IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, West Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 #4

[Mr. E]

Am I allowed to put that website on here? Anybody? It's another forum that discusses Johnny Gosch (among other things). I don't want to break the rules on this forum.

 

[Spurser]

Sorry for asking. I didn't think about that being illegal. I need to go back and read the rules! Could you pm it to me?

 

[Mazama]

Am I allowed to put that website on here? Anybody? It's another forum that discusses Johnny Gosch (among other things). I don't want to break the rules on this forum.

I would ask the Mod of this thread before posting the website link.

Maz

ETA: I believe Animal04216 is the moderator here.

 

[Armchair14]

To all:

Never for a moment did I think that I was the first person to notice and note the strange coincidence that the first and only day that Johnny Gosch went on his route alone just happened to be the day when someone was waiting to abduct him or any suitable target of opportunity. I mean, it’s glaring! What I didn’t know until just very recently, however, was that the same was true for Eugene Martin!

I’ve been reading some past notes on WS, and I came across a gentleman whose insights I am very impressed with. He, like me, seems most skeptical of this entire sinister conspiracy angle of Mrs. Gosch. More importantly, he has put forth a theory that answers the “coincidence” problem in both cases (and the coincidence of the coincidences between them!) in a most plausible way that does not involve the boys having been set up by anyone close to them.

Please note the post by Roy Harrold posted on 3-28-2009 at 12:57 PM. It is the fifth post on this page; on this very thread:

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...Gibson"+Johnny+Gosch&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Bravo! This is the idea I have been searching my mind for!

It was no coincidence. The perp was some man with an association with the paper carriers on a daily basis. We’re looking for a Michael Devlin type, a physically big man who would have felt confident he could handle a larger youngster like Johnny. Johnny might not have been his first choice as far as his perverted desires went, but he was acceptable and the opportunity presented itself that day, as it did later with Eugene regardless if the perp had been one and the same or not. It was the same scenario, whether one perp or two different ones. This could be a district manager, delivery driver or anyone else with a daily interaction with paper carriers.

With the benefit of Mr. Harrold’s brilliant insight, I, for one, now revert to my original inclination; i.e., the perp was the typical lone predator pervert type and all this conspiracy theory, built upon the most dubious of sources, fades into the fantasy that it always has been, at least in regard to Johnny Gosch.

 

[Mr. E]

To all:

Never for a moment did I think that I was the first person to notice and note the strange coincidence that the first and only day that Johnny Gosch went on his route alone just happened to be the day when someone was waiting to abduct him or any suitable target of opportunity. I mean, it’s glaring! What I didn’t know until just very recently, however, was that the same was true for Eugene Martin!

I’ve been reading some past notes on WS, and I came across a gentleman whose insights I am very impressed with. He, like me, seems most skeptical of this entire sinister conspiracy angle of Mrs. Gosch. More importantly, he has put forth a theory that answers the “coincidence” problem in both cases (and the coincidence of the coincidences between them!) in a most plausible way that does not involve the boys having been set up by anyone close to them.

Please note the post by Roy Harrold posted on 3-28-2009 at 12:57 PM. It is the fifth post on this page; on this very thread:

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...Gibson"+Johnny+Gosch&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Bravo! This is the idea I have been searching my mind for!

It was no coincidence. The perp was some man with an association with the paper carriers on a daily basis. We’re looking for a Michael Devlin type, a physically big man who would have felt confident he could handle a larger youngster like Johnny. Johnny might not have been his first choice as far as his perverted desires went, but he was acceptable and the opportunity presented itself that day, as it did later with Eugene if the perp had been one and the same. This could be a route manager, delivery driver or anyone else with a daily interaction with paper carriers.

With the benefit of Mr. Harrold’s brilliant insight, I, for one, now revert to my original inclination; i.e., the perp was the typical lone predator pervert type and all this conspiracy theory, built upon the most dubious of sources, fades into the fantasy that it always has been, at least in regard to Johnny Gosch.

The only person I could think of who would have contact with the paper carriers on a daily basis would be customers on the route. I haven't read what the police did in the initial search, but I assume and hope they looked at every person on the route.

Then again, since Johnny's papers were undelivered that day, maybe it wasn't someone on the route. Were there businesses nearby? A bakery would have people working early. Maybe somebody saw Johnny alone that morning and took a chance. I know there was a church nearby -- somebody from there, maybe?

Witnesses (other carriers) said they saw two men -- a man in a car (this is the man they made a sketch of as a POI) and a man following Johnny on foot. The man in the car asked Johnny for directions. Johnny felt uncomfortable and said, "That guy is weird; I'm going home" (or something like that). Later, another man was seen following Johnny on foot.

I think there could have been more than one person who took Johnny. Like you said, he was a big kid. It would make sense that there was more than one person to snatch him.

 

[Armchair14]

Mr. Ed,

I have never committed a crime in my life. However, if under currently inconceivable conditions I ever contemplated one, I can unequivocally assure you of one thing: I would never, under any circumstances, consider committing a crime that required an accomplice. I would trust no one: not my brother, not my best friend. No one!

It is this attitude that makes serial killers serial killers; i.e., successful (in a sinister way). They are loners who know how to keep their mouths shut, and their crimes have no motive beyond the acts themselves. This is why they are so difficult to catch. From all accounts, people who knew Michael Devlin were shocked. He had given no hint of either his unnatural urges or his criminal inclinations.

Although I do not completely rule out that two people had been involved with Johnny’s abduction, two perverts working together, I think it is unlikely. I am not inclined to accept as gospel the testimony of a sixteen-year-old paper carrier with perhaps a fanciful imagination and a desire to become important. Therefore, it is easy to conceive of a fanciful imagination framing his recounting of the events of that day as he recalls them.

It was early in the morning in September, still dark or darkish. So a man in a car flips his dome light on to read something and then off again. In this youngster’s imagination, this simple act becomes turning it off and on three times as some nefarious signal a la scenarios in spy movies he had doubtlessly seen in his life.

Your observation that the perp could have been someone from the neighborhood, rather than someone connected with Johnny’s paper route (except as a customer), is valid and astute in my opinion; only, however, if the Gosch and Martin cases prove unrelated.

One question I would like to have answered is, did anyone at the drop off point recall anyone asking Johnny: "Where's your dad?"

 

[Balthazar]

The only person I could think of who would have contact with the paper carriers on a daily basis would be customers on the route. I haven't read what the police did in the initial search, but I assume and hope they looked at every person on the route.

Then again, since Johnny's papers were undelivered that day, maybe it wasn't someone on the route. Were there businesses nearby? A bakery would have people working early. Maybe somebody saw Johnny alone that morning and took a chance. I know there was a church nearby -- somebody from there, maybe?

Witnesses (other carriers) said they saw two men -- a man in a car (this is the man they made a sketch of as a POI) and a man following Johnny on foot. The man in the car asked Johnny for directions. Johnny felt uncomfortable and said, "That guy is weird; I'm going home" (or something like that). Later, another man was seen following Johnny on foot.

I think there could have been more than one person who took Johnny. Like you said, he was a big kid. It would make sense that there was more than one person to snatch him.

Someone has to give the newspapers to the paper boys everyday. What if that person was pressing Johnny to make deliveries alone and waiting for his chance to abduct him? Could he have delayed giving him the papers until he could get him alone, then handed him the papers and abducted him, causing the papers to be left on the ground?

 

[Mr. E]

I was always under the impression that the man in the car said something to Johnny that was enough to freak the kid out. I know that the witness only heard a man ask for directions, but picture it: Johnny walks up to the car where a man has asked for directions. He walks away moments later and says, "That guy is weird; I'm going home." What could he have said?

Armchair14, I think that you are probably a smart enough person to know that if you commit a crime and involve someone else, that person could never be trusted. And obviously whomever took Johnny is smart enough to have gotten away with it. Or lucky enough. But I think a lot of people commit crimes with accomplices. Think of Steven Staynor. He was taken by Kenneth Parnell, who did have an accomplice. I can't remember the man's name, but I think he and Parnell worked together, and the accomplice never once told anyone what he'd done. Steven Staynor got away because he escaped, not because someone turned Parnell in.

That's just an example. I'm saying that since witnesses saw the man in the car who made Johnny uncomfortable, and they saw another man following Johnny (maybe it was just somebody up for an early morning walk, but he was still there, and he never came forward as a witness), I think it's very possible that there were two people involved in the abduction.

Princess Rose, I'd also like to know if they questioned the guy who dropped off newspapers.

 

[Pandora]

Article with odd new quote from Noreen:
"I never have lost hope that this case would be solved. If Johnny survived that would be, on top of it all," said Gosch.

More at link:
http://www.kcci.com/news/20604637/detail.html

I say odd because I've been following this since the beginning and heard/watched her on "Leeza" the day she announced that John was alive and visited her during the night.

 

[thefragile7393]

Article with odd new quote from Noreen:
"I never have lost hope that this case would be solved. If Johnny survived that would be, on top of it all," said Gosch.

More at link:
http://www.kcci.com/news/20604637/detail.html

I say odd because I've been following this since the beginning and heard/watched her on "Leeza" the day she announced that John was alive and visited her during the night.

Actually this whole article really, in my mind, contradicts a lot of what she has stated in the past.

She said she now knows the names of the men who abducted Johnny who are wanted for kidnapping in other states and is working with police to find them.

I wonder if this is the supposed Michaela Garecht link with one of the same perps. Very interesting statement from her. I wonder if she's learned that a lot of the stuff she was fed over the years has been bs.

 

[Mr. E]

Actually this whole article really, in my mind, contradicts a lot of what she has stated in the past. I wonder if this is the supposed Michaela Garecht link with one of the same perps. Very interesting statement from her. I wonder if she's learned that a lot of the stuff she was fed over the years has been bs.

Are you talking about the part where she says, "If Johnny were alive..."?

I wonder about the perps, too. She has said that she knows who kidnapped Johnny. According to her, it was Paul B, a guy named Tony, Sam Soda, and maybe some others, I don't know. Either she means she's working with LE to track some of these guys down (even though she knows the whereabouts of at least Paul and Sam), or it was different people entirely.

 

[cleo612]

I agree that it sounds crazy. However, some unbelievable things have happened that I never would have thought possible. People who have been missing for 20+ years have turned up, alive and well. Secret lairs have been found that housed people who have been held captive there for years and years. Improbable things sometimes become probable.

I try to remain skeptical, but there is always this little blip in my brain that whispers "What if...?"

Bolded by me...

What a prophetic statement to make--especially in light of Jaycee Dugard being found this week after enduring 18 years of captivity in one such "secret lair."

 

[thefragile7393]

Are you talking about the part where she says, "If Johnny were alive..."?

I wonder about the perps, too. She has said that she knows who kidnapped Johnny. According to her, it was Paul B, a guy named Tony, Sam Soda, and maybe some others, I don't know. Either she means she's working with LE to track some of these guys down (even though she knows the whereabouts of at least Paul and Sam), or it was different people entirely.

That's right I'd forgotten she has said that....and that's the angle Dr. D was working on. I don't know why but I guess for some reason I was thinking that something new had gotten through to her but I guess not.

The "if" part kind of got me too, but then I remembered that "Johnny" had told her he was in hiding, which leads me to guess that if that really was him, she hasn't had anymore contact and does not know if he's still alive or not. With the news about Jaycee Dugard, now to me it seems even more possible that certain elements of the theories she's come to believe could be possibilities.

 

[Pandora]

The recent recovery of Jaycee has created new interest in many "Cold Cases" resulting in interviews and articles. Here's another:
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090829/NEWS03/908290321/-1/BUSINESS04

In this one, Noreen is very clear that she believes John is alive.
Quote from article:
Noreen Gosch agrees. When I asked if she believes her son is still alive, she corrected me.

"I know he's alive."

What happened in California changes many things, but not that.

 

[Armchair14]

Doesn’t Mrs. Gosch state within her book that when Johnny visited her (at least that is her claim) that he stated he and the (mysterious) young man he seemed deferential to had escaped from this sinister conspiratorial organization and had been living on the run? If so, then how come during a video I saw online of an interview with her she agrees with the interviewer that this organization allows visits by adults abducted as children, but only for a very short duration, which is why Johnny’s visit was so brief?

Johnny is living on Indian reservations and altering his appearance to fit in? President Bush the Elder (of all people!) is somehow part of this conspiracy? (President Bush the Elder? This silver-spooned, New England patrician of the WW II generation who, despite what one thinks of his politics, has never evidenced even the slightest hint of personal scandal: substance abuse; adultery; gambling, or just about any other scandalous behavior (if such even exists any longer) one can think of; a devoted family man with a long and enduring marriage to a woman of his ilk (a direct descendent of President Pierce), lusts after little boys?)

What is the psychology here? The more outrageous the lie the more likely it is to be believed any more? How about Mother Teresa was running brothels? "Hey, yeah! If the supermarket tabloids won’t take it, there’s always the internet!"

 

[Spurser]

Doesn’t Mrs. Gosch state within her book that when Johnny visited her (at least that is her claim) that he stated he and the (mysterious) young man he seemed deferential to had escaped from this sinister conspiratorial organization and had been living on the run? If so, then how come during a video I saw online of an interview with her she agrees with the interviewer that this organization allows visits by adults abducted as children, but only for a very short duration, which is why Johnny’s visit was so brief?

Johnny is living on Indian reservations and altering his appearance to fit in? President Bush the Elder (of all people!) is somehow part of this conspiracy? (President Bush the Elder? This silver-spooned, New England patrician of the WWII generation who, despite what one thinks of his politics, has never evidenced even the slightest hint of personal scandal: substance abuse; adultery; gambling, or just about any other scandalous behavior (if such even exists any longer) one can think of; a devoted family man with a long and enduring marriage to a woman of his ilk (a direct descendent of President Pierce), lusts after little boys?

What is the psychology here? The more outrageous the lie the more likely it is to be believed any more? How about Mother Teresa was running brothels? "Hey, yeah! If the supermarket tabloids won’t take it, there’s always the internet!"

That's funny. I agree with what you said about the more outrageous the lie the more likely it is to be believed. Has anyone read The Franklin Files? I was considering alot of what was written. But then it just got ridiculous. I do believe it is possible that Johnny was forced into some pedo sex ring. That really happens. But some of the other claims are so far out. I just don't think I can go there with it.

 

[Balthazar]

Doesn’t Mrs. Gosch state within her book that when Johnny visited her (at least that is her claim) that he stated he and the (mysterious) young man he seemed deferential to had escaped from this sinister conspiratorial organization and had been living on the run? If so, then how come during a video I saw online of an interview with her she agrees with the interviewer that this organization allows visits by adults abducted as children, but only for a very short duration, which is why Johnny’s visit was so brief?

Johnny is living on Indian reservations and altering his appearance to fit in? President Bush the Elder (of all people!) is somehow part of this conspiracy? (President Bush the Elder? This silver-spooned, New England patrician of the WW II generation who, despite what one thinks of his politics, has never evidenced even the slightest hint of personal scandal: substance abuse; adultery; gambling, or just about any other scandalous behavior (if such even exists any longer) one can think of; a devoted family man with a long and enduring marriage to a woman of his ilk (a direct descendent of President Pierce), lusts after little boys?)

What is the psychology here? The more outrageous the lie the more likely it is to be believed any more? How about Mother Teresa was running brothels? "Hey, yeah! If the supermarket tabloids won’t take it, there’s always the internet!"

I have to agree with you. I think it's just pathetic how unscrupulous people manipulate the families of crime victims to turn on each other and believe that the most unlikely story is true. The mother and stepfather of Jaycee Duggard DIVORCED because police decided the stepfather, who reported her abduction was the "most likely" suspect and we all know how that turned out! The stepfather was completely innocent. Yet in family, after family of crime victims, unscrupulous people have managed to turn family members on each other compounding the tragedy.

 

[thefragile7393]

I do believe it is possible that Johnny was forced into some pedo sex ring. That really happens. But some of the other claims are so far out. I just don't think I can go there with it.

I do have a big feeling that this has happened to him, on a small scale. The more outlandish claims, especially from the Franklin Files book and website, are just....sad. There's a lot of things that are possible, and especially in light of Jaycee's case, Shawn Hornbeck, I can easily see him being kept for several years. Even the case in Austria, as horrific as that is, that woman was kept down there until she was in her 40's. So sadly....nothing about this case would surprise me, should any new real info ever come out. Again though, this has all been re-hashed again and again on this thread..sort of a big circle.

 

[Mr. E]

Remembering Johnny today, the anniversary of his abduction.

 

[Elicere]

If what I am being told is true (and what I have speculated by reading between the lines is also true), then Johnny is in a place where having a social security number is not neccessary. No one has specifically said, but I would suspect that he uses an alias and that few know of his past. He is in a place that is very insulated from the outside world and intrusion by any strangers would be prevented - perhaps even by force if neccessary.

This sounds a lot like a conservative Amish community.