IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #1

[thelmadawg]

I can't yet find a source that states which years Joubert was stationed at Offutt AFB. Still looking for a solid timeline for him...

This is very intriguing, re: John Joubert. According to the Crime Library, Joubert's first known murder was 11-year-old Richard Stetson on August 22, 1982 in Maine. After that, Joubert went to Texas (for how long? And what happened there???). Joubert's second known victim was 13-year-old Danny Eberle on September 18, 1983 near Omaha, Nebraska.

Johnny Gosch disappeared September 5, 1982 in Des Moines, Iowa.

Joubert must have left Maine immediately after killing Richard Stetson, and if he went to Texas, he didn't stay there long if he killed Gosch in early September 1982.

There were actually two victims for which he was later arrested. The Eberle boy, and another, Chris Walden. It wasn't until he was apprehended for these two boys that Maine Police associated him with the first murder there. While he eventually confessed to the murder of these two children, he never mentioned the earlier Maine murder -- which suggests there could be more.

Both these boys were classic all American kids -- much like J. Marc Allen, Johnny G, and the Martin boy. Look at the link above. There are pics of the two children.

A timeline of his whereabouts and occupations would be interesting!

 

[William R Thomas]

Again, I disagree. That is not logical, to me.

If a suspected serial killer is arrested, and confesses to one or more killings but insists he is part of an enormous & complicated conspiracy involving government officials, corrupt police, foreign agents, blah blah - does that mean you can't prosecute him for the murders he confessed to unless you can prove the entirety of his allegations?

No. You work with what you've got, with whatever facts you have to support a prosecution. The only hard facts we have in this case, is that Paul Bonacci confessed to being a participant. That, is a verifiable and undisputed fact.

I believe that Marc Karr confessed as well. Without anything to back it up, it's a worthless confession.

 

[Roy Harrold]

There is now the following claim on the Johnny Gosch Foundation site (Noreen Gosch's site):
"We now have the names of all the boys in the current photos on my website, provided by an eye witness to these photos being shot. This site was discovered by our investigators."

She does not give the names of the boys, nor the name of the eyewitness, nor whether or not this information has been passed to law enforcement and verified by them. Perhaps she will give these details later.

This claim "This site [the pedo site we've been discussing where the photos are] was discovered by our investigators" is a bit disingenuous, unless she's including "Jimmy Gibson" as one of her "investigators". In the past, her use of that term has signified Rothstein & Gunderson - with Gibson and Bonacci described as "sources". Whatever.

This appears to be, logically, a claim that the posting by "Jimmy" on the Des Moines Register site:
http://blogs.dmregister.com/?p=2317

wherein he claims responsibility for sending the photos to Noreen's associates, is accepted by her as legitimate. From other statements of Noreen's posted here, she was clearly unaware of the site before this posting was made on the Des Moine Register's site - and as far as I can assertain that posting was the first time anyone associated with the case (including Des Moines PD) became aware of the site. That was on September 9, 2006.

If all that is true, then this would constitute a statement by Noreen Gosch that she accepts the claim of responsibility for circulating the photos and implies that there should no longer be any question about how the photos came to be sent to her, that they were sent to her by her own associates.

 

[Roy Harrold]

To save people searching, this is the claim made by "Jimmy Gibson" on the Register's site:

"Hi my name is Jimmy Gibson. I am writing you to tell my side of the recent development.

About 3 weeks ago I recieved 3 photos to my email, I do not know who sent them nor do I know where they came from, it was a anom email account probably sent froma proxy server. I was quite shocked when I saw them and debated on wether I should send them to Noreen Gosch or not. Yes the photos indeed look like it could be Johnny Gosch but like everything in this world you are never really sure. So I thought about it for a while and then I edventually sent them to a contact of Noreen Gosch, Tim White who has been working with her on this case.

I went back to the email and looked and one of the images was not an actual copy but a image linked pic. So I traced the image back to the url (Which appears below)

[pedo site url deleted by me]

The image with the “brand” I believe not to be Johnny and not a legit image at all, but the one with the three kids, the middle kid I believe couold be Johnny but again I doubt it. If someone is messing around and faked them they are sick. But they look real to me and thats why I forwarded them to the people I stated above.

But there are some people out there that constatnly remind me about it, like the images that were sent to me. I honestly didnt know what to do, if they were legit Noreen should know right? if they are not legit it just causes more pain for the families involved. So what does a person do? I did what I thought was the right thing, I sent the images to someone who would get them to Noreen.

I only emailed them to Tim White and Michael Corbin. As far as the images being found on Noreen’s doorstep I have not a clue.

From what I know, Tim White emailed them to everybody he could think of, Decamp/Gosch and so on and who knows how many other people. I believe Mr. White blew this whole thing out of proportion and acted irresponsible."

 

[inquiringmindz]

This just keeps getting crazier and crazier and I'm getting confused. :doh:

From NG's site


Q: Do they know who kidnapped Johnny?

A: We have reports and court testimony from Paul Bonacci, Jimmy Gibson and Rusty Nelson regarding the people involved in kidnapping Johnny.

http://www.johnnygosch.com/CaseFAQ.htm




How do we know it was the real Jimmy Gibson that posted on the blog? It could have been someone posing to stir up trouble. I don't know what to think anymore. I just want JG and his family to be reunited.

 

[HeartofTexas]

Here's the only chronology I've been able to find on John Joubert:

John Joubert chronology Sept. 18, 1983 - Danny Jo Eberle, 13, disappears while delivering newspapers in Bellevue. Three days later, his body is found in a ditch about two miles south of Offutt Air Force Base. He was stabbed several times. Dec. 2, 1983 - Christopher Walden, 12, disappears while walking to school near Papillion. Three days later, his body is found in northern Sarpy County. He also was stabbed several times.Jan. 11, 1984 - A man attempts to assault a Bellevue pre-school teacher, who memorizes the...

Obviously, the above doesn't include the timeperiod we're interested in. I do wonder, though, if he killed another child in Maine in 1982, and then was an airman at Offutt AFB by the time of the 1983 killings, how in the world he would have had time to stop in Iowa and kill Johnny Gosch. It would be nice to find a timeline for Joubert after he became an airman.

 

[maima]

There were actually two victims for which he was later arrested. The Eberle boy, and another, Chris Walden. It wasn't until he was apprehended for these two boys that Maine Police associated him with the first murder there. While he eventually confessed to the murder of these two children, he never mentioned the earlier Maine murder -- which suggests there could be more.

Both these boys were classic all American kids -- much like J. Marc Allen, Johnny G, and the Martin boy. Look at the link above. There are pics of the two children.

A timeline of his whereabouts and occupations would be interesting!

According to the case "Background" section in Joubert's 1995 appeal of his death sentence, it states, "In the fall of 1983, Joubert, a recent transferee to Offutt Airforce Base..." This gives me the impression that Joubert didn't start at Offutt until sometime in 1983.

 

[HeartofTexas]

Sorry if this is repeat information, but I don't recall reading about a newspaper boy that got away from John Joubert:

in 1983, a young paperboy in Bellevue, Nebraska stumbles back into town after having been abducted and tortured by a strange man. He is able to describe John Joubert, a military radar technician, to the police, who arrest Joubert just as another boy’s body is found in the woods. The young man who escaped Joubert is given a medal by President Reagan for his heroism.

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:suhJeKPTg3EJ:althistory.blogspot.com/2005/09/wells-born-in-england-ford-seized-by.html+%22john+joubert%22+chronology&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9

 

[FourthBase]

How do we know it was the real Jimmy Gibson that posted on the blog? It could have been someone posing to stir up trouble. I don't know what to think anymore. I just want JG and his family to be reunited.

Jimmy Gibson is the work of a troll.
One specific troll in particular.

 

[Pcarpent]

If all that is true, then this would constitute a statement by Noreen Gosch that she accepts the claim of responsibility for circulating the photos and implies that there should no longer be any question about how the photos came to be sent to her, that they were sent to her by her own associates.

Her initial statements to the police and media are unequivocal that the photos were anonymously left at her doorstep in an envelope. It's clear that there are extremely suspicious aspects to how this story got going, and so far they do not cast Noreen or her "associates" in a particularly good light. It's telling that in the aftermath of the 1999 allegations that a grown-up Johnny paid her a visit, her ex-husband dismissed the story as a means to get publicity. I still find the timing of the appearance of these photos just after the media firestorm over the fake JonBent confession to be interesting.

 

[Roy Harrold]

I understand how Noreen Gosch became aware of the pedo site with the pictures on it.
It's very easy to track.

I posted the a link to "Jimmy Gibson's" claim about the origin of the photos. "Jimmy's" claim included the link to the pedo site. Noreen was clearly not aware of the site before I did this. Some people who frequent this site sent that information to Noreen Gosch, as evidenced by William's posts #156-57 in the "boys bound & gagged" thread.
William also states that West Des Moines PD did not inform Noreen of the site.

So, there are two possibilities - either Noreen is claiming the "Jimmy Gibson" on the Register site is one of her "investigators", and therefore his posting is legitimate - or she is not being truthful when she says "This site was discovered by our investigators", because there is NO evidence that anyone associated with the case had any knowledge of the site prior to "Jimmy's" posting on the Register. If "Jimmy" is not one of her "investigators", she is falsely attributing discovery of the site to someone else - someone she does consider one of her investigators.

 

[maima]

Sorry if this is repeat information, but I don't recall reading about a newspaper boy that got away from John Joubert:


http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:suhJeKPTg3EJ:althistory.blogspot.com/2005/09/wells-born-in-england-ford-seized-by.html+%22john+joubert%22+chronology&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=9

Thanks a lot, HeartofTexas! I hadn't heard of/seen that before. I wonder if some Nebraska newspaper archives feature that event. I'll see if I can check...

 

[Pcarpent]

I understand how Noreen Gosch became aware of the pedo site with the pictures on it.

Does that also imply that there is good reason to suspect the "anonymous photos in the envelope" claim, which really gave this a sensational spin for the media to pick up?

 

[Roy Harrold]

Pcarpent - I am loath to be directly critical of Noreen Gosch. The woman is both a crime victim and a genuine hero (her Johnny Gosch Bill, eliminating the 72 hour waiting period before investigation of missing youth, set a very needed precedent and has been a godsend to parents of missing kids ever since).

So I regret having to say - yes, there are reasons to be suspicious of that story.
From the Des Moines Register:
"Noreen Gosch told The Des Moines Register shortly after the photos surfaced that she found copies on her doorstep the morning of Aug. 27. However, e-mail files of photos that she forwarded to Jim Rothstein, a former New York detective, who had been helping her with the case appeared to show she received the photos by Aug. 26. That e-mail containing the digital images was forwarded to the Register by Rothstein.
Neither Gosch nor Rothstein could account for that discrepancy on Wednesday, however."

Here's a link:

http://tinyurl.com/o5ygp

 

[Pcarpent]

You're absolutely right RH, and I didn't mean to suggest her motives are other than totally sincere - I share your respect for her, and her unfathomable suffering. I'm not inclined to be as understanding of her "associates", who seem to be behind this. But it's clear we can call into serious question the photos and the explanation of how they came to be discovered.

 

[maima]

Here's the only chronology I've been able to find on John Joubert:


Obviously, the above doesn't include the timeperiod we're interested in. I do wonder, though, if he killed another child in Maine in 1982, and then was an airman at Offutt AFB by the time of the 1983 killings, how in the world he would have had time to stop in Iowa and kill Johnny Gosch. It would be nice to find a timeline for Joubert after he became an airman.

Joubert's MO does seem to fit so well with the disappearance of Johnny Gosch, but your point, HeartofTexas, about how Joubert could possibly have had the time to get up to Des Moines to abduct Gosch makes me think a Joubert - Gosch connection is less likely. What also bothers me is the other extremely similar case of missing paperboy Eugene Wade Martin -- but Martin didn't disappear until August 1984. Joubert was already in custody by January 1984. No way Joubert was involved in Martin's disappearance.

So now I'm thinking that finding a Joubert - Gosch connection is just "barking up the wrong tree", as they say.

 

[William R Thomas]

I understand how Noreen Gosch became aware of the pedo site with the pictures on it.
It's very easy to track.

I posted the a link to "Jimmy Gibson's" claim about the origin of the photos. "Jimmy's" claim included the link to the pedo site. Noreen was clearly not aware of the site before I did this. Some people who frequent this site sent that information to Noreen Gosch, as evidenced by William's posts #156-57 in the "boys bound & gagged" thread.
William also states that West Des Moines PD did not inform Noreen of the site.

So, there are two possibilities - either Noreen is claiming the "Jimmy Gibson" on the Register site is one of her "investigators", and therefore his posting is legitimate - or she is not being truthful when she says "This site was discovered by our investigators", because there is NO evidence that anyone associated with the case had any knowledge of the site prior to "Jimmy's" posting on the Register. If "Jimmy" is not one of her "investigators", she is falsely attributing discovery of the site to someone else - someone she does consider one of her investigators.

She became aware of it because I sent her the photo and Im'd her the link.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Has anyone else noticed that "Jimmy Gibson" fits in with the whole "JG" pattern of this bizarre story: Johhny Gosch, Jeff Gannon, Jim Guckert? If someone is hoaxing NG, this may be a clue that the pictures part of the story is a hoax also.

 

[FourthBase]

She became aware of it because I sent her the photo and Im'd her the link.

I did the same thing.

Did you, Roy?

 

[Roy Harrold]

She became aware of it because I sent her the photo and Im'd her the link.

I assumed as much, from what you had said in those postings about your conversation with her.

I think she had a right to know about it, so if the Des Moines PD didn't clue her in, you did a good, kind thing by drawing it to her attention in my opinion.

I speculated earlier on possible reasons why they might not have clued her in, but the closed-lipness of investigators can be very frustrating - for people like us who would like to help solve cases if we can, and surely even more so for crime victims who are not kept up to date. They have their reasons, and I can even understand them sometimes, but...aaaaaargh! Eh?

I don't know Noreen Gosch, as you seem to, so I didn't think it was my place to tell her about it and at the time I discovered that posting on the Register's site I had no idea if she already knew of the site or not.