IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[shadowraiths]

Imho, one problem that occurs with time passed and theories proffered is that original info can get confusing. With that in mind, here is an old news paper clipping (from February 24, 1984), that again, seems to indicate that Johnny may have been a victim of some sort of child trafficking / *advertiser censored* operation.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

...here is an old news paper clipping (from February 24, 1984), that again, seems to indicate that Johnny may have been a victim of some sort of child trafficking / *advertiser censored* operation.

SW: In reading the article, the only thing that jumps out at me is the story of "Johnny" being dragged away from the witness and the series of phone calls that Noreen recieved from "Johnny". (I have placed "Johnny" in quotes to merely indicate that neither story can be conclusively linked to the real Johnny.) If either or both of these stories are true, then it appears that Johnny was taken and kept alive by someone for a period of time. But I think the statement "...Johnny may have been a victim of some sort of child trafficking / *advertiser censored* operation" may be drawing a conclusion beyond what the evidence dictates.

As I have stated before, I think that it is quite possible that Johnny may have been held for a period of time by a pedophile (or even two as one of the above stories indicates). But I do not see any evidence of organized trafficking of children between pervs in the stories. In fact, I would postulate that Johnny visiting a mall with two men or being allowed to make multiple phone calls to Noreen, if true, would point away from a sophisticated trafficking operation. Both actions would have far too dangerous and risky for such a ring to have ever let occur. I can envision a couple of pedophile losers being that reckless or stupid, but not any group with any sort of sophistication to their operation.

 

[shadowraiths]

A point that I made several months ago, but has yet to answered be to (at least) my satisfaction: If Johnny is alive and visited Noreen briefly in the 1990's, why is he still in hiding?

Johnny was 12 years old when he was abducted. If he is indeed still alive, he was very likely subjected to years of abuse at the hands of his abductors. Early reports seem to indicate that he may have been drugged.

Drugging or not, in this context, the psychological implications are obvious. For example, the stockholm syndrome (which generally occurs early on in the abduction phase) and limited cognitive perception (which is more of an over time result). The latter involves somewhat stunted developmental growth due to lack of experiential knowledge that is gained by those of us in the 'free world' through making choices and dealing with the outcomes of those choices. The result of the limited cognitive perception is a belief that one has no options but to stay with their captor. Additionally, if he did, in fact, survive, the chance that he is now an abuser, is quite high. And this is yet another compelling motivator that keeps victims (of all sorts) from escaping their situation once they are adults.

 

[shadowraiths]

But I think the statement "...Johnny may have been a victim of some sort of child trafficking / *advertiser censored* operation" may be drawing a conclusion beyond what the evidence dictates.

Perhaps so. I do tend to, at this time, lean toward the possibility that GPB and his accomplices (or someone similar to his ilk) were involved in abducting Johnny. Do I think they are a nationally situated and sophisticated group of child pornographers? Nope. What I am trying to say here, is that I think that the point you're raising—which, in context of what you're trying to say, is logically valid—is more of a definitional difference than an operational difference. In other words, when I use the term, traffickers/pornographers, I'm not necessarily referring to some world or nation-wide syndicate. Hth to clarify!

 

[shadowraiths]

More grist for the mill...

March 31, 1983

December 23, 1983

February 24, 1984

​

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Your points make sense to me. I see the possibilities in descending order as: (1) abducted and murdered shorthly thereafter by a solo or small group of predators, (2) abducted and held for a time by a solo or small group of predators, and a distant (3) abducted and held for a time by large group of predators such as the Franklin Conspiracy.

I personally do not put much faith in Noreen's identification of Johnny either in 1984 or in 1999. Noreen has always claimed that "A mother will know her child" which I would normally agree with, but Noreen seems to be an exception to that maxim. She is undecided if Jeff Gannon is Johnny and her actions following the visit by the adult "Johnny" in the 1990's still leave her looking for the 12 year old Johnny instead of searching for the adult JG. Noreen understandably wants to find her son, but it appears that this desire has overshadowed her discernment in filtering out red herrings in the search.

 

[dorca the just]

Shadow, I clicked on the subject links. Are they heavy graphics-type things? Didn’t find any text.
Anyway, the years of abuse JG might have suffered at such a young age may indeed have stunted his cognitive abilities to reason out that he can now escape his captors for good and all and expose them to the world. That makes sense. I’m not sure this is what happened here, and the problem I do have with the March ’97 visit thing is that it went largely uncorroborated except from NG. However, as I might have mentioned earlier on, if JG learned how to be stealthy, if he had the resources to find that his mother had moved away from the home he never got to fully grow up in, then I suppose he planned things this way so she might be protected. Dunno. I’m attempting to have an open mind here.
Certainly the stuff from ’83-’86 does still seem to me to indicate that JG had been abducted and kept alive for some time. Interpretation of this evidence — the supposed sightings, the supposed phone calls to his home, the message on the bathroom wall, the 1988 letter — all these, I suppose, stand a 50 percent chance of being hoaxes. I do have to admit that Jimmy Gibson’s brand does bother me. If he wasn’t actually branded by a band of pedoes, it begs the question who branded him, and why? Did he do it himself? How? Where did he get a branding iron or whatever was used? I have far from dismissed entirely his association with JG, and the brand is the reason why. Maybe I really should call Jimmy Gibson’s father in Wisconsin, assuming I can get the number, and assuming I don’t sound like a jerk.
And at the risk of getting people’s nannygoat, I still wonder why Jeff Gannon just doesn’t go ahead with a DNA. Yes, it may be ridiculous that he has all this speculation about him. But I don’t know. If it were I in his place, I still might sigh and say, “Fine. You want a test? Here’s your test. I’m not whom you suspect me to be, but all right already. Now could you please pound salt and get out of my life once the results are in?” But that’s just me.

 

[shadowraiths]

I personally do not put much faith in Noreen's identification of Johnny either in 1984 or in 1999. Noreen has always claimed that "A mother will know her child" which I would normally agree with, but Noreen seems to be an exception to that maxim.

Considering what she has gone through, I can't say that I'm surprised. Esp considering the phone calls that, if they were pranks, were pretty offensive in and of themselves. Add to that, the Randy Alan Buckalew bit? Can you imagine being the parent of a missing child who is already agonizing and then going through what these people went through?

She is undecided if Jeff Gannon is Johnny and her actions following the visit by the adult "Johnny" in the 1990's still leave her looking for the 12 year old Johnny instead of searching for the adult JG.

Which isn't surprising at all, from the psychological point of view. After all, for her, Johnny's visage is frozen in time.

As a quick aside, I have a friend whose son went missing (very diff circumstances, lost at sea in a boating accident) well over 40 years ago. She says that even though she knows in her heart that he is gone, she cannot help but to sometimes dream that he will one day come walking through her front door. Some of her friends get irritated with her bc she hurts to this day. I feel sad that she not only lost her son but that there was no means for true closure. Bc the fact is, miracles can and do happen, and without a body, there will always be that hope, no matter how slim.

That being said, I feel nothing but compassion for Noreen Gosch, whom, from the very beginning, was assailed by utter and complete assholes (i.e., the threatening call, GPB, possible prank calls pretending to be Johnny, etcetera), and later assailed by the tin foil hat crowd and their reptilian manchurian candidates. In fact, in light of what she has gone through, I am surprised she is fairing as well as she seems to be, and I hold nothing but the utmost respect for the woman, and hope that she will one day find the answers to that which she seeks.

 

[shadowraiths]

And at the risk of getting people’s nannygoat, I still wonder why Jeff Gannon just doesn’t go ahead with a DNA.

I agree. Even though I doubt he is Gosch, imho, he should just take the DNA test so that chapter can be closed.

Oh and. The pics? Check your options to make sure you have view embedded graphics checked. And, if it is, pls let me know and I will post the links.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

And at the risk of getting people’s nannygoat, I still wonder why Jeff Gannon just doesn’t go ahead with a DNA. Yes, it may be ridiculous that he has all this speculation about him. But I don’t know. If it were I in his place, I still might sigh and say, “Fine. You want a test? Here’s your test. I’m not whom you suspect me to be, but all right already. Now could you please pound salt and get out of my life once the results are in?” But that’s just me.

I think that is me also. I would do anything (within reason) to have the media circus move on to the next non-story to feed the 24 hour news beast. One swab with a Q-tip and this whole thing goes away. I suspect that, despite his protestations to the contrary, he is as much of a media-*advertiser censored* as he was a man-*advertiser censored*.

 

[shefner]

Johnny was 12 years old when he was abducted. If he is indeed still alive, he was very likely subjected to years of abuse at the hands of his abductors. Early reports seem to indicate that he may have been drugged.

Drugging or not, in this context, the psychological implications are obvious. For example, the stockholm syndrome (which generally occurs early on in the abduction phase) and limited cognitive perception (which is more of an over time result). The latter involves somewhat stunted developmental growth due to lack of experiential knowledge that is gained by those of us in the 'free world' through making choices and dealing with the outcomes of those choices. The result of the limited cognitive perception is a belief that one has no options but to stay with their captor. Additionally, if he did, in fact, survive, the chance that he is now an abuser, is quite high. And this is yet another compelling motivator that keeps victims (of all sorts) from escaping their situation once they are adults.

Shadow, isn't this "limited cognitive perception" the very thing that kept Shawn Hornbeck with his captor---even though he knew his parents were still out there looking for him (as evidenced by his computer message to them, under an assumed identity, of course)? People were shocked that he had been given so much freedom....riding his bike all day long, going on dates and visiting the mall, eating out with friends and spending the night with them, etc. Yet it seemed unbelievable that he wouldn't try to run or admit the truth to the cops he encountered.
How about Elizabeth Smart, who was kidnapped from her home? When people asked her if she was "Elizabeth Smart," she would deny it. She even denied it when the police found her....at first, she refused to admit her true identity and was insistant on staying with her abductor.

 

[dorca the just]

Seems to be the only logical conclusion to be reached — unless he really is Gosch. I still doubt it, but the possibility is, I think, there. But that’s all theory, and anything’s possible. Supposedly I’m related to King John of England on my mother’s side, so maybe I should be in line for the throne in case something happens to all the Windsors, eh?

 

[shadowraiths]

Shadow, isn't this "limited cognitive perception" the very thing that kept Shawn Hornbeck with his captor---even though he knew his parents were still out there looking for him (as evidenced by his computer message to them, under an assumed identity, of course)? People were shocked that he had been given so much freedom....riding his bike all day long, going on dates and visiting the mall, eating out with friends and spending the night with them, etc. Yet it seemed unbelievable that he wouldn't try to run or admit the truth to the cops he encountered.
How about Elizabeth Smart, who was kidnapped from her home? When people asked her if she was "Elizabeth Smart," she would deny it. She even denied it when the police found her....at first, she refused to admit her true identity and was insistant on staying with her abductor.

Thank you for bringing up Shawn Hornbeck and Elizabeth Smart, shefner. Lest we forget, Shawn helped his abductor kidnap another child before he was found. There is also the case of the 10 year old Australian girl (Natascha Kampusch) who was kidnapped in 1998 and found in 2006. And yes, these exemplify what I was speaking to, and why I, personally, do not find Johnny's brief appearance—if it was indeed him—to be particularly odd.

 

[shefner]

I thought an interesting point about Gosch's visit to his mom in '97 was that he was accompanied by another young man. If Noreen was going to make up Johnny's visit, why would she add this detail?

 

[shadowraiths]

I thought an interesting point about Gosch's visit to his mom in '97 was that he was accompanied by another young man. If Noreen was going to make up Johnny's visit, why would she add this detail?

Actually, I do not think she made it up. I am simply not wholly convinced that it was indeed Johnny who paid the visit. And, if it wasn't (and in light of the other quite bizarre things that have and do surround this case, imho, that is a possibility), it raises far more questions than it answers.

 

[christine2448]

Thank you for bringing up Shawn Hornbeck and Elizabeth Smart, shefner. Lest we forget, Shawn helped his abductor kidnap another child before he was found. There is also the case of the 10 year old Australian girl (Natascha Kampusch) who was kidnapped in 1998 and found in 2006. And yes, these exemplify what I was speaking to, and why I, personally, do not find Johnny's brief appearance—if it was indeed him—to be particularly odd.

Speaking of this, this just went up on Natasha's thread:

It gets worse and i didn't think it could.

Police 'held back sex-slave photos' found at Natascha Kampusch kidnap house

Photographs showing Natascha Kampusch being used as a sex slave by her kidnapper were hidden by Austrian police to avoid a political scandal, according to previously unreleased documents.

***

Investigators were not allowed to view the pictures and consider charges against other people because senior politicians did not want a scandal before a general election, according to the documents.
The paperwork shows that Herwig Haidinger, then the chief of the Austrian criminal police, complained in an e-mail to the Interior Ministry that another senior police officer, Major-General Nikolaus Koch, had ordered the destruction of the evidence.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3761084.ece

Paedophile ring, for sure. at high levels.

This was also posted there. http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/dutroux/evil_1.html

 

[dorca the just]

Hmm. I actually wasn't aware that Hornbeck helped Devlin abduct the second boy. My understanding was that he (Devlin) brought the kid back to the apartment without Hornbeck's assist. But then, I suppose that if this is the case, it's entirely possible that JG could have been forced by his abductor(s) to help take other boys as well.

 

[Mr. E]

I was just coming on here to post about Natascha. I don't hold much weight with the conspiracy theory, but it's looking like Natascha may have lived through what many suspect Johnny went through.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3761084.ece

I am still on the fence and leaning toward other possibilities as to Johnny's fate, but there's no denying that high-ranking pedophile rings do exist, at least according to what's come to light about Natascha.

 

[shefner]

Hmm. I actually wasn't aware that Hornbeck helped Devlin abduct the second boy. My understanding was that he (Devlin) brought the kid back to the apartment without Hornbeck's assist. But then, I suppose that if this is the case, it's entirely possible that JG could have been forced by his abductor(s) to help take other boys as well.

I think this is what we see of these pedophiles....if the boys are allowed to live, they are groomed to help the abductor "bait" other boys. This is what happened with Paul Bonacci. He was a victim that was forced to help kidnap other boys and then have sex with them. Very sad....

That places a lot of guilt on the victim.

Then look at the case of Steven Stayner. He was abducted and abused for years by a single individual. But when he grew older and his abductor kidnapped another young boy (Timmy White), Steven was driven to action. Only then did he decide to get help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stayner

 

[Capt.]

Though not near as a high profile case, the method in the Colleen Stan abduction was from magazine published methods, so this information and, may I say, "encouragement" was available to many others. Many have taken the book "The Girl in the Box" as inspiration for their crimes.

Another book is the "Story of O", which I had just found out.

Since I am on this published info kick, there are also the movie "Cube" that have inspired some of the longer term crimes. Maybe I shouldn't say crimes, as they have not been arrested.