IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[Capt.]

I think this is what we see of these pedophiles....if the boys are allowed to live, they are groomed to help the abductor "bait" other boys. This is what happened with Paul Bonacci. He was a victim that was forced to help kidnap other boys and then have sex with them. Very sad....

That places a lot of guilt on the victim.

Then look at the case of Steven Stayner. He was abducted and abused for years by a single individual. But when he grew older and his abductor kidnapped another young boy (Timmy White), Steven was driven to action. Only then did he decide to get help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stayner

I should add Carl Stayner also which was not a part of the abduction, but carried out his own. I believe much could be hypothesized about this connection.

 

[Capt.]

While these things are not directly related to Johnny, the MO's could be applied to his disappearance.

 

[Roy Harrold]

"Police 'held back sex-slave photos' found at Natascha Kampusch kidnap house
Photographs showing Natascha Kampusch being used as a sex slave by her kidnapper were hidden by Austrian police to avoid a political scandal, according to previously unreleased documents."

It will already be too late, probably, but I urge everyone who has gotten, from the linked stories on timesonline, certain impressions:

a) that Austrian police were ordered to destroy so-called 'sex slave photos' of Kampusch because the photos implicated prominent Austrians as co-abusers, or
b) that the "scandal" Austrian officials may have been seeking to prevent was the involvement of "a sex-slave ring" in the Kampusch case...

to read the article (and the two related articles linked within it) very slowly and carefully.

I don't think such impressions are supported by the info in those articles, as a careful reading will demonstrate. I can understand why people might have drawn such impressions ("a" and/or "b" above) - the main article contains either careless reporting by the writer or a very poor editing job on it.

There are two distinct stories or 'threads' intertwined throughout this article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3761084.ece

One story [C], concerns potentially scandalous incompetence by Austrian police early in the case, prior to Kampusch escaping:
"Shortly before a general election in October 2006, a police chief discovered that Kampusch’s abductor had been identified as a key suspect within weeks of her disappearance but nothing had been done. The interior minister at the time of the election appears to have suppressed the news and officials misled the press on her behalf."
"The scandal was revealed by Herwig Haidinger, former head of the Federal Criminal Police Office, who discovered the report soon after Ms Kampusch's escape. He claims to have been ordered by superiors, including the cabinet of the then Interior Minister, not to investigate his findings in order to avoid "creating a scandal involving the police before the upcoming elections".
"Meanwhile, prosecutors and the Internal Affairs department are investigating whether the ministry made illegal attempts to cover up police negligence."

The other story [D], concerns allegations made in the German newsmagazine Stern, that: "police had found pictures that showed Ms Kampusch being sexually abused by friends of Priklopil, 44",
and that: "police were ordered to destroy or hide" "photographs on two mini-DVDs that would have linked others with the abuse of Ms Kampusch"
and that "Investigators were not allowed to view the pictures and consider charges against other people" because "senior politicians did not want a scandal before a general election".
That storyline also contains allegations that "documents, which were obtained by Heute, the Austrian daily newspaper" provide corroboration for the allegations made in the pages of Stern.

"The documents" which are alleged to corroborate allegations in Stern, are not listed or described in any terms other than "the documents" or "documents", making it very difficult to assess whether or not these alleged documents do in fact corroborate allegations in Stern - allegations that evidence was destroyed to prevent investigation of deceased maniac-sicko Wolfgang Priklopil "friends" (or anyone else) as co-perpetrators for the imprisonment & abuse suffered by Kampusch.

The only description of one of these alleged documents, is this one:
"The paperwork shows that Herwig Haidinger, then the chief of the Austrian criminal police, complained in an e-mail to the Interior Ministry that another senior police officer, Major-General Nikolaus Koch, had ordered the destruction of the evidence".

This description of paperwork showing an e-mailed complaint that evidence had been ordered destroyed (storyline [D]) is immediately followed by several paragraphs discussing the possibility of police incompetence early in the case and allegations that there had been a cover-up of that incompetence to avoid "a police scandal" right before an election in 2006 (storyline [C]).

The juxtaposition of the storylines in this manner creates a false impression that Mr Haidinger's statement confirming - "he received direct instructions from the Interior Ministry not to proceed" - corroborates the allegation that the investigation was stopped because "senior politicians" wanted to prevent charges being laid against other people Wolfgang Priklopil may have known, when in fact Haidinger's statement supports that investigation was stopped to prevent a police incompetence scandal:
“We don't need a police scandal prior to the parliamentary elections,” Mr Haidinger quoted officials from the ministry as saying".

There is nothing in the timesonline articles that demonstrates, documents or exposes a "high-ranking pedophile ring" involvement in the case of Natascha Kampusch.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Christine - could you please post here a link to the Natasha thread you referred to (or otherwise help me to find where it is on the site)?

Thanks.

 

[shadowraiths]

I don't think such impressions are supported by the info in those articles, as a careful reading will demonstrate. I can understand why people might have drawn such impressions ("a" and/or "b" above) - the main article contains either careless reporting by the writer or a very poor editing job on it.

Again, I ask, why are you so seemingly committed to deny the existence of organized trafficking involving high-ranking officials? To the point, it seems, to not only vapidly ridicule those who accept this as a very real possibility but to also assign them to the tin foil hat crowd? I am not intending to be insulting however your pattern of adamant denial and discompassionate remarks about the victims perplex me.

 

[shadowraiths]

Christine - could you please post here a link to the Natasha thread you referred to (or otherwise help me to find where it is on the site)?

I'm not Christine but here you go: click here

 

[christine2448]

I'm not Christine but here you go: click here

Thanks shadowraiths!

 

[Roy Harrold]

Today seems to be my day for mythbusting in this thread.

Myth - Jeff Gannon/Guckert has refused to be involved in a DNA test that would demonstrate that he cannot be Johnny Gosch.

Not true. You can watch the man (Gannon/Guckert) state publicly his willingness to be involved in a DNA test if such were really necessary, here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZADx7Bwi9M

But, what expectations did people have about this? Did they expect this guy to track down Noreen Gosch, make all necessary arrangements and then pay for the testing himself? Why should he do any of that, especially when the demands for proof of his non-Johnny-ness all come from the ranks of True Believers in conspiracy theories that are (or, were) irrelevant in his life and that he probably could care less about?

Why would he do any of those things, when the whole idea was preposterous from the very start? The "Gannon=Gosch canard" is an invention of conspiracy theorists. You can read the step-by-step invention of this utter nonsense on the Democratic Underground site. You can see for yourself as the three principle architects of this hoax - Andy Stephenson, Jeff Wells and a female "victim" - pile layer after layer of wild speculation and outright fantasy on top of each other in the process of its creation. This was all before the extreme-right tinfoil hat brigade of Rense & company grabbed the idea and instantly declared it 100% totally proven beyond all doubt (and, somehow, further proof that 'the jews' control everything and everyone - to boot).

Myth - Former Nebraska police chief Robert Wadman suspiciously refused to take blood tests that could have exonerated him of being the father of Alisha Owen's child.

In fact, Wadman did take the genetic tests that people continue to insist he is still avoiding, and 3 laboratories declared him to be not the father of that child.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Again, I ask, why are you so seemingly committed to deny the existence of organized trafficking involving high-ranking officials? To the point, it seems, to not only vapidly ridicule those who accept this as a very real possibility but to also assign them to the tin foil hat crowd? I am not intending to be insulting however your pattern of adamant denial and discompassionate remarks about the victims perplex me.

Why are you so seemingly committed to misrepresenting my opinions and positions on those issues? Please allow me to state, myself, what I do or do not accept to be a demonstrable reality.

- There have been "organized rings" of pedophiles. NAMBLA could be considered one of them, although PIE (pedophile information exchange) in the UK was arguably far closer to the image people have of a secretive underground cabal plotting all manner of sexual exploitation of children together, and collectively probably destroyed more victim lives than NAMBLA members can be shown to have wrought. There was (and may still be) a pedophile "colony" operating in Amsterdam for many years, with links to PIE and east european/Russian traffickers of child prostitutes and "slaves". After the fall of Communism in the former Soviet territories, Russian and Ukrainian mobsters ran sophisticated child kidnapping, *advertiser censored* and sale of children to pedophiles in Europe & Asia. Women, and children, are being sold into sex slavery from former Yugoslavian nation-states today, and slavery/human trafficking continues in and from various places in Africa. Some places in southeast asia, notably Thailand, continue to provide sex tourism for decadent Westerners as well as other asian nations that includes child sex-for-sale operations, and the sex trade in that corner of the world has been protected over the years by corrupted government and policing officials.

I am committed to sorting facts from fancies, documentation from mythology, and to confronting fear-mongering & witch-hunting behaviour.

Put the evidence in front of me, and I won't naysay it. Put rumors and myths in front of me and I'll debunk them.

 

[shadowraiths]

After the fall of Communism in the former Soviet territories, Russian and Ukrainian mobsters ran sophisticated child kidnapping, *advertiser censored* and sale of children to pedophiles in Europe & Asia. Women, and children, are being sold into sex slavery from former Yugoslavian nation-states today, and slavery/human trafficking continues in and from various places in Africa. Some places in southeast asia, notably Thailand, continue to provide sex tourism for decadent Westerners as well as other asian nations that includes child sex-for-sale operations, and the sex trade in that corner of the world has been protected over the years by corrupted government and policing officials.

Oops! You seem to have forgotten to include the United States, Canada, and Mexico.

 

[dorca the just]

On the record, I’d like to say that I did see the Jeff Gannon interview some time back that stated his willingness to be tested. Am I correct that this was in 2005? Am I also correct that since that time NG did agree to pay for the test herself? Am I mistaken that when approached about this, Gannon at that point refused? If I’m incorrect as to any of this, I will stand corrected; I’ve made far greater mistakes in my life than I’m possibly making right here and now, and they’ve had far more interesting consequences, I’m sure.
Let me add that I’m still on the fence about the whole govt.-sponsored pedo ring theory. Notwithstanding, I don’t believe Gannon ever took the test. That’s his choice. He may not be Gosch; he probably isn’t. But if I were Gannon and knew I wasn’t Gosch and I wanted all the speculation to stop so I could be left alone, I’d simply have gotten the test. Otherwise, I run the risk of being hounded all my life when I just want to live in peace. I get to have that peace, and all the speculation about whether I’m gosch or not simply stops and becomes useless. As an objective matter, even with all the evidence that says Gannon is not Gosch, no one, aside from Gannon himself, really knows whether or not he’s Gosch until the test is done and the results are in. Otherwise the possibilities are 50/50, and the strongest evidence for those who definitely and firmly believe Gannon is Gosch is the fact that there’s no evidence yet to prove it — at least in the form of cold hard genetic facts. But then, this is just one man’s opinion. I’ll withhold my judgment about the Austrian woman until I actually read through the subject articles, if I can. As for the allegations against Wadman having been disproved unequivocally, I have to say that this does shoot a hole in the Gosch case to some degree, since she claimed to have been a part of this ring, and that Wadman was one of the people at the center of it.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Oops! You seem to have forgotten to include the United States, Canada, and Mexico.

I didn't talk about the Caribbean, Central America, or former Nazi Paul Schaefer and his twisted cult in Chile (Schaefer was so 'connected' within the Pinochet regime that he seems to have been effectively untouchable while it lasted), either - I didn't feel it necessary to list every region, group or event that has provably been associated with some kind of organized exploitation of children, having demonstrated that I'm not inherently hostile to that whole idea.

Who knows what might be going on under our own noses right here in North America? It's not impossible for horrific things to be taking place in our society, obviously. There question is - is there credible, objective evidence to support specific claims in specific cases?

Returning to the alleged encounter between Noreen Gosch and an adult Johnny, and the implications of that...

It seems to me that if people are willing to accept what Noreen Gosch has said about that, and her related statements about the case in things such as the FAQ on johnnygosch.com, then there would be little point to investigating and/or uncovering and/or documenting the specific persons and circumstances involved in his disappearance.

Noreen has stated that all of those things are known to her, that Johnny is alive, that he is no longer captive by the people who took him, and that he is currently "in hiding", i.e. voluntarily hidden from public knowledge of his current circumstances & whereabouts:
http://www.johnnygosch.com/CaseFAQ.htm

If we do not accept that Noreen Gosch's claims represent facts, then we are faced with some possibilities:

1) Noreen is deliberately disseminating false info about the case, for whatever reasons - noble or otherwise. If that is true, then much of the publicly available information about the case, of which Noreen is the original source, also falls under suspicion and we are reduced to little more than the NCMEC poster info to work with.

2) Noreen believes what she's said, but is nevertheless mistaken. If that is the case, then Noreen is either deluded or she is the victim of frauds, con-artists and hoaxers.

I personally do not think Noreen Gosch is actively delusional.
I do strongly suspect that she has been victimized by cruel, heartless hoaxers.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Johnny, "Jimmy", the brandings and more:

Paul Bonnaci claims that he saw a "brand" on Johnny Gosch's buttocks, allegedly inflicted by their abductors/slave owners. Paul Bonnaci doesn't have this mark on the body himself, that I can find any reference to.

In 1992, AMW aired their Johnny Gosch episode, which was full of Bonnaci's claims, allegations, stories. "After the show aired, Noreen Gosch received a 14 page letter from a boy named "Jimmy" who said the same men who had abducted her son had abducted him and he told her that Johnny was still alive."

Any statements by "Jimmy", to Noreen or subsequently on the later AMW, which appear to bolster Bonacci's claims/stories through similar claims/stories, could simply have been lifted from the 1992 AMW episode.

"Jimmy" was interviewed on a 1993 AMW episode, and showed off a "similar" "brand" on his ankle, which he claimed was inflicted by the same people who supposedly branded Johnny.

"On August 27th, 2006, two photos were left at the home of Noreen Gosch. In one photo a young boy is tied up and gagged and a brand mark is seen on his upper arm, which surprisingly appears identical to the brand mark on "Jimmy's"ankle that AMW videotaped in 1993. It is also identical to the one Paul Bonacci described to AMW in 1992 that he claimed to have seen on Johnny Gosch's rear end in the late 1980's" - AMW

The branding which Bonacci stated was on Johnny's buttocks now appears on the upper-arm of a boy in a photo alleged to be Johnny. Suspiciously, this upper-arm brand "appears identical to the brand mark on "Jimmy's"ankle that AMW videotaped in 1993". I say suspiciously, because neither Bonacci nor "Jimmy" ever mentioned Johnny having such a brand on his upper-arm, prior to the photo being sent to Noreen. Also, the kind of "branding" described by Bonacci & "Jimmy" was of the cattle-brand variety - which causes "skin spreading", to varying degrees, from the point of impact (the "iron" itself). Brands inflicted in that manner shouldn't look identical to each other, they should have "smeared" to varying degrees, particularly on different parts of the body:

http://www.ronjones.org/Handouts/BodyArt.pdf

But that's actually irrelevant, because the "brand" on the photograph was a photoshopped-in fake anyway. That fact was discussed in detail here when the photos first surfaced.

"Brands" are not as uncommon as some people may have assumed. They are, and have been, a form of "body art" with similar purposes to that of tattooing. Prisoners, gang members and other groups sometimes use brands as membership identifiers.

It's conceivable, that Bonnaci and "Jimmy" really did know each other prior to the AMW episodes airing, but they could just as easily have met in prison as anywhere else. "Jimmy"'s brand could have been related to a prison gang and not to a pedophile ring. It could have served as a inspiration for Bonnaci's claims about Johnny Gosch being branded, if "Jimmy" and Bonnaci did time together.

The "Johnny Gosch was here" message written in red nail polish on a bathroom wall of a Denver restaraunt appeared there in 1991. Johnny would have been 21 at that time. However, Bonacci claimed that he "recalled how he, Johnny, and Mike went into the bathroom and Johnny painted "Johnny Gosch was here" on the wall." That event would have to have happened between 1982 and 1986, because the boys allegedly escaped from their captors shortly after that and supposedly ended up in "Jimmy Gibson"'s parent's basement. 1986 is, obviously, many years away from 1991.

 

[Capt.]

Just a quick note Roy. I have never seen brands before as you have discribed.

I have seen brands appear/disappear from "triggers", such as body memories, but that doesn't apply to your posts info.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Just a quick note Roy. I have never seen brands before as you have discribed.

I have seen brands appear/disappear from "triggers", such as body memories, but that doesn't apply to your posts info.

My description may be inadequate, or unclear.

I included a link about body art & branding, but here's another one that is probably better:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art10006.asp

You can see the effect I was trying to describe in the first two photos, which show one of the brands being applied in the first photo and the spreading of the lines that results, in the middle brand of the three shown in the second photo. That spread may differ depending on things like how "soft" or muscular the area of the body is. In any case, the results are unlikely to be "identical" on different locations of different people's bodies.

 

[dorca the just]

So if the brand was on the upper arm rather than on the buttock, where Gibson/Bonacci said it was, the odds probably are better than even that the boy in the picture was not the original JG. Makes sense.
I also noticed the discrepancy early on about the message found in 1991. JG definitely would have been 21 going on 22 if that were written in the summer of that particular year. I do know that Bonacci claims to have been with JG when he wrote the message, which he probably wasn’t if it was written in ’91. Wasn’t he still in prison then? I also think it’s interesting that if the message were written between 1982 and 1986, that it was not discovered until five to nine years after it was written. Any way to tell how long ago something like that could have been written? I assume nail polish would fade over time, or the writing would otherwise have to be corrupted in some fashion over a period of years.
Things that make you go hmm.

 

[shadowraiths]

You know... one thing the human mind is great at, is recognizing patterns. Our interpretation of those patterns is another story altogether. That's why we see... oh... idunno... angels in the clouds... elvis... take your pick. What I am saying here is, imvnsho, the "so-called" brand in that picture is a moot point bc it is simply not a brand, or a tat, or any other form of body art. In fact, the skin discoloration (if even remotely meaningful, and I personally, do not think it is) looks more like fingerprint bruises than anything else.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

...the "so-called" brand in that picture is a moot point bc it is simply not a brand, or a tat, or any other form of body art. In fact, the skin discoloration (if even remotely meaningful, and I personally, do not think it is) looks more like fingerprint bruises than anything else.

Except that Noreen points to that "brand" on the arm as confirmation that this is Johnny and Bonnaci was telling the truth. Like Roy, I believe the brand is a photoshopped alteration to an existing photo - I have even seen this same photo when it first appeared without the brand.

Once again, the mother of JG, who would "be able to identify her own son", got it wrong.

 

[dorca the just]

So then if what looks like a brand is bruising or fingerprints, and if the picture was taken within hours or days after JG’s disappearance/abduction, presumably this would have been pre-brand, assuming the brand were where Gibson and Bonacci described? Could be. In some ways it’s frustrating and intriguing at the same time to have all these options and possibilities. On we go, then.

 

[Capt.]

My description may be inadequate, or unclear.

I included a link about body art & branding, but here's another one that is probably better:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art10006.asp

You can see the effect I was trying to describe in the first two photos, which show one of the brands being applied in the first photo and the spreading of the lines that results, in the middle brand of the three shown in the second photo. That spread may differ depending on things like how "soft" or muscular the area of the body is. In any case, the results are unlikely to be "identical" on different locations of different people's bodies.

I was referring more to the location in regards to the scaring. I haven't seen them in the locations you mentioned.

The body memory burns which disappear/appear are not burns that go as deep as your example. I would say they are at 2nd degree. It is rather spooky having a person break out with these patterns out of the blue. Blistering following the appearance. A cellular response to a conditioned stimuli, much the same as Pavlov's dog.