ZOBOLI, Fri Mar 11 21:25

• "I think Jeff Gannon is Johnny Gosch,.... —Gunderson said, Fri Mar 11 23:17
  • WHY JOHNNY CAN'T COME HOME —Noreen Gosch, Sat Mar 12 01:28
    • Jeff Gannon, Washington correspondent —Jeff Gannon, Sat Mar 12 02:04
      • Jeff Gannon? Gosch or whatever you really are- —Patricia Johnson-Holm, Sat Mar 12 15:29

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:lcZlCjO2iWoJ:www.apfn.net/messageboard/03-12-05/03-12-05.htm+Patricia+Johnson-Holm+noreen+gosch&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

 

[Insguru]

Look, and let me say i'm as frusterated as I've ever been in terms of this case, this will however, sort itself out.

Probably within a day or so, we will have further information as to whether Ms. Holm's son truely existed and if so, was he kidnaped never to be seen again. I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. I want to see what data we can get on her boy, this ex husband (i guess) she mentions and the cousin mentioned on the post. Should be easy enough to verify if he existed and was truely taken.

Anyone from Seattle area on here?? Let us here what you find out.

 

[mjak]

"Three weeks ago, we made contact with Patricia Johnson Holm, the mother of one of the boys in the photo"

This is a direct quote from Noreen Gosch's website and her latest entry identifing Ms. Holm as having made contact 3 weeks ago. As evidenced by my post above this one this is not true. Ms. Holm, and Ms. Gosch new of each other back in March of 2005 and communicted about the Johnny Gosch- Jeff Gannon situation. When Norren first put up the photo on her site of the 3 bound boys on her site she was pleeding for the families of the other boys to come forwad and Identify them. What an amazing coincidence that one of the boys would turn out to be the child of someone she had discussed her sons case w ith over a year and a half before!! I believe this is nonsense. I don't know what Ms. Gosch's agenda is but I no longer believe her claims to be belevable and mental illness aside I belive there is intentional deception going on by this women. Poor Johnny.

mjak

 

[Insguru]

"Three weeks ago, we made contact with Patricia Johnson Holm, the mother of one of the boys in the photo"

This is a direct quote from Noreen Gosch's website and her latest entry identifing Ms. Holm as having made contact 3 weeks ago. As evidenced by my post above this one this is not true. Ms. Holm, and Ms. Gosch new of each other back in March of 2005 and communicted about the Johnny Gosch- Jeff Gannon situation. When Norren first put up the photo on her site of the 3 bound boys on her site she was pleeding for the families of the other boys to come forwad and Identify them. What an amazing coincidence that one of the boys would turn out to be the child of someone she had discussed her sons case w ith over a year and a half before!! I believe this is nonsense. I don't know what Ms. Gosch's agenda is but I no longer believe her claims to be belevable and mental illness aside I belive there is intentional deception going on by this women. Poor Johnny.

mjak

In reading the posts you posted, i'm not sure this was a message exchange between the parties. It seems to be topics relating to the individuals named, rather than a typical message chain, though I admit thats what it looks like.

That being said, if I'm right (and I'm open to the idea that i'm wrong), Holm's may have had knowledge of NG, but not necessarily the other way around.

Go through them and see what you think.

 

[Insguru]

May be someone that wanted to interject herself into this case.

Again, i want to see proof her son existed and was taken. I can't find any reference at all on the web.

 

[docwho3]

Good deeds done after the fact should never exclude someone from the suspect list, only evidence should do that.

Quite true! That's why I qualified my statement as "in my view". It's just an opinion.

I can see starting something like the "Johnny Gosch bill" as a cover, much like a perp participating in the search for their own victim, but I can't see sustaining that effort all the way - seeing it through to fruition. That's too much work, just for "looks". Again, in my opinion.

First, Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Response:
She may have felt some real sense of guilt requiring her to make up for things by doing this good deed. Then again there is also the fear factor of being caught to spur one on to make extraordinary effort to turn away the eyes of suspicion. The effort required for one seems to be about the same as for the other possibility you mentioned.

It would also require a huge amount of effort to continue to falsely convince people that a huge conspiracy was to blame along with all the other wild stuff and writing the book about it all etc.

If I were to make up a story to keep my case in the news so I could get action where I felt no action was happening I would never go so far as to make claims that destroyed my credibility because once that happens there can be a backlash. I also would never say that he came back as an adult and spoke to me because that makes him a willfully missing adult at that point and I would then risk that if L.E. took me seriously they might stop looking for johnny. (Hmmm, I wonder if that was an intended goal or only a coincidence?)

There are lots of ways to get publicity without going to the UFO/aliens in white house degree of circus but I suppose it could, in future, be used to lay a foundation of an insanity defense if need be.

Still, I also take into account what others have more charitably said about her possibly being delusional due to grief of loss. I suppose I am looking at things with a cynical eye but I am also keeping my mind open to the other possibilities such as those.

 

[mjak]

In reading the posts you posted, i'm not sure this was a message exchange between the parties. It seems to be topics relating to the individuals named, rather than a typical message chain, though I admit thats what it looks like.

That being said, if I'm right (and I'm open to the idea that i'm wrong), Holm's may have had knowledge of NG, but not necessarily the other way around.

Go through them and see what you think.

Okay, I went back and looked at both posts and I believe each women posted information relevant to the thread. The both posted on the same day.
Patricia Johnson Holms posted about Noreen's son. I feel comfortable deducting from this that these women knew about each other. The liklihood that the photo would surface this past september and the identified boy in the photo would turn out to be the son of someone Ms. Gosch posted on the same forum, in the same thread, on the same day about the topic of Johnny I can't except as coincidental. I believe Norren knew Patricia Johnson Holms way before this past september.

mjak

 

[docwho3]

Okay, I went back and looked at both posts and I believe each women posted information relevant to the thread. The both posted on the same day.
Patricia Johnson Holms posted about Noreen's son. I feel comfortable deducting from this that these women knew about each other. The liklihood that the photo would surface this past september and the identified boy in the photo would turn out to be the son of someone Ms. Gosch posted on the same forum, in the same thread, on the same day about the topic of Johnny I can't except as coincidental. I believe Norren knew Patricia Johnson Holms way before this past september.

mjak

I am only "listening" to the two of you post about this and have not read the posts of the ladies but I have to admit you seem to have a valid and reasonable sounding point that the 2 ladies may well have been aware of each other and may have had contact.

 

[Insguru]

Okay, I went back and looked at both posts and I believe each women posted information relevant to the thread. The both posted on the same day.
Patricia Johnson Holms posted about Noreen's son. I feel comfortable deducting from this that these women knew about each other. The liklihood that the photo would surface this past september and the identified boy in the photo would turn out to be the son of someone Ms. Gosch posted on the same forum, in the same thread, on the same day about the topic of Johnny I can't except as coincidental. I believe Norren knew Patricia Johnson Holms way before this past september.

mjak

Mjak -
Thanks for your post above. If you're right on this, then likely this could be a fraud. If it is a fraud, it could be as i stated earlier, a woman that wanted to associate herself with the case. What better way to do that than to say that her son is in the picture?
I feel confident that we will be hearing more about this very soon. We will be able to verify if her son was a kidnap victim, and maybe who the third child is. We may never reach agreement of the kid wearing number 15, but if we could verify any of the other kids, we might have something real to discuss.
Strange thing is, the kid in the middle looks like he could be related to her, from the pic I saw on the website for her show. Very strange.

 

[Insguru]

I did a google on the step dad for "seattle" and some scientology website shows up. I can't access it on this computer as it is blocked. I'm sorry this is not directly on point with the topic of solving JG's case, but if we could confirm or deny the legitimacy of the picture and the kids, it would help make us more effecient in our discussions in the days ahead. Doc and everyone, thanks for bearing with us on this pic discussion. Its so bizarre, i don't even know what to say.

 

[docwho3]

Seeing as how those lawfully investigating the pics have said that the 3 boys pic was a posed pic and claim they have all been identified and that one of the boys, now a grown man, was spoken to I feel no need to reinvent the wheel by trying to reidentify the boys in that pic. That is just how I feel about it and I realize that others may feel differently.

As to whether the pics are "genuine" in any other sense of the word. If a pic is made by people that posed for it in order to simulate being held against their will that makes the pic not genuine but "faked". Its just that technology was probably not really needed to alter any existing image to do it. To me its still just a fake. The other, single image of a boy was, as I have said before, evidently tampered with from an existing color image. That makes that image at least very suspect and, furthermore, if that boy is the same boy as one of those in the "three boys" pic it certainly must have been posed also.

We already know that one of the alleged new claims which is designed to bolster the images validity is allegedly being made by a woman deep in the UFO conspiracy type way-out-there type of stuff and we know there seems to be a strong possibility, as previously posted about, that noreen knew of or had contact with this far out lady which also smells all on its own.

I am glad that the facts about these pics are at last coming out.

Again thats my reading of the facts as we know them at this time. Others may well vary with their own ideas.

 

[Insguru]

Doc - But some of my best friends are aliens! A good night to all.

 

[docwho3]

Doc - But some of my best friends are aliens! A good night to all.

LOL and you all party with Elvis -right?