Found Deceased IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #44

[MistyWaters]

Wouldn't it also have to be proven that the owner was aware the car was going to be used in a crime?

I agree, I would think the owner of the car would have to be proven complicit in some way. Because if not, why not sue the county for building the road and Chevy for manufacturing the car as well. There’d be no end to potential liability.

 

[kpm]

Oh ok, how many people did they say actually left?

At least a couple, IIRC

Which blows my mind that they were able to walk away, what if they have knowledge to the murder, now they are gone like the wind!


But only about 5 live on the property

Rivera, 24, worked at the farm for roughly four years and lived in one of its trailers for free. The farm has said that it employs about 10 other workers, and about half of them live in provided housing.


Immigration officials spend 2 hours at dairy farm that employed suspect in Mollie Tibbetts' death

 

[dlharris2712]

This is included to illustrate how multiple parties can get dragged into a civil case. Look at the result of how many different parties ended up with a judgement against them and their share was a percentage of the overall judgement.

The most interesting one to me is the raft builder. They probably never expected they would be dragged into a civil case resulting in someones death. They just supplied the raft. They probably had little control in how tall the water park made the ride or how fast the ride itself made their rafts go. Their small judgement related to the other parties reflects this. But yet they still had to pay some.

▪ $14 million from SVV 1 and KC Water Park, two companies associated with Texas-based water park company Schlitterbahn.

▪ $5 million from Henry & Sons Construction, the general contractor on the 17-story ride that broke records for the height of a water slide.

▪ $500,000 from Zebec of North America, which manufactured the raft that carried up to three riders down the slide.

▪ $232,125 from National Aquatics Safety Co. and its founder, John Hunsucker, which consulted on Verrückt.


Family of Caleb Schwab receives nearly $20 million in Verrückt settlements

In the end...did the $20M bring back their dead son? That would be the question I would have to ask if I ever lost someone - before I sued the company/parties I thought were at fault. And, if I did (or was made to) sue, every time I flipped one $20 bill out of my wallet to buy something with the settlement monies, I would be reminded again and again - my dead child isn't coming back. jmo

 

[kc1023]

I think y’all have worked CR’s immigration status and severity of his crime into the question - neither of which is relevant in establishing liability.

The same framework would apply if I drive my employers car without a valid license. It expired, I couldn’t pass the eye exam - my employer thinks I have a license but I don’t. I drive their car into town and commit arson, burn someone’s house to the ground. Is there any chance whatsoever that my employer is liable at all?

And since this case is pretty much stagnant pending new info becoming available, I’d love it if some of you would take a look at the Brandon Lawson thread. That case bugs me to no end...

Sorry, OT but I love your "Verified Reject" label and Captain Spaulding pic.

Will look for the Brandon Lawson thread and check it out. Thanks

 

[MistyWaters]

JMO
I agree. Its basically the definition of negligence. Something happens and sure you didnt expect it but you could be negligent for allowing the circumstances that it happened in the first place.

The bottom line is a civil case jury will decide. Thats why there are so many civil cases. Some won and some lost.

The link below is mostly talking about car accidents and negligence resulting from it but in a murder case where an illegal driver is on the road and a murder happens with a possibly company owned vehicle it could get real interesting in this case.

"Negligence can result in all types of accidents causing physical and/or property damage, but can also include business errors"

"Nine states (California, New York, Michigan, Florida, Idaho, Iowa, Minnesota, Nevada, Rhode Island) make the owner of the vehicle responsible for all damages caused by a driver given permission to use the car"

Legal Dictionary - Law.com

What you’ve quoted references damages caused by automobile accidents.

 

[Hatfield]

That sounds like product related legal liability, which I see as different than the question of whether the owner of an object, such as a gun, is responsible for crimes committed using that object.

I'm inclined to think that it has to be proven that if, and only if, Rivera had access to that vehicle, he could commit the abduction/murder. That's simply not true. When he decided to commit the abduction/murder, he would have found a way to do it regardless of that one vehicle.

As stated, that example was to illustrate how multiple parties can get dragged into a civil case.

An entirely different question is whether a civil case can be filed and end up succeeding against the farm and other possible listed defendants.

Based on what little we know so far I think there is a potential civil case here that could be won. If one is ever filed, the courts will be the ultimate decision maker if its successful or not. Many are lost or thrown out of court before they hit the end too.

 

[Confusion]

I think it was the car he normally used. The example was meant to compare the fact that just because someone used a tool or vehicle to carry out a crime, it doesn't make the owner liable if they could not have known it was being used in such a manner. No one in the comparison is under age.

I only had her being under age because it's the only way that using an ax (for non-violent purposes) would be illegal. If CR had permission to drive the car, the owner could be held liable for that. If he used it without permission, I think it would depend on a lot of things; one of the biggest might be what was done to prevent him using it again if he was known to use it in the past. MOO

 

[Hatfield]

What you’ve quoted references damages caused by automobile accidents.

Right. Did you not read carefully as i said exactly that.

"The link below is mostly talking about car accidents"

 

[MsBetsy]

I think there is a good chance that CR did have a fake DL, which he included with the rest of the fake papers he showed to the farm manager. When he was arrested, that's where it was learned that he had no legal DL. IMO

I can't imagine the farm not asking him for his DL when they hired him. I also can't imagine them letting him drive one of their vehicles if they even suspected he was unlicensed. They must know the liability issues that could be lurking in the future, even for leaving keys in an accessible place.

I think he used a fake ID when they hired him, but not a driver's license. At least not for that state.

 

[Mica]

Following

 

[Al Hoffman]

This is included to illustrate how multiple parties can get dragged into a civil case. Look at the result of how many different parties ended up with a judgement against them and their share was a percentage of the overall judgement.

The most interesting one to me is the raft builder. They probably never expected they would be dragged into a civil case resulting in someones death. They just supplied the raft. They probably had little control in how tall the water park made the ride or how fast the ride itself made their rafts go. Their small judgement related to the other parties reflects this. But yet they still had to pay some.

▪ $14 million from SVV 1 and KC Water Park, two companies associated with Texas-based water park company Schlitterbahn.

▪ $5 million from Henry & Sons Construction, the general contractor on the 17-story ride that broke records for the height of a water slide.

▪ $500,000 from Zebec of North America, which manufactured the raft that carried up to three riders down the slide.

▪ $232,125 from National Aquatics Safety Co. and its founder, John Hunsucker, which consulted on Verrückt.


Family of Caleb Schwab receives nearly $20 million in Verrückt settlements

A better enclosed design of the raft could have prevented the death. Hindsight is 20/20. Welcome to the wonderful world of product liability law. The half-million was likely paid by an issuer for the manufacturer, and is walk away money. It's cheaper to pay and walk away from further litagation, lost sales, and further bad publicity.

 

[MsBetsy]

I only had her being under age because it's the only way that using an ax (for non-violent purposes) would be illegal. If CR had permission to drive the car, the owner could be held liable for that. If he used it without permission, I think it would depend on a lot of things; one of the biggest might be what was done to prevent him using it again if he was known to use it in the past. MOO

I understand, I just thought you meant the anology did not correlate with what happened so I was confused when you brought in the underage factor.

 

[MistyWaters]

About 10 people

Just adding this, half living in provided housing.

“Rivera, 24, worked at the farm for roughly four years and lived in one of its trailers for free. The farm has said that it employs about 10 other workers, and about half of them live in provided housing.”
Immigration officials spend 2 hours at dairy farm that employed suspect in Mollie Tibbetts' death

 

[Jealoushe]

Question: my employee, Lizzie, is entitled to use the tools in my tool shed as part of her compensation. She must check them out. She comes to me one evening asking to borrow my ax. I allow her to and the next morning I discover she’s given everyone in her company owned house a whack. Am I liable because it was my ax she used?

No. For liability to arise, you have to prove negligence. Now if you knew this was a killer and had a history of axing people then yes, you could be found liable.

The thing with auto insurance is the person who is in care custody and control. The vehicle owner and listed drivers would be the ones in care custody and control. With no DL, you can NOT be listed as a driver. No DL = no coverage. There is NO way around this.

I had a Volkswagen Cabriolet and my insurance company told me the reason the premium was so high was because it was one of the top most commonly stolen vehicle. I'm sure you can guess why. I wish I had known when I bought the car!

Your broker is misinformed. Rates are not really based on this. Your comprehensive premium would be the only thing effected by this. Rates are primarily based on the severity of accidents, injuries and deaths involved in your specific make and model. For example, Ford Rangers have higher premiums because the injuries involved in accidents in those are usually very severe and have much higher claim pay outs for liability and accident benefits.

Also included are the stats for your area, age, and how far you commute/use of vehicle.

 

[Al Hoffman]

I think he used a fake ID when they hired him, but not a driver's license. At least not for that state.

Not at that time, 4 years ago. Since then, CR could have picked up a fake Or altered DL.

 

[Jealoushe]

You could be liable if you allow drivers without a DL to use your vehicles

Exactly. If you knowingly allow someone without a license to drive a car and they use it as a weapon, there is a chance you could be found liable.

True, but what if I didn't know they didn't because I had seen them driving before?

As the owner of the vehicle it is their responsibility to ensure the drivers have a valid license.

 

[kpm]

Just adding this, half living in provided housing.

“Rivera, 24, worked at the farm for roughly four years and lived in one of its trailers for free. The farm has said that it employs about 10 other workers, and about half of them live in provided housing.”
Immigration officials spend 2 hours at dairy farm that employed suspect in Mollie Tibbetts' death

I know, I added that link in another post of mine

 

[Ragnarok]

50/50 at this time. I think the community and state would love this crime not to go to trial...... It has the potential of being a political media circus.

More so if televised.

 

[MsBetsy]

Tha

A couple, that to means '2'.

That's what I thought I read but didn't dare want to state it as " fact"

 

[Jealoushe]

I think there is a good chance that CR did have a fake DL, which he included with the rest of the fake papers he showed to the farm manager. When he was arrested, that's where it was learned that he had no legal DL. IMO

I can't imagine the farm not asking him for his DL when they hired him. I also can't imagine them letting him drive one of their vehicles if they even suspected he was unlicensed. They must know the liability issues that could be lurking in the future, even for leaving keys in an accessible place.

If he had a DL it would have to be active, all insurance companies run driving record checks when adding new drivers.