ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 19

[Diddian]

I would have to know the entire circumstances of such an event. People can get enraged over ongoing roommate/neighbor/household feuds.

It's a horrific crime, no matter what the motivation, but I will stand by the rubric that the person is mentally disordered, isn't thinking like a normal person, is not a typical person, etc. And there are signs of that psychopathology in that person, although they may do a great deal to conceal it. It's always surprised me to interview people in jail or prison for violent crimes to hear their version of how it came about.

Since college students are of an age where certain mental illnesses first occur, I am not ruling out research that shows relationships between schizophrenia and bizarre murders, but there are many other mental disorders that could be comorbid in this case. Killer seems rather organized to be a schizophrenic killer, though.

Do you think it possible that a "close friend relationship dynamic" could motivate a PAIR of individuals to attempt violence together that both - or at least one of those individuals - might not attempt on his/their own?

I think about friends who have been surprised at some of the behaviors (bullying, stealing, cheating) their own children got involved in as part of a group that they'd likely never have engaged in on their own. Often there was one particular member of the friend group who was more of a risk-taker and boundary-violator and that member would dare or goad the others on. Often that member was more successful at evading detection while others might get caught and bear consequences.

Of course, these were relatively minor offenses compared to a quadruple homicide.

But I find myself vacillating back and forth between this looking like a "close-relationship-reactive" crime (based on factors reported about these particular victims, their long term relationships with each other and others, and timing of KG's visit before she moved on into post-college life) and a "thrill killer opportunist" crime (given four were killed and in such a vicious and bloody way with others present in the home, incl. possibly a dog).

In an earlier thread, @diggndeeperstill posted a variety of opinions and supporting factors from various former FBI behavioral analysts/agents and homicide detectives. While there were some commonalities, those experts also were divided between the two possibilities. To some extent, this is likely because there are so many missing pieces of information in the public sphere, but it could also be because there really are factors pointing to both.

This makes me wonder if there might be two perpetrators with independent motives; one feeling wronged and "left behind" and quite frustrated and angry about it and another - a close friend, perhaps for life - comfortable with risk and with taking action regardless of violating boundaries and with goading the other to act.

ETA: Alternatively, it could be that the risk taker might act entirely on his own and believe that by doing so he is serving the interests of his friend. (That is, the "wronged friend" played no role except in sharing his frustrations and anger.)

 

[Cota332]

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet...Could not be related at all but I came across this post from the Moscow Daily Activity Log from September 19:

Incident Address: 600 blk TAYLOR AVE
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition: ACT
Time Reported: 17:32
Cad Comments:
Complaint of stalking. Suspect diagnosed with bi-polar and drug induced psychosis. Officer responded. Report taken.

This is super close to their house.

This is a really interesting find! Thank you!

 

[T4Tide]

I was feeling the same after the interview with SG yesterday as well. But as a mother of a college student, there is no way, absolutely *NO WAY* I would then mention a person I suspected to be the perpetrator in the obituary that will forever memorialize my child. (Edited for clarity of thought).

My brain does a 180 every day.

As a mom of 5, three being college kids, I agree. Especially when it would have been perfectly acceptable not to mention an on and off again boyfriend in such a way. I’ve seen many obituaries list survived by “a host of aunts and uncles,” “coworkers at TR construction” “members of the Sunday School class,” etc. A boyfriend and other friends could be mentioned and yet not called by name and still be very close to the individual. Specifically naming someone in an obituary where said person may have had even a 1% chance of being the perp is NOT something a mother would do.

That is, unless LE has hidden the fact from her about a potential subject, fearing her love, sympathy, and loyalty to said individual would compromise an investigation.

 

[Sunny Texas]

The variables will be many. Not all police or emergency service organizations have the same budget, so where one department can have a paid or contract counselor, others can only refer a member to a network of professionals in their established healthcare network. There are too many variables to give a comprehensive answer. (It's a good question, just not answerable within the context of the forum.) Even at the federal-level a lot of work necessary counseling is on the employee. The office/organization make a limited number of paid visits available to the employee and after that, it's on the member.

Many first responders have access to volunteer clergy and counselors who make themselves available, some as chaplains to cities/regions. This is especially true following major crisis events such as a terrorist bombing, natural disaster, etc. Some are available year round on an on-call basis. This can supplement paid, scheduled treatments.

 

[BondGirl007]

I feel like the following definition of targeting according to page 41 of this FBI handbook is important when considering this case. Many are or have assumed that this term means that the victims knew their killer. That is not necessarily true.

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/making-prevention-a-reality.pdf

My opinion.

Good find. I don't know what to make of

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet...Could not be related at all but I came across this post from the Moscow Daily Activity Log from September 19:

Incident Address: 600 blk TAYLOR AVE
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition: ACT
Time Reported: 17:32
Cad Comments:
Complaint of stalking. Suspect diagnosed with bi-polar and drug induced psychosis. Officer responded. Report taken.

This is super close to their house.

What is the date on this?

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Good Morning!
I wonder what LE has planned for Christmas break at the campus? I would think they would send in the hounds to sniff around student residences.

They would need warrants to search individuals' dorm rooms. 4th amendment rights would be relevant. lots of info if you google, but this was the top search find in my browser

College Students and College Dorm Room Searches

Know your rights as a college student regarding dorm room searches. Get legal guidance from Berry Law to protect your privacy and future.

jsberrylaw.com

Idaho does not have additional provisions in their state constitution, but some states do.

 

[jcamh]

The girls may have pledged different ones due to legacy. Maybe their mom's or family member was in them, or perhaps some cost differences from an affordability standpoint. I would have loved to have pledged the frat that many of my HS friends joined but I could not afford it and joined a smaller fraternity

You can't just choose to pledge a certain sorority. You have to be invited by the sorority to pledge. It's possible that K & M didn't receive invitations to pledge the same sorority.

 

[JLy]

The longer this goes on the more I think it's a possible serial killer.

I Was thinking the same thing. i also think that maybe this person(s) came in because he knew someone that lived in the house? why pick a house full of people ? and what happened with the rest of the people awake in the house that night? did the police cleared them?... so many questions ??

 

[JSTANOVICE]

In my humble opinion I believe this is a revenge killing related to the house and not a specific person. Revenge for what? That is the only answer we need. The problem with this is that it implies that the house had wronged someone. If the student body does not have any ideas then it must be a local resident. Does the house have a name used by students to describe it? grasping at straws here.

First time commenting on this case,

first off, I think some people need to cut the police some slack.... I can think of 4 "local" serial killers where it took police a long time to make an arrest. Green River, I5, Clifford Robert Olson, Paul Bernardo.....

in the Green River (Seattle) and I5 cases (Washington/Oregon/North Cali I5 corridor), the perp was doing the same crime over and over again. in Green River case, same area and targeting prostitutes. in I5, doing multiple violent crimes the same day at different stops on I5.

here are comments/questions,

1) do many of us assume the perp must have specific background/knowledge? to leave so few good clues. hunting? (although that's lots of people in Idaho). ex-military? other similar guesses.

2) the dog.... surprised it didn't bark alot and attack perp..... was it bloody when found? did it know the perp? did the perp get there early and lock the dog in another room?

3) stalker... a bit surprised that dad and I think others said she had stalkers but police didn't come up with anything.... must be all kinds of stalkers at colleges..... of course, if you loosen up the definition of stalker, you'd have a third of the male population in Moscow (Idaho)

4) 9/11 call..... shocked so many people seem to think it's so important.. you get up late on Sunday, all you roommates cars are in driveway. no evidence of anyone getting up. (maybe you see dog or wonder why it's locked in another room).. roommates don't get up by a certain time, you get very confused/worried... call the police? OR, will it simply be a nuisance call?........ I just don't see how any of this is highly relevant if police figure out which "innocent roommate" made the call.. and no reason to make the "innocent roommates" lives more stressful than they already are.

5) did KG formerly live in that house? or was she still even paying rent but not living there?... never made completely clear to me.

6) sororities.... probably nothing but I watched Law and Order episode "Pledge" the other night... the perp was obsessed with sorority girls..... specific sorority, specific negative incident from way back, specific sorority sister...... horrible thing to say but I can see certain types of sorority girls rubbing people the wrong way. (of course, huge leap to what happened)

The Girls Posted a lot of photos on social media websites, Parents need To counsel Their kids And Universities, Even High schools need To Caution And Be Emphatic About the dangers Of Doing this especially when Away in College, Your in A whole new melting pot Of people and Don’t know Who could be watching, I know it sounds creepy, but It’s So true

 

[Honest Abraham]

They would need warrants to search individuals' dorm rooms. 4th amendment rights would be relevant. lots of info if you google, but this was the top search find in my browser

College Students and College Dorm Room Searches

Know your rights as a college student regarding dorm room searches. Get legal guidance from Berry Law to protect your privacy and future.

jsberrylaw.com

Idaho does not have additional provisions in their state constitution, but some states do.

but you can send the dogs down the halls. and if they hit you can search i think.

 

[Tobiano8th]

<modsnip>

wonder if police have checked on students who didn't come back. of course, it's probably alot of people...... but maybe some that don't fit the image of being too scared to come back........ on the other hand, I did see a former University of Idaho football player (maybe a linebacker... but very big and strong) saying he was "scared to death" of living in his Moscow house. so maybe everyone is petrified.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

I agree with this. IMO, MPD believes they know who the killer is, but currently has a primarily circumstantial case. Therefor, they are working to gather enough evidence to be more confident in an arrest.

SGs interview tells me that he believes he knows exactly who the killer is. The drugs/drinking comment was interesting in that it sounds like he or his daughters have reached out to students who could help prove/disprove something (such as an alibi) but students are scared to share info or evidence as they are fearful of personal blowback due to being around or on drugs/drinking. As an adult, that seems silly to me, but I remember being a college student, and I wouldn’t have wanted my name being associated with hanging out with people doing coke or Molly all night - especially in the day where info that hits the internet is potentially forever.

You may be right, but if the circumstantial evidence gives them probably cause, then they can arrest. Circumstantial evidence is enough to convict if it proves the case beyond a reasonable doubt. IMO if the evidence - circumstantial or direct - were strong enough to get an arrest warrant, LE would be arresting, not waiting.

Circumstantial evidence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Circumstantial Evidence – Definition, Examples, Defense Strategies

https://youtu.be/iSLAWdUGwME Circumstantial evidence is proof of a fact or set of facts from which one could infer the fact in question. For example, that a suspect is seen running away from a murder scene with a weapon in hand is circumstantial evidence he committed the murder. This contrasts...

www.shouselaw.com

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

but you can send the dogs down the halls. and if they hit you can search i think.

Wrong. See the case below.

The U.S. Supreme Court Declares Warrantless Dog Sniffs of Private Front Porches Unconstitutional, Or Does it? A Closer Look at Florida v. Jardines

Justia columnist and Cornell law professor Sherry Colb comments on the recent Supreme Court Fourth Amendment case concerning the constitutionality of the police’s conducting a warrantless dog sniff on...

verdict.justia.com

Unless one of the exceptions to a warrantless search were to apply, it would be a warrantless search, and all evidence springing from that would then be illegal as well. And the search you described does not have anything close to a valid legal exception.

fruit of the poisonous tree

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Janitor101]

Not much there IMO.
A combination of the obvious and a speculation that 1 or more were into drugs without justification for casting such aspersions. JMO

I wasn't very impressed with this former FBI agent. He seems to be highly focused on what the toxicology reports will reveal, but I think the tox screen results will be a big nothing burger. I don't recall any reports that the victims had a history of drug abuse. He may be speculating that the girls had possibly been "roofied" while they were having drinks at the bar, but would they have even been able to walk and talk after having been dosed in this manner?

 

[Emerald1328]

Ethan’s family did not come up to speak. I’m not sure if they’re there.

Xana’s sister, dad and aunt spoke.

 

[FruitTingles]

someone outside LE probably found this out and went to the media or was going to and LE decided to put it out there instead?

I don't see why every person becomes a suspect that's related to the girls, unless there is something supporting it.

Sorry but Where did I say I suspected this person?

 

[Honest Abraham]

Wrong. See the case below.

The U.S. Supreme Court Declares Warrantless Dog Sniffs of Private Front Porches Unconstitutional, Or Does it? A Closer Look at Florida v. Jardines

Justia columnist and Cornell law professor Sherry Colb comments on the recent Supreme Court Fourth Amendment case concerning the constitutionality of the police’s conducting a warrantless dog sniff on...

verdict.justia.com

Unless one of the exceptions to a warrantless search were to apply, it would be a warrantless search, and all evidence springing from that would then be illegal as well. And the search you described does not have anything close to a valid legal exception.

fruit of the poisonous tree

www.law.cornell.edu

i find it hard to believe that the university could not invite LE to run a dog through the dorms. that makes zero sense

 

[Sandy007]

I Was thinking the same thing. i also think that maybe this person(s) came in because he knew someone that lived in the house? why pick a house full of people ? and what happened with the rest of the people awake in the house that night? did the police cleared them?... so many questions ??

I agree that the more time passes, it is more likely it was a serial killer. Killed just because he had the opportunity to kill? Opportunity such as an unlocked sliding door to the house and knowledge that there are young defensless friends sleeping inside. Noone would link the killer to that house, they never been there prior to killing. Perjaps did some surveillance, but only from outside. What do you think?

 

[MalloryPike]

i find it hard to believe that the university could not invite LE to run a dog through the dorms. that makes zero sense

Because even college students have constitutional rights. That’s not hard to understand.

 

[layer]

This memorial is so sad, heart wrenching, and yet it's strangely cathartic to see all these loved ones talk about them. I generally avoid memorials and funerals, I have a low tolerance for sadness and wind up depressed. But that was really uplifting, and it kind of surprised me.