IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

[miles_draken]

WOW, this thread has really taken off and I have to admit I haven't read it for quite awhile. I was becoming almost obsessed with this case last year and studied things about it on a nearly daily basis, but I've taken a step back because I was believing almost everything Noreen Gosch would relate. I've heard her on radio shows based out of Colorado, i forget what it's called, and read exerpts of the book and the info on the pictures she was given. Here are a couple of problems I find as I've returned from my sabatical.

1. Noreen claims Johnny came to see her as an adult, I can't remember the year, was it mid 90's?

I heard an interview in which Jeff Gannon called in to the radio show while Noreen was on. She was saying she wasn't sure he was Johnny and wanted a DNA test to prove it. Now, this was 2006 I believe when this show was on and the whole Jeff Gannon thing was going on. Even if this had been 10 years since she saw him wouldn't she recognize him as her son or not ?

That has bothered me a bit.

2. I hadn't heard any of the information about John SR. except the mysterious phone call. I wasn't aware of the money withdraw or crazy antics he was displaying. I wonder how thoroughly he was investigated.

3. When someone disappears, especially as a child, and twenty-four years pass, they are usually deceased. I'm not sure I believe any more that he is in hiding. What would the purpose be? There is a large portion of the population who believes in these conspiracies and such, and I guess I no longer count myself among them.

I believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK.
I believe that dude with the same first and last name killed his brother.
I believe Emelia Erhart crashed in the ocean.
I believe Hitler is really dead.

I don't believe in Bigfoot.
I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster.
I don't believe in Alien bodies at Area 51.
I don't believe in pinch rolling my jeans anymore.

And I sure as hell don't believe Bush brought down building 7 on 9-11!!!!!!!

 

[kline]

This such a heart breaking case like so many others like it.
What happened to Johnny?
Most likely he was abducted by a pedophille.
Someone who had harmed many children in the past.
He did terrible things to him and then killed him and hid him so well no one will ever find him.
He went on and did it again and is now either dead or in prison for some other sex crime.
Sadly I think the answer is just that simple.

 

[rbeck]

I think the government is capable of lies and deceit, but I do not belive for a second they are running a child sex operation.

I couldnt more strongly disagree.The Washington Times and Washington Post have been reporting this for years since the 80s. Lobbyists have been using prostitutes (including underage children) to blackmail politicians for years its very common in Washington. Reporters even have their credit card reciepts of the transactions.These lobbyists also have ties to the CIA and other intelligence groups foreign and domestic. One of the latest politicians caught was Congressman Randal Cunningham for his association with lobbyist Jack Abramov.
Here is a website with articles from the New York Times, Washington Times and other newspapers about Craig Spence another lobbyist\blackmailer\pimp and former abc correspondant who had dealings with the CIA and Larry King. http://www.newsmakingnews.com/sexandcapitol7,18,01.htm#article6

I welcome any comments on this , thanks

 

[Insguru]

RBeck, certainly you are entitled to your opinions and we all for the most part try to be respectful of all on here.

That being said, all of the information you are providing us with is very old, rehash. We have all heard the audio clips, we are all aware of the "mind control" activities alleged at the AFB. We are aware of Sam Soda, the PI who was alleged to have been involved by Paul B.

Most of us really have been on here for years. I also have taken a "vacation" from posting (i think its been over a year). But if we are willing to keep talking and discussing possibilities, then i'm in and eager to participate. But please stop informing us of the mind control experiments, we know all of this already.

And as for the $5k withdrawal, it was done after he became missing, in order to purchase supplies and fund expenses for the search. It was not withdrawn in advance.

 

[kazzbar]

I rarely post anymore on this thread as it is all just rehash but i am really glad that everyone is still going over the options in regard to Johnny. I read all the posts with great interest. I have never believed that Johnny was in any of Noreens photos. Not because I have any strong opinion of her one way or the other, but purely because I do not think that any of the boys look like him.
As for Noreen saying Johnny came to visit her this I also do not buy...
Having said that I am a fence sitter with this case ..one day I will jump off that fence but for now I am not convinced either way.
I too think that Johnny's Dad needed further investigation...
I often think about Johnny and I wonder what really did become of him...

 

[Mr. E]

I rarely post anymore on this thread as it is all just rehash but i am really glad that everyone is still going over the options in regard to Johnny. I read all the posts with great interest. I have never believed that Johnny was in any of Noreens photos. Not because I have any strong opinion of her one way or the other, but purely because I do not think that any of the boys look like him.
As for Noreen saying Johnny came to visit her this I also do not buy...
Having said that I am a fence sitter with this case ..one day I will jump off that fence but for now I am not convinced either way.
I too think that Johnny's Dad needed further investigation...
I often think about Johnny and I wonder what really did become of him...

I do think some of the photos look like Johnny. The boy in the red sweats with the cross looks like Johnny from his picture on the cover of Noreen's book. The scared/sad/hurt boy in dark sweats and no shirt also looks like Johnny. However, he looks like a dozen other teen boys, too.

If they are Johnny, I think they were taken by someone he knew over a period of time. I'm just not buying the pedo ring/auction block theory, although I'm sure it is possible.

It just seems like all of Noreen's sources -- Paul Bishop (in the book it states he works for the CIA -- give me a break), Paul Bonacci, Sam Soda -- all seem seedy and untrustworthy. She badmouths her husband, but you would think he would say something publically about it if her allegations were untrue.

Another weird thing from the book -- at one point she says she's the youngest of six children. Later she says she has nine brothers and two sisters.

I have a question: Someone said that John Sr. said that if his son really were still alive and the long-term victim of a pedo ring, he (John Sr.) wouldn't want to have anything to do with him, like Johnny would be ruined or something. Is this statement true? I've heard it a couple of times, but I've never seen it verified.

Oh, and I saw this in another thread -- anybody think it could be a match for Johnny Gosch?
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/UnidentifiedDetails.asp?id=U0505002

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

I wholeheartedly agree. I feel it is somewhat fishy that he wasn't there that particular morning, especailly now after what you just said.

She also says in her book that John Sr. received a phone call on the morning of Johnny's disappearance that sounded suspicious. He said, "Yes, alright, yep, alright, okay," then hung up. He said it was a wrong number, but Noreen claims they had been getting "hang-up calls" for months, but this was the first time John Sr. spoke to the other person.

She says her husband compromised a police investigation by talking to a suspect, beat her, "prowled" the neighborhood and hit on teen girls, and paraded a Noreen lookalike around.

These are all suspicious actions. Forget the government, John Sr. should be suspect #1.

Okay, here is my big question of the day. Why do people believe Noreen when she trashes her husband, but they can't believe her when it comes to anything else? I've always found it odd that people pick and choose what parts of her story to except. Maybe she's lying about this too to make the story more colorful...more drama...more poor me. I'm not pointing out Ed and Sisters specifically, just using their posts as examples of what I've read over the years. If Noreen is as crazy as many of you say, then everything she says should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

I personally do not believe Johnny was abducted by a Pedo ring, or someone he knew. I have always felt it was a Steven Stayner type of situation.

Steven was abducted by stranger, Kenneth Parnell and used and abused for years. When Steven became older, Kenneth abducted another younger boy, Timmy. Steven and Timmy White only escaped the situation because Steven didn't want Timmy to go through the same thing.

Then there is Michael Devlin. He also randomly abducted Shawn Hornbeck, and pretty much did the same thing as Parnell. When Shawn became older, he abducted another younger boy, Ben Ownby...and we all know the ending.

Both of these pedo/kidnappers abducted their boys under similar circumstances. If you recall, 2 years after Johnny disappeared, another paperboy vanished in the same metro area, Eugene Martin, then 2 years later Marc Allen. I totally believe that some sick-o like Parnell or Devlin, abducted these boys for his own personal use. I think he kept him around for several years, but probably killed him after he had his new vic under his control.

 

[Mr. E]

I personally do not believe Johnny was abducted by a Pedo ring, or someone he knew. I have always felt it was a Steven Stayner type of situation.

Steven was abducted by stranger, Kenneth Parnell and used and abused for years. When Steven became older, Kenneth abducted another younger boy, Timmy. Steven and Timmy White only escaped the situation because Steven didn't want Timmy to go through the same thing.

Then there is Michael Devlin. He also randomly abducted Shawn Hornbeck, and pretty much did the same thing as Parnell. When Shawn became older, he abducted another younger boy, Ben Ownby...and we all know the ending.

Both of these pedo/kidnappers abducted their boys under similar circumstances. If you recall, 2 years after Johnny disappeared, another paperboy vanished in the same metro area, Eugene Martin. I totally believe that some sick-o like Parnell or Devlin, abducted these boys for his own personal use. I think he kept him around for several years, but probably killed him after he had his new vic under his control.

The only problem I have with that is that Steven Stayner and Shawn Hornbeck were both younger and probably more easily manipulated. Steven was only 7 and believed all the lies Parnell told him. Shawn was nearly Johnny's age -- 11 -- but there is a lot of difference between an 11 year old and a 13 year old. Shawn stayed because (from what I understand) he bargained for his life and promised to stay if kept alive. I guess I can see something like that happening with a 13-year-old boy.

Johnny was so big -- 5'7 and 140lbs -- it's hard to imagine anyone overcoming him, but I know that would certainly be possible. Steven, Shawn, and even little Ben Owenby (who was 13) were small and probably fairly easily handled.

Regarding your earlier post about Noreen's husband, I think he's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If he speaks up, he may sound as crazy as Noreen; yet when he remains silent, he seems suspicious.

As I said in an earlier post, I do tend to believe Noreen about John Sr. After all, I haven't read anything of any sort of rebuttal by him. If he doesn't deny it, it seems like it could be true.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

The only problem I have with that is that Steven Stayner and Shawn Hornbeck were both younger and probably more easily manipulated. Steven was only 7 and believed all the lies Parnell told him. Shawn was nearly Johnny's age -- 11 -- but there is a lot of difference between an 11 year old and a 13 year old. Shawn stayed because (from what I understand) he bargained for his life and promised to stay if kept alive. I guess I can see something like that happening with a 13-year-old boy.

Johnny was so big -- 5'7 and 140lbs -- it's hard to imagine anyone overcoming him, but I know that would certainly be possible. Steven, Shawn, and even little Ben Owenby (who was 13) were small and probably fairly easily handled.

Regarding your earlier post about Noreen's husband, I think he's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If he speaks up, he may sound as crazy as Noreen; yet when he remains silent, he seems suspicious.

As I said in an earlier post, I do tend to believe Noreen about John Sr. After all, I haven't read anything of any sort of rebuttal by him. If he doesn't deny it, it seems like it could be true.

His silence is peculiar, but I can see how he could grieve quite differently than his boisterous wife. If this happened in my family, I could see my mother ranting and raving like a lunatic, and my father drowning his sorrows quietly with a bottle of scotch and his work. Like you say, we don't hear from him, so it is hard to understand where he's coming from.

Also, regarding a serial pedo/kidnapper, I agree Johnny was large, like I said a few days ago, I don't think he would last very long as a boy toy, but it was only 2 years later that Eugene (13yrs 5' 110lbs) was abducted, and he was much smaller...2 years after that Marc (13yrs 4'11" 90lbs), who was smaller still. Johnny and Eugene where both abducted on a Sunday morning, and Marc a Saturday afternoon. I think who ever did it had the weekends off and used that time to get the vics under control. Even though Johnny was larger, being only 12, I doubt he had the physical strength that comes with puberty to overcome an abduction, especially if whom ever took him had help, (as in a previously abducted child)

Both Parnell and Delvin had their previously abducted boys help in some way

About Johnny's paper route, did he deliver papers every day or just on Sunday?

 

[missmuffit]

I lived about 30 minutes from Des Moines when the kidnapping took place. I was 9 when it happened and it put the scare into myself and all of my friends. Noreen became a spokesman for all missing children and did talks in all of the local towns around Central Iowa. It was a huge event to hit the little town that I grew up in. She spoke at the local high school, made Johnny seem much more personal to me, and then all of the kids had their finger prints done by the local LE. She also took a big role in helping with the search of Eugene Martin. I was pretty good friends with Eugene's cousin and remember how awful it was for my friend at this time.

This was a scary time to be a kid in Iowa. Things like this just did not happen or so we all thought. In regards to how Noreen is now acting, I think that living with the stress has just gotten to her. I do know that her divorce from her husband was pretty bad, as in being public fodder. I can also not really remember Johnny's father or siblings being very vocal about what happened and what was going on with the case. I recently talked about the case with my mom who still lives in Central Iowa and Noreen does not have a very good rep concerning all of the odd things she has done over the years.

While John Sr. may not have been looked at closely by LE, I would take everything that Noreen has said about him with a grain of salt. I just can't see how if she thought he had something to do with Johnny's disappearance, why she stayed with him for so long after the fact. I also feel that if he did even half of what she has accused him of, LE would have been able to catch him in the act. This is however just my own opinion.

 

[missmuffit]

Oh, and I saw this in another thread -- anybody think it could be a match for Johnny Gosch?
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/UnidentifiedDetails.asp?id=U0505002

When looking at the pictures side by side there are a lot of similarities between the john doe from Texas and Johnny. The time frame would also fit with when he was taken and when the remains were found.

 

[laini]

Mismuffit-

I grew up in Des Moines when Johnny and Eugene went missing. I can relate to your experience growing up here. I had paperroutes in Des Moines as a child, but they were not early moring routes. But it was always on my mind, though I was not a boy. THanks for sharing your thoughts and welcome to websleuths!

About the Doe in Texas, I thought he could be johnny awhile ago, but assumed he would have been ruled out. (I know - we shiouldn't assume that).

 

[Mr. E]

Anyone know who to get in touch with to submit the Texas Doe as a possible match for Johnny?

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Mr. E, or anyone, has Noreen submitted DNA into CODIS? According to the Doenetwork, this UID had DNA submitted to the TX database, I'm not sure if that cross references CODIS. It also says this guy is possibly a racial mix.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/299umtx.html

His clothing size would be very consistent with Johnny's size when he was abducted. There is contact information on the Doe Link.

 

[Teresa Larson]

I couldnt more strongly disagree.The Washington Times and Washington Post have been reporting this for years since the 80s. Lobbyists have been using prostitutes (including underage children) to blackmail politicians for years its very common in Washington. Reporters even have their credit card reciepts of the transactions.These lobbyists also have ties to the CIA and other intelligence groups foreign and domestic. One of the latest politicians caught was Congressman Randal Cunningham for his association with lobbyist Jack Abramov.
Here is a website with articles from the New York Times, Washington Times and other newspapers about Craig Spence another lobbyist\blackmailer\pimp and former abc correspondant who had dealings with the CIA and Larry King. http://www.newsmakingnews.com/sexandcapitol7,18,01.htm#article6

I welcome any comments on this , thanks

I would have to see the REAL article from the Washington Post and the New York Times. This is from some other paper and who knows what their source of information was. It's like the Star/Trash newspapers by the check out stand at the grocery stores. I'd also like to know who took the credit cards for the prostitutes fee?? You have to be set up with the credit card companies to be able to do this not unless you are using Paypay or someone like that. Where are these receipts at?? I'd like to see them. You don't think it's a little strange that out of all the little boys in the Unites States the government could have gotten some how they just happened to go to Des Moines Iowa and accidentally came across Johnny delivering the newspapers and kidnapped him. :waitasec: I gave my opinion of what happened to Johnny He was kidnapped by someone he knew and killed. His father knows how loony Noreen is that's why he never comments when she is talking crazy about him or anything else.

 

[Mr. E]

I would have to see the REAL article from the Washington Post and the New York Times. This is from some other paper and who knows what their source of information was. It's like the Star/Trash newspapers by the check out stand at the grocery stores. I'd also like to know who took the credit cards for the prostitutes fee?? You have to be set up with the credit card companies to be able to do this not unless you are using Paypay or someone like that. Where are these receipts at?? I'd like to see them. You don't think it's a little strange that out of all the little boys in the Unites States the government could have gotten some how they just happened to go to Des Moines Iowa and accidentally came across Johnny delivering the newspapers and kidnapped him. :waitasec: I gave my opinion of what happened to Johnny He was kidnapped by someone he knew and killed. His father knows how loony Noreen is that's why he never comments when she is talking crazy about him or anything else.

This bolded bit is what I have always wondered about. Why Johnny? The answer is always "he was chosen because the buyer wanted a certain look. What look? A tall boy with brown hair and blue eyes? Why did the buyer need a kid from Des Moines, IA? I teach at a high school, and tall boys with brown hair and blue eyes are all over the place. I just don't get why Johnny was "chosen," as Noreen states.

That's why I think either his father had something to do with it, or someone else who knew and had access to Johnny was responsible.

 

[rbeck]

I would have to see the REAL article from the Washington Post and the New York Times. This is from some other paper and who knows what their source of information was. It's like the Star/Trash newspapers by the check out stand at the grocery stores. I'd also like to know who took the credit cards for the prostitutes fee?? You have to be set up with the credit card companies to be able to do this not unless you are using Paypay or someone like that. Where are these receipts at?? I'd like to see them. You don't think it's a little strange that out of all the little boys in the Unites States the government could have gotten some how they just happened to go to Des Moines Iowa and accidentally came across Johnny delivering the newspapers and kidnapped him. :waitasec: I gave my opinion of what happened to Johnny He was kidnapped by someone he knew and killed. His father knows how loony Noreen is that's why he never comments when she is talking crazy about him or anything else.

Here is the article from the Washington Times from June 1989 they have pictures of the credit card reciepts the head reporter Paul Rodriquez has alot of them he printed pictures of a few.His sources seem reliable

http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/WashingtonTimes.htm

Here is a link with articles from the Washington Times and New York Times about lobbyist\blackmailer Craig Spence
http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/otherfranklin.htm

http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/webpages2/GOP.htm

Here is a link with an article about Senator Barney Frank who was caught running a male prostitution service from his home.After He was caught he threatened to out some Republican congressmen he said were involved with underage prostitutes. Paul Bonacci mentions being involved with him along with Senator Gerry Studds another openly gay senator who was arrested for soliciting sex from a teenage boy

http://www.thelawparty.org/FranklinCoverup/webpages2/BarneyFrank.htm

 

[rbeck]

I would have to see the REAL article from the Washington Post and the New York Times. This is from some other paper and who knows what their source of information was. It's like the Star/Trash newspapers by the check out stand at the grocery stores. I'd also like to know who took the credit cards for the prostitutes fee?? You have to be set up with the credit card companies to be able to do this not unless you are using Paypay or someone like that. Where are these receipts at?? I'd like to see them. You don't think it's a little strange that out of all the little boys in the Unites States the government could have gotten some how they just happened to go to Des Moines Iowa and accidentally came across Johnny delivering the newspapers and kidnapped him. :waitasec: I gave my opinion of what happened to Johnny He was kidnapped by someone he knew and killed. His father knows how loony Noreen is that's why he never comments when she is talking crazy about him or anything else.

Here is Tom Brokaw talking about the Times articles also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5OJPeHCmhA

Here is Connie Chung white washing the same Washington Times article
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU-k-tfiPfs

 

[Teresa Larson]

Here is Tom Brokaw talking about the Times articles also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5OJPeHCmhA

Here is Connie Chung white washing the same Washington Times article
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU-k-tfiPfs

They didn't say anything about a pedophile ring. Connie Chung even said it didn't include any government or high ranking officials. I read most of the articles too. They had gay men prostitutes and they paid them. That's their business if they want to involve themselves in that kind of stuff. With all of this being said you still haven't convinced me that the government kidnapped Johnny. We are talking a kid from Des Moines Iowa. There are lots of pedophiles out there anybody could have grabbed Johnny. However like I have said he was at church camp 2 weeks before. rbeck I believe you must be a relative or friend of Noreen's since you have your mind made up as to what happened to Johnny and because you think Noreen is a sane person. I am sorry but you will never get any of us to believe what you do about this case. IMO Happy Holidays!