IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[mysterymax]

I was in the middle of posting a reply when the system booted me out, even though I was logged in. Has that ever happened to anyone?

My reply was: I would like to see pigs fly, but it's not going to happen. Does anyone of sound mind actually believe that the President of the United States of America could possibly be involved in a pedophile ring? Get back on your meds, people.

One of the avenues of my livelihood is crime writing, and I've spoken with many professional investigators. All of them--not most, not some--but ALL of them have told me that the simplest, most obvious explanation is the correct one to pursue. Why invent a "ring" when a perfectly legitimate suspect, a serial kidnapper, lived right in the neighborhood? And with regard to a "conspiracy": the Mafia conspired for years, and initially no one knew who to pin the blame on. But they left EVIDENCE behind, calling cards, as it were. (Generally in the form of pulverized dead bodies.) Same with the Hell's Angels. But people on this link want us to believe that an invisiblem evidence-free, worldwide conspiracy exists, and further, that its invisibility and very LACK of evidence function as proofs of its existence! I'm sorry to say this, but as I wrote in an earlier post, some of these rantings could have (should have?) blown out the windows of a mental home.

Either Noreen Gosch is an exhibitionistic fraud or she's the most deluded human being on the face of the earth. Either situation is very sad indeed.

 

[mae]

I agree, a ring does not have to massive to be a "ring" does it?

Human trafficking is a very real possibility is it not?
http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/osdfs/factsheet.html

It seems farfetched, but apparently it's not as far reaching as one might think.

"Contrary to a common assumption, human trafficking is not just a problem in other countries. Cases of human trafficking have been reported in all 50 states, Washington D.C. , and some U.S. territories. Victims of human trafficking can be children or adults, U.S. citizens or foreign nationals, male or female. "

 

[thefragile7393]

Sadly, she doesn't sound like a person with any genuine intelligent insight into the reality of her grim situation.

She has quite a bit more insight than you or I, as she is the one living with it. SHe is also not a fraud...she clearly does have a child missing.

If you have read back through the threads on here, then you would know that few people who have gone through this case thoroughly fully believe everything that has been said about it. Pedophile rings do exist and it's entirely possible that someone involved with smaller ring could have taken him. Or maybe not.

We also do not know who Noreen met up with years ago. A mother knows her own child, and only someone who has been a mother can understand that. However, it's also possible that it was a cruel hoax and that she was actually fooled. No one but her was there, so neither you nor I can say that it was or was not him, at least, until more facts come out.

A good detective thoroughly goes through all the info, regardless of how implausible things seem. As with many convoluted stories, there are likely nuggets of truth within the bizzare tales that have been spun by many of the people who have attached themselves to the case. All we can do is assume that there are decent detectives who are trying to get all through this behind the scenes.

Finding out WHO took Johnny and working backwards would be a good place to start, and Dr. Doogie, who posts to this thread, is actually involved in a small way now in this case doing just that. Based on his working with the Anna Waters case, Sharon Marshall, and others, what he posts bears listening to. He has stated he has had contact with Noreen by email and that she is perfectly sane, even if some of the people who have attached themselves to her are not necessarily spouting rational theories.

 

[mysterymax]

Thanks, everyone, for your responses. Sadly, human trafficking DOES exist, and is made up of people who have entered this country illegally (or otherwise) lured here by promises of work...and of course, the so-called "throwaway" children who earn their meager incomes on the street. (And of course, prostitutes.) But there is simply no statistical correlation between the number of missing children and the existence of an invisible pedophile ring. And when I say Ms. Gosch is a fraud, it's not because I don't believe she has lost a precious child. I say so because when you have all the puzzle pieces in front of you but refuse to assemble them, there becomes a big disconnect between veracity and wishful thinking. Ms. Bosch herself has said that "the highest ranking" American government figures are involved in the conspiracy. In a parallel universe, perhaps, but not in the United States of America in the year 2008. Belief in something of this nature is clinical paranoia and a waste of precious resources and time.

 

[youshouldveknown]

From what I understand, the President (at the time, was it Carter or Reagan? Sorry, I was born after this case) hasn't been implicated.

I think it could be true that Johnny was kidnapped and sold into sex trafficking. I think it could very well have to do with the local government. Why not? Because only dirty old men have sex with little boys?

So if it's plausible that the local government was involved, why is it such a stretch that the federal government was involved? I think her theory plausible but not probable.

 

[jashrema]

I'm going to have to agree with the above. Nothing is really implausible in this world.

Sadly, human trafficking DOES exist, and is made up of people who have entered this country illegally (or otherwise) lured here by promises of work...and of course, the so-called "throwaway" children who earn their meager incomes on the street. (And of course, prostitutes.)

I agree with this to an extent. What you have stated is certainly true, but it is also VERY true that people involved in human trafficking/sex trade were born and bred right here in the USA. And it does not involve only throwaways, prostitutes, or illegals. I mean just WHO are all these children that are in child *advertiser censored*?? It's not just 10 or 20 children pictured and filmed over and over. It's literally thousands.
We live in a country that allows NAMBLA to exist for Gods sake. And was supported by Allen Ginsberg! NAMBLA was the largest group under the umbrella group Ipce (International Pedophile and Child Emancipation) whose goal is to bring acceptance that pedophilia is a sexual orientation, not a psychological disorder. To say that human trafficking only exists in the small group you named is naive at best. Pedophilia and child *advertiser censored* is human trafficking. They trade these childrens pictures, videos, and bodies, and it occurs everywhere in the world. It's only reasonable to assume that SOME percent of these children have been kidnapped for the sole purpose of being trafficked.

 

[Mr. E]

Also, some parents are responsible for involving their own children in trafficking and *advertiser censored*. There was that case last year (year before?) of the father in Canada who raped his 4-year-old daughter, streaming it online at the time. And that man who adopted a girl from Russia to exploit her. So when you ask "WHO are the children" involved, many times they are the victims of their own parents.

I am very suspect of John Leonard Gosch, Johnny's father. I think his actions have been more bizarre and suspect than Noreen's. It wouldn't surprise me to find out definitively that he was in some way responsible for Johnny's disappearance.

 

[mysterymax]

Hard Facts about (Satanic Ritual Abuse) or conspiracies in general:

Research into claims about mass kidnappings likewise deflates the hype: A recently released Justice Department study finds that almost all missing children are teenage runaways or throwaways. The typical kidnapping is committed by a divorced parent who has lost custody. As for stranger-abductions, the Washington D. C.-based National Center for Missing and Exploited Children currently lists about 240 children missing in the entire country. Still, much of the American public is convinced that molesters, sadists, kidnappers, and pornographers are major threats to our kids.

 

[thefragile7393]

Yes, this makes sense, if you go through NCMEC, the majority appear to be children of custody issues or runaways. I am not a believer in SRA and I don't buy into the "Satanic Panic" at all personally, though I believe that horrific things have happened to children.

Still, much of the American public is convinced that molesters, sadists, kidnappers, and pornographers are major threats to our kids.

Yes....because these things happen and keep happening. Go through this website and you'll see how many cases against children have been sexually motivated. It's real, it happens, and why is it so hard to believe it very well could have happened to Johnny?

It's already been acknowledged there's a lot of bizarre stuff that have been spun around in this case...but why discount EVERYTHING Noreen says because of that? That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater there.

And if you don't like conspiracy theories, you likely won't like what's been spun about the Passantinos and their credentials as "experts," BTW. Pretty looney stuff in their books and websites.

 

[mysterymax]

The Passantinos have been accused of being Satanists by the very people they've discredited. Looney, indeed. (Please read/see Arthur Miller's, THE CRUCIBLE or Lillian Hellman's SCOUNDREL TIME for further witch hunting adventures.) My point is, the more outrageous a story sounds, the more improbable it is. My point is, if Noreen Gosch were to go to any reputable, professional clinical psychologist and spill this stuff, she would be put on anti-psychotic meds. Instead she broadcasts its far and wide for all the world to view, and on a website, no less! She maintains that her credibility is undermined because the very people enlisted to help (FBI, cops, feds, etc.) are the very people involved in the conspiracy. How convenient for her. Now, of course human beings--and most unfortunately--kids, are exploited every single day--but generally by those closest to them. BY THOSE CLOSEST TO THEM. Or by the neighborhood perv. Not "those at the highest level of government." Come on, people.

 

[youshouldveknown]

Still, much of the American public is convinced that molesters, sadists, kidnappers, and pornographers are major threats to our kids.

Yes, because they don't just kidnap and kill kids. Pedophiles could be ANYONE. Watch 'To Catch a Predator' and then tell me that doesn't scare you.

Just because they aren't kidnapping children don't make them non-threatening.

 

[Mysterylover]

Also, some parents are responsible for involving their own children in trafficking and *advertiser censored*. There was that case last year (year before?) of the father in Canada who raped his 4-year-old daughter, streaming it online at the time. And that man who adopted a girl from Russia to exploit her.

So when you ask "WHO are the children" involved, many times they are the victims of their own parents.

I am very suspect of John Leonard Gosch, Johnny's father.

I think his actions have been more bizarre and suspect than Noreen's.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out definitively that he was in some way

responsible for Johnny's disappearance.....

Mr E....Very good point, suspect definitely...imo

 

[Chicken Hawk]

MysteryMax: I think it should be pointed out that just because people follow this thread and post on it, does not necessarily mean we all believe 100% of the conspiracy theory. Yes there is a lot of info on this case that is very unlikely, however that doesn't mean that all of it is. Have you read the entire thread? Have you read the books connected to this case?

 

[mysterymax]

I have read much of the thread, but not all, and yes indeed, I've read books associated with the case. And I've spent a lot of time on Noreen Gosch's website. Really, she is "ground zero"--and her bizarre beliefs could populate a psychiatric ward. She ought to take that crazy website down and GET HELP. She genuinely believes her own delusions, and THAT, short of the child's kidnapping and disappearance, is the scariest thing about this case. She has True Believer syndrome and I believe that it inhibits her from facing a much more grim reality. (I also do not for one nanosecond believe that her son stopped by to see her, on the run from some international satanic conspirators.)

 

[thefragile7393]

I've actually read a few of the books by the Passantinos--and I still think they are looney from their writings and I'm not convinced by them. I'm not convinced they are wrong by so-called "naysayers," on who is right or wrong. I think Chicken Hawk's post hit it on the nose and you're beating a dead horse for sure. As this all been re-hashed already in previous threads, so I will cease to continue this line of discussion.

 

[Capt.]

With all due respect for others that may say otherwise, I have to say SRA does exist. I have worked with at least one client that has been abducted and abused by a cult. I have this documented in several emails intercepted from the subjects handlers. They are very clear. I have also been part of a network of others that have worked with subjects of SRA. I have heard of similar connections as in the Gosch story. This is why I say the Gosch story is possible.

Here is a website of a survivor.
http://www.lynnsart.net/

I have not wrote any book, but include a small section of one reviewed

Satans High Priest
by Judith Spencer
Edition: Hardcover
Availability: Out of Print--Limited Availability
34 used & new from $0.46

Let the truth be known..., December 23, 2006
I understand that some that read this book are skeptical. One of the areas of confusion is that some wonder where all the bodies went. I can tell you. My whole family were high level Masons involved in a multi-generational Satanic Cult. The main way our cult disposed of bodies, both animal and human:
The cult's main activities took place in the farmlands of Wisconsin (my hometown was La Crosse, WI). There were hundreds of farms that were hidden in acres of corn and various crops. They built both underground networks for rituals and converted barns, silos and homes for rituals/rooms for torture etc... (and yes, in small communities, usually many are involved in the cult. our pediatrician, dentist, my dad's doctor and our pharmacist were all cult members...very clever indeed...they 'hid' all evidence of torture, rape etc... by being our treating doctors, putting in our files only that which was 'normal' for a growing child to experience. multi-generational cults are masters at hiding evidence)
To continue...In one underground room was a large wooden butcher-block table, a man with a leather butcher's apron and an industrial strength meat grinder. All the remains from the nights' rituals/sacrifices/torture sessions gone wrong were brought to the 'butcher'. (in many rituals/sacrifices most of the internal body parts and all of the blood are used/consumed, so there is often not a lot left to destroy) The butcher receives the body remains, and grinds them up into mulch, for lack of a better word. Bones, skin, cartilage etc... are finely ground, then mixed with farm animal manure, then spread on the crops as fertilizer. Healthy corn and no one was the wiser.
That is one of the ways I witnessed how the many bodies were rid of.

 

[Chicken Hawk]

Hi Capt. I'm sure SRA does exist. There are so many horrible things that come to light in the news everyday that nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[mysterymax]

Where to begin? "High Level Masons"????? Curiouser and curiouser....Underground chambers??? Well, almost anything's possible, I guess, but on this thread EVERYTHING'S possible. As Joan Didion has written, "We tell ourselves stories in order to live." So I ask, why THESE stories?

 

[youshouldveknown]

There are underground streets and chambers in a lot of the country. I don't see why that's so unbelievable. Ever heard of the Underground Railroad? Look up Portland Underground.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I have stated before that I remain unconvinced about a large conspiracy of high-level politicians, law enforcement and military-industrial elites involved in organized pedophilia. My suspicion is that what happened to Johnny falls somewhere between being kidnapped by a lone predator and falling prey to a huge quasi-governmental child-sex ring. Well, I recently received somewhat of a confirmation of my beliefs.

I was contacted by a man who was personally involved with this group as a victim. (I will not mention names or details about him at his request, but he is positively someone who is a position to know the workings of what happened to Johnny.) He told me that Johnny was taken by a ring of pedophiles, but that this group was basically localized in the midwest area. He stated that this ring was involved in several of the cluster of child abductions in this area. They did have a certain amount of political clout which allows them a level of protection, but that the idea of a huge conspiracy involving the highest levels of government was incorrect. It appears to me that this means that much of the data that has been presented is correct, but that the believers of a big conspiracy have mis-interpeted the data and assigned too large of an explaination for that data.

As I have stated in previous posts, this case has had many myths and legends attach themselves to it. Some are surely false, but some may be true. If we focus on the more outlandish of the claims, it will be easy to dismiss all of them. But remember, a boy named Johnny Gosch did disappear as did several other young boys around the same time and location. If we start with that fact and work our way forward, then we will be able to uncover what happened and who was involved.