ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 69

[Cool Cats]

No, I get that. I just am not convinced all this circumstantial evidence points to what everyone seems to think. I just think too many people have been convicted wrongfully on evidence like this so until I see it laid out more convincingly (like exactly where the car pinged, for example), I just don't buy the stalking charges because IMO, there can be an explanation for it. MOO.

DNA is enough for juries to convict. The rest shows he had motive, means and opportunity and NO ALIBI.

You can't discount the DNA as just circumstantial, it's pretty direct if you want more direct evidence.

 

[CGray123]

<modsnip - quoted post contained court documents of an unrelated case>


<modsnip - discussion of quoted post>

Courts don't routinely permit attorneys to withdraw. They demand an explanation why withdrawal is necessary, how the professional conduct rules have been addressed, and how the client's interests will be protected before approving withdrawal.

AT is probably the best person in the state, certainly in the PD's office, to represent an indigent defendant who is likely to face multiple capital murder charges. The PD Conflicts Counsel is not on the qualified list to receive the new, highest-stakes-in-the-world case. If the PD's office customarily would keep the existing and refer the new case, IMO they do not have that option in the current, extremely rare circumstances.

 

[PrairieWind]

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

Courts don't routinely permit attorneys to withdraw. They demand an explanation why withdrawal is necessary, how the professional conduct rules have been addressed, and how the client's interests will be protected before approving withdrawal.

AT is probably the best person in the state, certainly in the PD's office, to represent an indigent defendant who is likely to face multiple capital murder charges. The PD Conflicts Counsel is not on the qualified list to receive the new, highest-stakes-in-the-world case. If the PD's office customarily would keep the existing and refer the new case, IMO they do not have that option in the current, extremely rare circumstances.

Attorneys withdraw from cases not infrequently. There are some rules that have to be met but if they are, the Court almost always allows it. <modsnip - quoted post was snipped> Do I find the former representation interesting? Yes I do. Is it a potential problem? Perhaps. But I don't think any of us, myself included, would have anywhere near enough info (and likely never will) to make an informed decision on whether this is proper or not. I am certain the PD, the Judge, DA, clients and bar counsel will discuss it and resolve it.

 

[Nila Aella]

12/30/2022 AT was appointed by the judge to BK case - Friday
12/30/2022 Limited notice of appearance of AT (until agreement reached with Latah County), Friday
1/2/2023 New Years holiday, Monday
1/4/2023 BK arrives in Idaho, Wednesday
1/5/2023 In Idaho court, Thursday
1/5/2023 AT was replaced on the other case, Thursday.

As I read in the article below : In one of the cases four times her office represented a parent and in two of those, court documents show AT was "inactive" attorney (no comment about the other 2). In the other case her office defended a parent and she took over as attorney of record Sept 2022 - according to the article.

Not sure what that "limited" notice of appearance on 12/30 means, maybe it has to do with her other case?
IMO (I am not an attorney) If the state replaces AT due to a conflict of interest, they need to replace her with someone with equal experience, otherwise it will look like the state is trying to cripple the defense.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/123022%20Order%20Appointing%20Public%20Defender.pdf

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/123022%20Limited%20Notice%20of%20Appearance.pdf

Idaho quadruple murder suspect arrives in state after waiving extradition from Pennsylvania | CNN

The man accused of killing four University of Idaho students in November is on a flight back to the state, a source familiar with the case said Wednesday.

www.cnn.com

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/010523%20Court%20Minutes%20-%20Criminal%20Template%201.pdf

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271507917.html

 

[RonSwanson33]

His phone can ping without him being in the car, no? If we're discussing the cellphone pings, I don't believe those were alleged to be from times he was necessarily in a car. Either way, passing through a 1-mile radius 12 times in four months a few miles from one's home doesn't seem suspicious to me on its own.

Right, that's why they have several other things when seen in the whole picture tell the story of him stalking them and being near their house 12x. Not sure why people don't believe the guy who allegedly murdered 4 people was also stalking one or more of them.

 

[CityKid]

Right, that's why they have several other things when seen in the whole picture tell the story of him stalking them and being near their house 12x. Not sure why people don't believe the guy who allegedly murdered 4 people was also stalking one or more of them.

I can say confidently IMO he committed murder; at this point, IMO these pings are not enough evidence of anything except his phone being in a general area. MOO.

 

[RonSwanson33]

No, I get that. I just am not convinced all this circumstantial evidence points to what everyone seems to think. I just think too many people have been convicted wrongfully on evidence like this so until I see it laid out more convincingly (like exactly where the car pinged, for example), I just don't buy the stalking charges because IMO, there can be an explanation for it. MOO.

OK but no one in this day and age with the technology we have in this huge of a case is wrongfully convicted. IMO.

 

[MsBetsy]

Perhaps—Just pointing out that the cell tower evidence by itself does not indicate a strong case. DNA on the other hand….

Hopefully the GPS data from the vehicle will provide more information about the exact routes, times and locations that are relevant in the PCA.

 

[Betty P]

Right, that's why they have several other things when seen in the whole picture tell the story of him stalking them and being near their house 12x. Not sure why people don't believe the guy who allegedly murdered 4 people was also stalking one or more of them.

Also a reminder that LE didn't seize his car until relatively recently, at the time of his arrest. There's been no word yet of evidence found, but it seems likely some has been uncovered. BK's clothing likely contained blood/DNA evidence, some of which would have transferred to the car. Scrubbing evidence from cars can be difficult.

 

[ray9898]

then why would it be in the PCA?

It is baffling that some think LE didn't address the simplest details. It is like they think LE doesn't knows how cell towers work, even the specialized unit from FBI who does this everyday that assisted in this.

 

[CGray123]

Attorneys withdraw from cases not infrequently. There are some rules that have to be met but if they are, the Court almost always allows it. <modsnip - quoted post was snipped> Do I find the former representation interesting? Yes I do. Is it a potential problem? Perhaps. But I don't think any of us, myself included, would have anywhere near enough info (and likely never will) to make an informed decision on whether this is proper or not. I am certain the PD, the Judge, DA, clients and bar counsel will discuss it and resolve it.

I agree. The PD would not have a designated conflicts counsel if they never had to withdraw from a case. The ultimate test for the court is the protection of the existing client's interests. IME courts tend to resist approving withdrawal within months of a trial date without a very serious reason given - especially if the client objects. On the other hand, early in the case agreed substitution of counsel adequately protects the interests of the client in most cases. If a plea agreement has been negotiated but not presented to the court, the impact of changing attorneys would be minimal.

All this said, the PD's office has an interest in maintaining public confidence in its ethical standards. Probably not so much that it would replace AT over BK's objection, but at least they might have a discussion with him.

 

[Ceska]

His phone can ping without him being in the car, no? If we're discussing the cellphone pings, I don't believe those were alleged to be from times he was necessarily in a car. Either way, passing through a 1-mile radius 12 times in four months a few miles from one's home doesn't seem suspicious to me on its own.

LE seems to think otherwise, according to the PCA. And don't forget BK was in such close proximity to their house that he picked up on the victim's wifi. It's residential, no shops there, not as if he was shopping, especially at those late night/early morning hours.

 

[Warwick7]

Has this been posted yet?

Idaho murders – news: Bryan Kohberger’s gushing email to police chief revealed

Kohberger is accused of the fatal stabbings of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin in Moscow, Idaho, on 13 November

news.yahoo.com

 

[WingsOverTX]

Exactly. The FBI bringing in an expert in car recognition was the key to the solution! You can say what you want to about the FBI, but they are the best in the world in what they do. Never doubt that. You get 30 FBI agents on your tail.. you are in deep doodoo.

Otherwise, the DNA on the sheath would mean nothing because BK had no DNA in the system. LE "may have been" able to tie to to a relative but knowing the white Elantra was identified and put out to LE early and found in Pullman by local LE, speeded up the process exponentially.

RBBM
Right?!

 

[r3d-ros3]

Has this been posted yet?

Idaho murders – news: Bryan Kohberger’s gushing email to police chief revealed

Kohberger is accused of the fatal stabbings of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin in Moscow, Idaho, on 13 November

news.yahoo.com

This is strange -- their meeting took place in April 2022? Per this source. I'm assuming this means it was a Zoom meeting, but I didn't realize the interview / meeting had taken place so far in advance of his move to Pullman.

 

[Warwick7]

Has this been posted yet?

Idaho murders – news: Bryan Kohberger’s gushing email to police chief revealed

Kohberger is accused of the fatal stabbings of Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin in Moscow, Idaho, on 13 November

news.yahoo.com

A defense attorney commented:

"Based on the evidence outlined in the probable cause affidavit, Mr Levin said that Mr Kohberger did a poor job of “covering his tracks” and that the prosecution has a “very strong case” against him."

“In short, he should get an F in criminology class,” he said. “He did not do a good job of covering his tracks.”

 

[Bluebythec]

Walmart opens at 6am and closes at 11pm. I'd call that late evening and early morning hours. l assume he shopped then because he's in school during the day.

IIRC isn't there a 24 hour gym in the area?

 

[Dotta]

IIRC isn't there a 24 hour gym in the area?

If he attended it - he will have alibi.
But, did he?
Are there any records of him being in the gym on those dates?

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Maybe. I don't give the doctoral program professor any breaks though. If what the student described really happened, the professor was wrong. Period. It doesn't matter IMO if he had already tried to talk to BK. He's the professor. He holds the power. If what the student described really happened, it might have "triggered" BK (although no way the professor could have known that so no blame there.) More importantly from the standpoint of acceptable professor behavior, just what did his atrocious stunt teach the class? Nothing good, that's for sure and nothing that will help this professor's future TAs interact effectively with students (if the professor is even given any more TAs if the story is true) nor will the stunt help any other professors' TAs. Just disgusting.

I'm not sure we should be so hard on BK's master's program though. We have no idea what sort of theses were proposed and completed by BK's classmates. Perhaps narrative work vs quantitative work is ok in that program. (Hard for me to believe but some programs actually prefer qualitative/narrative work these days.) And COVID was incredibly disruptive. BK and his thesis situation may not have been unusual. And to a great extent, unlike in a doctoral program, whether a master's student finishes on time does depend on the supervising professor and what he/she permits. For example, for BK to do his late survey, I'm pretty sure he would have needed permission from the IRB (Institutional Review Board that oks human subject research) His thesis professor would have had to sign off on the IRB application. Why did she agree to let him gather data so late? I suspect it may have been another adjustment made for COVID and not made just for BK and not made just at that university. Lots of stuff considered iffy or downright unacceptable was done at lots of universities because of the pandemic.

JMO

I agree with this in full. Thank you, especially for reminding those who don't work in higher ed that "COVID was incredibly disruptive," both for teaching and research as person-to-person contact was either forbidden or a really bad idea. My own university held in-person classes for some undergrads but did so using masks, rigorous cleaning of surfaces, and social distancing. We didn't even have minor outbreaks, just isolated cases, including in residence halls. But many normal routines (meetings, tutorials, sports, etc.) didn't happen for a year.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

If he attended it - he will have alibi.
But, did he?
Are there any records of him being in the gym on those dates?

And wouldn't a gym -- especially a 24-hour one -- have cameras?