IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

[mjak]

I hate to say it, but this does sound quite plausible to me.......though IF this is the case, perhaps Noreen is truly not "in the know" and is completely bamboozled by the others into believing the Franklin cover-up. Or maybe I just don't want to accept that there is the possibility of delusion on her part.....convincing herself that this is what happened rather than the hard, horrible truth. I can concoct all sorts of odd theories at this point, I still believe though that his case and Eugene Martin's are connected, maybe also that boy named Mark as well. Gahh. What a mess!

I always believed in Noreens theories being possible until I read her book. Sadly , to me the book was so representative of a women with severe mental illness. Have you read the book? I came to the conclusion that as far out as Noreens beliefs were I had always kept an open mind in spite of my leanding toward disbelief. After reading the book I realized this theory was the distorted rantings of a very mentally ill women and I could no longer give it the benefit of the doubt I had given it for years. The book was distrubing to me.

mjak

 

[Mr. E]

I didn't really get that sense from reading her book. Not that she was "very mentally ill." That she was desperate, yes, and grasping at any possible lead, yes. Also, that she had a very thin grasp of how to write using standard English grammar. The book seemed thrown together and disorganized and poorly researched, but Noreen herself just seemed sort of sad and desperate.

 

[mjak]

I didn't really get that sense from reading her book. Not that she was "very mentally ill." That she was desperate, yes, and grasping at any possible lead, yes. Also, that she had a very thin grasp of how to write using standard English grammar. The book seemed thrown together and disorganized and poorly researched, but Noreen herself just seemed sort of sad and desperate.

I percieved so much hostility in her writings combined with complete disorderd thinking and a manic type of repittion. I agree with the poor grammer but I feel it was much more then just poor writing skills. I am no shrink so I could be all wroing but I came away from that book feeling very sad for her and thinking what a sick women.

mjak

 

[Mr. E]

It's true, there was a lot of disordered thinking. The book was very disorganized. I guess I looked at it more from a teacher's viewpoint: The disorganization led to disordered thinking, rather than that the disordered thinking came from a mentally ill mind. Who knows?

I said once before that a friend of mine lived in the area when Johnny went missing. My friend only ever said to me that the Gosh's were "weird" and that she didn't think Johnny ever made it out of that town alive. Maybe Noreen's book is evidence of her "weirdness." When I read the book, and this was a few years ago, I primarily thought that she desperately needed an editor.

Personally, I think the father had more to do with Johnny's disappearance than anybody knows. Maybe Noreen's "weirdness" comes from living with and being married to an abusive man, although I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back this up. It's just kind of a hunch, I guess.

 

[lilmisssleuth]

It has been mentioned a few times that people think his father had something to do with the kidnapping. What evidence points to this? I haven't read Noreen's book, but very much want to. I just need to find it somewhere.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

It has been mentioned a few times that people think his father had something to do with the kidnapping. What evidence points to this?

I believe that the primary reasons that some suspect Johnny's father was that (A) this was the first time that his father did not accompany Johnny on his paper route, and (B) the father has been strangely silent over the years, unlike Noreen.

 

[gidget641]

I believe that the primary reasons that some suspect Johnny's father was that (A) this was the first time that his father did not accompany Johnny on his paper route, and (B) the father has been strangely silent over the years, unlike Noreen.

I can say that these are the reasons I for one would like Johnny's father looked at a bit closer. Especially the second reason you listed.

I find it strange that he has never voiced an opinion on Noreen's late night visit, her claims of a high level group of perverts, and the photos that she received.

In my mind his silence says one of three things: 1-he was involved. He feels he got away with it and he is not going to bring attention to himself again by speaking out on Johnny's case.


2-He is not involved with his son going missing, he has come to terms with the fact that his son is gone and never coming back. and he does not want to pull the scab off the wound so to speak.

or

3-he believes as noreen does and feels that by speaking out it would put his son in danger. (IMO-this is the least likely)

I just wish we knew why he does not speak up on anything related to his sons case.

 

[Mr. E]

There was a special on I think HBO way back, probably in the 80s. It told the story of Johnny, and had a reenactment of his abduction. The parents were then interviewed. I remember at the time that I thought the dad was weird. Just the way he acted, he didn't seem overly concerned. Maybe he was just an unemotional person, but I thought then that he maybe knew more than he was saying. Say what you will about Noreen, but at least she wants to keep Johnny's story out there. The dad seemed like he wished everybody would just go away and leave him alone. I wish I could watch the special again; those were my impressions as a teen, not as an adult.

The book alludes to the father's possible involvement in Johnny's disappearance. Either it is the rantings of a desperate woman, or there is some truth to it. 25 years after the abduction, I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever know the whole truth.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I have made a composite photograph of pictures of Johnny and the boy in the bondage photos for comparison (see attached).

A few observations:

1) The picture in the center of the top row is of the "unidentified" boy that Noreen mentions that appears to be too young to be Johnny (at the age he disappeared). When placed side-by-side with the pictures of the boy that Noreen identifies as Johnny, it is clear that they are the same boy. I believe that this is obvious once the faces are isolated and compared. This means that this boy either is not Johnny or Johnny was photographed prior to his abduction. I believe that this boy is not Johnny because...

2) The pictures in the middle center and lower center are pictures of Johnny. The surrounding pictures are of the boy that Noreen believes is Johnny. While there is a noticable similarity between the two sets of pictures, focus on the noses. Johnny's nose appears to be broader with his nostrils less visible. The "bondage boy" has a distinctly narrower nose with his nostrils much more visible. Some of this may be explained by differences in camera angle, but the difference in the noses is consistant in all of the pictures.

3) Earlier, I had referred to these pictures as rather tame with no evidence of violence against this boy. I was wrong. Once I isolated the face of the boy, it is apparent that some of the pictures show eyes swollen nearly shut (see the lower row of pictures). It would appear that this boy, while not Johnny, has been subjected to years of abuse by someone (based on the maturing of his features depicted in the series).

While gathering these pictures, I was not able to find a picture that I know that I have seen before - one of an older Johnny sitting on his bicycle where he is wearing a down vest. This picture appeared to be the one where Johnny was the most physically mature (both facially and in body muscle tone). If anyone has or knows where I can find this picture, please let me know. Thanks!

(If the attachment below does not work, try this link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11624535@N08/1803997027/?addedcomment=1#comment72157602797242800 )

 

[laini]

Wow. Thanks for doing that Dr. Doogie. Very intersting! I also think the boy in the photos looks too young to be Johnny. They do resemble him otherwise.

On a side note, regarding the father, wasn't he quoted as saying somewhere (Noreen's book maybe) that if his son lived years in a pedophile ring, he isn't sure he would want to find him like that. Does anybody remember reading that? I was trying to understand that. I guess we can't understand unless we have been there, but I can't imagine thinking that way.

 

[2sisters]

the more I think about it, i think his not being with Johnny that day in coincidental. i think he lays low b/c Noreen has become unstable and he doesn't want to be associated with her. i feel like he just wants to move forward. There were siblings too and they have remained quiet as well.

 

[lilmisssleuth]

I agree with 2sisters. I think he has accepted the fact his son is gone and wants to didtance himself from Noreen's actions.

 

[rbeck]

quote from Mr E.
"Personally, I think the father had more to do with Johnny's disappearance than anybody knows. Maybe Noreen's "weirdness" comes from living with and being married to an abusive man, although I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back this up. It's just kind of a hunch, I guess."


Finally, Finally ,Finally! Someone posted something on this website with some sense! Mr E. you have it dead on my friend. Johnnys father is DEFINATELY INVOLVED IN THIS KIDNAPPING. why? who knows ? we can only guess.As far as evidence goes. The Gosch family used to get a "wrong number" phone call every saturday night at 1:00am Johnnys father always hung up on them. The night before his kidnapping Noreen heard him say to the"wrong number caller" yeah um hm ok ok then he hung up. And he conveniently didnt go with johnny on his route the next morning.Also Russell "Rusty" Eric Nelson former photographer an personal assistant to Larry King of the Franklin Credit Union said that he saw Mr Gosch recieve money from Larry King in his office. And what about when Attorney Decamp calls the Gosch famliy to tell them a young man in prison (Paul Bonacci) he just interviewed claims that he helped in Johhnys kidnapping. Johhnys father and an imposter a woman who looks like noreen showed up to interview Paul with his attorney and he kept it quiet from Noreen for years. And look at the mans behavior after the kidnapping he became abusive physically towards his wife and making nasty derogitory remarks in local newspapers about Noreen .look up some of the things he says in the Omaha World Harold about her.He in no way acts like a man who wants to help find his son he is acting very very guilty. The man is guilty as sin . Does anyone know anything about Johnnys fathers past?his old jobs? where hes from? Noreen has said he was in the Marines maybe a Vietnam Vet?

 

[cold case lady]

well said gidget641!
curious though!If you were in his situation,would you sit back all this time and say nothing?he may feel overwhelming guilt since that day that he did not do the paper route with him,possibly the one time he didn't go with him.That kind of guilt would be unbearable!:silenced:

 

[2sisters]

Does anyone know what Johnny's home life was like? Was his mom unstable? Was there any evidence of abuse, as Mr. E was thinking?

 

[rbeck]

Does anyone know what Johnny's home life was like? Was his mom unstable? Was there any evidence of abuse, as Mr. E was thinking?

His home life was great he was active in sports did well in school and had 2 older siblings and a loving good family life before he was abducted by a group of wealthy powerful perverts .his mother was NOT unstable???? why in the world would you assume something like that? there is evidence of abuse after he was kidnapped from one of the abusers themselves (Paul Bonacci) which he now regrets. I seriously recommend you people listen to the interviews Noreen has done on numerous talk shows and you can judge for yourself if she is unstable?? instead of judging her based on her limited literary skills in a poorly edited book! follow these links and try to educate yourselves more on this case.

http://www.solutionassoc.com/truthfire/audio.html Noreen Gosch interview parts 1, 2 and 3

http://www.solutionassoc.com/TruthFire/blog/2005/04/rusty-nelson-interview-this-one-may-be.html rusty nelson interview parts 1 2 and 3

http://www.mysteriesofthemind.com/ click on the archives sections March-April 2005 hopefully the links still work. if not I will gladly send the interviews in MP3 format by email.

interesting quote from Noreen "When i first started talking about pedophile rings who took children 20 years ago people would throw rocks at me they didnt want to hear it"

It looks like people are still throwing rocks and dont want to hear it

 

[Teresa Larson]

His home life was great he was active in sports did well in school and had 2 older siblings and a loving good family life before he was abducted by a group of wealthy powerful perverts .his mother was NOT unstable???? why in the world would you assume something like that? there is evidence of abuse after he was kidnapped from one of the abusers themselves (Paul Bonacci) which he now regrets. I seriously recommend you people listen to the interviews Noreen has done on numerous talk shows and you can judge for yourself if she is unstable?? instead of judging her based on her limited literary skills in a poorly edited book! follow these links and try to educate yourselves more on this case.

http://www.solutionassoc.com/truthfire/audio.html Noreen Gosch interview parts 1, 2 and 3

http://www.solutionassoc.com/TruthFire/blog/2005/04/rusty-nelson-interview-this-one-may-be.html rusty nelson interview parts 1 2 and 3

http://www.mysteriesofthemind.com/ click on the archives sections March-April 2005 hopefully the links still work. if not I will gladly send the interviews in MP3 format by email.

interesting quote from Noreen "When i first started talking about pedophile rings who took children 20 years ago people would throw rocks at me they didnt want to hear it"

It looks like people are still throwing rocks and dont want to hear it

Trust me I am not assuming anything Noreen is a nutcase!! I know it first hand. Rich pedophiles didn't kidnap Johnny. It was somebody he knew very well. How do you know he had a good home life? Where did you get that information? You think she sounds like she is a stable sane person?

 

[rbeck]

you said "Trust me I am not assuming anything Noreen is a nutcase!! I know it first hand. Rich pedophiles didn't kidnap Johnny. It was somebody he knew very well. How do you know he had a good home life? Where did you get that information? You think she sounds like she is a stable sane person?"


Well of course she sounds like she is a sane stable person. Can you give me a specific example of why you have such a negative opinion of Noreen?and why is she on trial in the first place being judged by people like yourself? she is not the victim her son Johnny is.I think shes done one hell of a job over the years trying to expose what happened to him.you are right someone he knew very well was involved I strongly believe that his father sold him to these pedophiles .and you think rich pedophiles didnt kidnap him?? well what proof do you have that someone "didnt kidnap him"?when the evidence supports the fact that he was kidnapped by Larry King's disgusting group of perverts.Do you totally dismiss the sworn testimony of Paul Bonacci,Alisha Owens,Troy Boner,Rusty Nelson and others all saying that they have seen and been around Johnny during the 80s while he was used "basically as a sex slave" to quote Rusty.Paul was in the car that snatched Johhny the day he was kidnapped he revealed detailed info about Johnny to Noreen years later that no one knew besides his mom.Paul was up to his eyeballs with these rich pedophiles since the 70s. You seem to be looking for a cop out,a cut and dry easy answer to this case.You seem to think that children young boys and girls are not used as prostitues for the rich and wealthy to compromise them. Larry King was pimping children for years to politicians and high government officials. Hell I know a man personally who worked overseas for the state department in Kuwait ,Saudi, Bahrain He said he gets offered sex of all kinds and descriptions(including kids) he turned them down all the time and eventually they quit offering he said its no big deal part of the job. Folks this stuff is very real and no matter how his mother may seem i think Johnny was used as a sex slave to these people

 

[Mr. E]

rbeck, I think the reason why so many people discount Noreen's story is because there are so many questions with no answers.

1. Why Johnny Gosch, a kid from West Des Moines, Iowa? He wasn't special in any way (other than to his mother, I'm sure). He was just a regular kid. Why did he get picked?

2. If Johnny really did survive and escape, where is he now? He and I are the same age; why would an almost 40-year-old man have to fear for his life over events that happened when he was a kid? No one would believe his story, anyway.

3. The pictures Noreen says are Johnny: How does she know? There is a resemblance, but as others have pointed out, there are resemblances to other kids, too. Where's the proof? Where's the mark on his face, or the strawberry mark on his shoulder?

Noreen has done a lot for Johnny. She got that congressional bill passed. She's kept his story alive and on the internet. She wrote and self-published a book. She just seems desperate to believe anything. I think if Noreen had something to do with Johnny's disappearance, she would have faded quietly into the background, like Johnny's father did.

Anything is possible, but it just seems more likely that Johnny was taken, used, and killed by someone close to him, maybe even someone in his family.

Does anyone know if the police ever looked at Johnny's father as a suspect? Isn't that nearly always where they look first -- the parents? I'd love to know if John Gosch, Sr. was ever definitively cleared by law enforcement.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

rbeck, I think the reason why so many people discount Noreen's story is because there are so many questions with no answers.

1. Why Johnny Gosch, a kid from West Des Moines, Iowa? He wasn't special in any way (other than to his mother, I'm sure). He was just a regular kid. Why did he get picked?

I don't think anyone is "safe" from maggots who molests kids, but I am beginning to think something is a little off as far as a paedo ring.

Paedophiles like smaller, weaker, vulnerable, children, and as far as age goes, Johnny was just a child. BUT, according to his stats he was 5'7" and 140 pounds at the time of his disappearance. That is the size of many grown men. Since he was so big, you would think he would be a turn off for men who like "little boys".

If he was already that big when he disappeared, he wouldn't be a useful child sex slave for very long, (if at all). Why take the all the risk abducting a boy for a child sex ring if he (at the rate he was growing) would quickly grow larger than the maggots who he was to be abused by? I don't think it would be very cost efficient...It's like, how many people buy overly ripe bananas unless they plan to use them all up that day? If you want to keep them around for awhile, you buy them green, not black.