ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 24

[drmrgrl]

That's what I was saying. If he's in one of those apartments in front of the house, he can sit from the comfort of his room and watch people go in and out of that house. It's so convenient. That morning was cold and icy. If he's outside waiting for them to go to sleep, he could be waiting a good while.

It was cold that morning, but no ice. There had been fog the morning before IMO

 

[debirlfan]

Police confirmed early on that a door was left open after the murders. Since the downstairs tenants did not notice an open door, instead went upstairs around noon, saw Ethan, called friends, went outside, called 911 ... it's assumed that the 2nd floor patio door was left open.

If the killer exited through the patio door, perhaps he entered through the same patio door. It did appear that the lock was broken after footage of bar stools braced on the patio door track emerged. It looks like either the 2nd floor patio door was broken on the night of the murders, or someone broke that lock earlier - perhaps part of a planned premeditated murder.

The door was apparently open when police arrived, but did the surviving roommates open it, perhaps to allow the friends they had called entry?

If the door was open prior to 9am, then they didn't open it. And I hate to bring up the dog again, but if he went out or was put out when the killer entered, with the door left open he could have re-entered at any time and been found in any of the common areas (living room, kitchen, etc.)

 

[XtremeScorpio]

I don't see that as being the reason, tbh. I also don't think Ethan and his GF were part of the killers plan. It is more likely, IMO, that they heard a commotion, went to go check it out, saw the killer coming downstairs as he was on his way out the back door and either knew who he was or confronted him at that moment. Seeing he had a knife, Ethan ran back into his room where he and his GF were ultimately murdered.

Something about all of this tells me that one of the girls on the third floor were the killers' target. What I haven't been able to wrap my head around (quite yet) is the amount of time between feeling the need that this was something that he absolutely needed to do and the time that it occurred. Even drunk, you can talk yourself out of doing this in the two hours from 1-3am.

I agree completely and share your opinion. I was just sharing a possible reason (in my opinion) as to why the killer didn't go downstairs for those who keep asking that question. Just something to consider, I guess.

My personal belief is that he didn't go downstairs because neither one of those girls was the target.

 

[drmrgrl]

I have no beef with this theory. It doesn't exactly match mine, but I don't believe the one with the worst injuries must be the target.

The one with the worst injuries may have fought back harder enraging the killer. IMO

 

[drmrgrl]

i have seen the interview of the father saying you send a child to school and get them back in an urn or something along those lines but that could be plans to be cremated and not having already happened. I havent seen much on memorials, funerals etc which would be common in a school murder with popular kids like this. The one thing that really tells me is that with both being cremated they could have had wounds that forced cremation.

Unfortunately yes.

 

[blackbeary]

thank you, that's one of the reasons I was asking for the Zillow plans, I've seen differing plans and was hoping to find some common ground with one of them with the zillow plans. No worries

He's good at showing both

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Police confirmed early on that a door was left open after the murders. Since the downstairs tenants did not notice an open door, instead went upstairs around noon, saw Ethan, called friends, went outside, called 911 ... it's assumed that the 2nd floor patio door was left open.

If the killer exited through the patio door, perhaps he entered through the same patio door. It did appear that the lock was broken after footage of bar stools braced on the patio door track emerged. It looks like either the 2nd floor patio door was broken on the night of the murders, or someone broke that lock earlier - perhaps part of a planned premeditated murder.

MPD stated there was no sign of forced entry, tho; photos taken Day 1 don’t show the bar stools laying down as clarified in earlier thread(s).

'We cannot say there's no threat': Moscow Police provide new details on student murders

Police say they do not have a suspect at this time.

www.ktvb.com

EBM to include link to photo:
Google Photos

 

[ssnva1]

How about the Bryan Harvey murders in Richmond, VA in Jan of 2006? On New Years Day of all things.

Such a tragedy. Horrific what they did to that family and the Baskervilles. I’m local and every couple years I go back and read the threads and articles. Gruesome. Those poor little girls.

 

[WildWest]

He's good at showing both

Who is "he" ?

 

[XtremeScorpio]

thank you, that's one of the reasons I was asking for the Zillow plans, I've seen differing plans and was hoping to find some common ground with one of them with the zillow plans. No worries

Not sure if this is what your are looking for, but hopefully it will help....

Blueprints show where each Idaho student was found stabbed to death

Unearthed blueprints and layout plans of the off-campus house where four Idaho college students were brutally stabbed to death reveal where each of the friends were found slain earlier this month.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[EncyclopediaBrownJr]

I suspect the neighbor’s Camera caught it, and that’s how they are certain of the color, and model year series.

Otherwise, they could say light colored car, some silvers at night are hard to distinguish for eyewitnesses, and ostensibly an eyewitness wouldn’t know there was a murder at the time they saw the vehicle.

Further, they’re just not going to say we believe this is the murderer. Mr. Murderer, come forward. They’re almost always a POI until they clamp the handcuffs.

So why almost a month later are they releasing this? This is something they could have come out with sooner. That car could be anywhere.

 

[debirlfan]

How did they get Hyundai Elantra out of that?

I wonder how confident they are of the make and model? If they have any question at all, there's an autistic teen on FB that can identify virtually any car ever built, even from crappy photos. He's worked with police before.

 

[HopeValleyDevil]

I’m so confused about the front door. There is a (private) twitter acct that has a clip from Fox earlier this morning and there’s an anchor standing outside the house and she said she heard from a neighbor that the front door at the murder house was wide open at around 8:30-9am Sunday morning. The neighbor supposedly told this to LE

MOO

Dont be surprised if the perpetrator had multiple exits/escape routes prepared

 

[Eric Trott]

The one with the worst injuries may have fought back harder enraging the killer. IMO

"Worst" is probably not the term people want to use. "Deliberate" is a better description for what you are trying to say.

A lot can be learned from the wounds, as long as you know what the weapon was. Where was the killer in relation to the victim? Was the killer right-handed or left-handed? The depth of the wound can provide you with an approximate weight (a certain amount of force is needed to go through skin, bones, etc. Not everyone has the strength to do this once, let alone multiple times). The angle of the wound can provide you with approximate height. Someone who is taller than the victim will create a wound with a steeper than 90-degree angle. Same goes for someone who is shorter than the victim (less than 90-degree angle, in that case). Etc.

The location of the wounds is also important to note, as well as any "extra" mutilation of the body (female victims, in particular, can have sexual organs such as breasts and uterus' removed or cut into). Deliberate wounds to the face can denote jealousy (the killer doesn't want anyone else looking at their victim). Wounds to the arms and/or legs are often accidental or, if the killer has time, are "extra" (see Luca Magnotta). Most of the wounds in crimes of this nature will be centered around the chest area. Whether the wound begins in the back or front of the victim, the aim is still the same.

Of the two female victims, the one who was dispatched quickly (only cutting a main artery) was not the target. An angry killer will just stab away at the target of his rage. It is not uncommon to see 40+ stab wounds in victims of this type of crime.

Between two people who died via the same means, you can definitely tell who the killer was after.

 

[margarita25]

Would anyone be interested in a post that states and sources the facts, timelines, etc.? I’d get a mod to approve first before posting but I feel like it could seriously slow down the movements of the threads to a point where we could actually discuss the case instead of sifting through speculation.

I’ve been working on a doc and I don’t want to put a ton of effort and time into it unless it will be used and referenced. Thoughts?

ETA it would include sources on things that will prevent new members from bringing up things discussed weeks ago. No offense to those who are new to the thread.

Contributions always welcome here in our Media/No Discussion Thread; Please feel free to add your document

ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Died in Apparent Homicide, Moscow, 13 Nov 2022 ****Media Thread**** NO DISCUSSION

ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Died in Apparent Homicide, Moscow, 13 Nov 2022 ****Media Thread**** NO DISCUSSION Discussion Thread 1: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/id-4-university-of-idaho-students-died-in-apparent-homicide-moscow-13-nov-2022.644006/ —— Rsbm Police said...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Colorado303]

This is just the most horrific tragedy! It is so sad and distressing that the lives of four good friends and housemates have been brutally snuffed out in the prime of their lives for no apparent reason, and they're forever lost to their loved ones!

Although there seems to be a lot of speculation on the Internet and Social Media about potential cyberstalking/stalking of any one of the victims through their Social Media accounts, there are other technologies out there that allow people to follow or stalk their victims in real time.

See the article at the link below about a recent lawsuit filed against Apple:

"Two women say in a lawsuit against tech giant Apple that the company’s AirTag tracking device “has become the weapon of choice of stalkers and abusers” because of its low price.

An AirTag, which retails for $29, can be attached to a person’s belongings for tracking through the “Find My” application in Apple devices, using Bluetooth technology."

Women's Lawsuit Alleges Apple's AirTag Is 'Weapon Of Choice Of Stalkers'

The point being, that in this case, even if the victims' Social Media accounts or cell phones were not used to cyberstalk or stalk them (if they were, which LE has not specified), there are discreet, low cost tracking devices available to do just this undetected, which could have easily been planted on their belongings or their vehicles! ...{{{Shiver}}}...

It would be great if the killer used air tags to stalk a one of the victims. Once a suspect is found a warrant could be served for their “find my app” information. And if he hid the tag(s) well, would he have remembered or taken the time to retrieve it? If not and LE finds it, boom!

 

[SLouTh]

Does the Bar have Cameras?

Yes … external ones definitely … seen on TIR Video

 

[Eric Trott]

It would be great if the killer used air tags to stalk a one of the victims. Once a suspect is found a warrant could be served for their “find my app” information. And if he hid the tag(s) well, would he have remembered or taken the time to retrieve it? If not and LE finds it, boom!

It really will not take LE long to find the person who did this. I know it's been a while, but it took 5(?) years to arrest someone that LE spoke to within the first couple of weeks in the Delphi investigation. Sometimes it just takes a really long time to get enough evidence to arrest and then prosecute someone. That doesn't mean that it has taken that long to narrow down their list of suspects.

If he is not already, the guy who did this (and I'm pretty confident, given similar cases and what has been provided by LE thus far, in saying that it's a guy) is currently going through a lot of anti-depressants and underwear whenever the phone rings. At some point he's going to be pretty confident that he has gotten away with this, but he won't. And I really hope he knows that.

 

[margarita25]

It would be great if the killer used air tags to stalk a one of the victims. Once a suspect is found a warrant could be served for their “find my app” information. And if he hid the tag(s) well, would he have remembered or taken the time to retrieve it? If not and LE finds it, boom!

This reminds me of today’s news regarding Apple encrypting stuff on the iCloud now as a measure of security protection, and LE’s concern about this. I wonder how this is going to play out going forward, and if it could potentially impact this case going forward...Supposedly even if LE has a warrant they won’t be able to get some of the information they were able to previously, as I understand it:

Apple advances user security with powerful new data protections

iMessage Contact Key Verification, Security Keys, and Advanced Data Protection for iCloud provide users important new tools to protect data.

www.apple.com

WSJ News Exclusive | Apple Plans New Encryption System to Ward Off Hackers and Protect iCloud Data

The optional feature would keep most data secure that’s stored in iCloud, a service used to back up iPhones or save specific device data such as Messages. The data would be protected in the event Apple is hacked, and it also wouldn’t be accessible to law enforcement, even with a warrant.

www.wsj.com

Apple Plans New Encryption System to Ward Off Hackers and Protect iCloud Data​

‘Advanced Data Protection’ will offer end-to-end encryption on iCloud backups, Notes, Photos and other services—a step that may draw ire from law enforcement”​

“An Apple spokesman declined to comment on the company’s handling of the encryption issue or any discussions it has had with the FBI. The FBI did not respond to requests for comment on any discussions with Apple.”

[...]

“More than two years ago, Apple told the FBI that it planned to offer users end-to-end encryption when storing their phone data on iCloud, according to one current and three former FBI officials and one current and one former Apple employee.

Under that plan, primarily designed to thwart hackers, Apple would no longer have a key to unlock the encrypted data, meaning it would not be able to turn material over to authorities in a readable form even under court order.”

—-

Apple expands iCloud encryption as it backs away from controversial CSAM scanning plans

Apple is rolling out new security features that include encryption for most of your iCloud data — much to the chagrin of law enforcement.

www.engadget.com

“New security features will keep more of your data safe from hackers and law enforcement.”

“It may be more difficult for hackers to grab your iCloud data — and even Apple is rethinking its access to sensitive content. The company is introducing a raft of security measures that run the gamut from expanded end-to-end encryption to a reversal of a controversial program intended to identify possible child sex offenders. The launch is headlined by Advanced Data Protection, an optional feature that applies end-to-end encryption to more iCloud data. While Apple was already protecting 14 data categories, the new offering protects 23 — including iCloud device backups, photos and notes. Your calendar, contacts and iCloud Mail are still unencrypted to support global systems.”

[...]

“At the same time, Apple is backing away from its controversial efforts to screen for child sexual abuse material (CSAM). The company tells Wired it has shelved a technology that would have detected known CSAM photos in iCloud and flagged accounts for reviews if they held a certain number of the toxic images. The change of heart comes after "extensive consultation" with experts, according to Apple — the company has decided that it can protect children without searching this data. Instead, it's focusing on opt-in Communication Safety features that warn parents about nudity in iMessage photos as well as attempts to search for CSAM using Safari, Siri and Spotlight.”

[...]

The tech giant is pitching the new security features as useful tools for its most privacy- and security-conscious users, whether they're high-profile targets or simply people willing to trade some convenience for peace of mind. However, they could also set up further conflicts between Apple and law enforcement. The FBI and other agencies have frequently attacked Apple for making it difficult to crack suspects' iPhones through iOS' end-to-end encryption. Now, police might also be shut out of iCloud data they could previously obtain through official requests — Apple couldn't comply with orders even if it wanted to.”

—

Apple Kills Its Plan to Scan Your Photos for CSAM. Here’s What’s Next

The company plans to expand its Communication Safety features, which aim to disrupt the sharing of child sexual abuse material at the source.

www.wired.com

“IN AUGUST 2021, Apple announced a plan to scan photos that users stored in iCloud for child sexual abuse material (CSAM). The tool was meant to be privacy-preserving and allow the company to flag potentially problematic and abusive content without revealing anything else. But the initiative was controversial, and it soon drew widespread criticismfrom privacy and security researchers and digital rights groups who were concerned that the surveillance capability itself could be abused to undermine the privacy and security of iCloud users around the world.”


—-

January 2020:

Exclusive: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained - sources

Apple Inc <AAPL.O> dropped plans to let iPhone users fully encrypt backups of their devices in the company's iCloud service after the FBI complained that the move would harm investigations, six sources familiar with the matter told Reuters.

www.reuters.com

“Apple Inc AAPL.O dropped plans to let iPhone users fully encrypt backups of their devices in the company's iCloud service after the FBI complained that the move would harm investigations, six sources familiar with the matter told Reuters.”

 

[SLouTh]

Of the two female victims, the one who was dispatched quickly (only cutting a main artery) was not the target. An angry killer will just stab away at the target of his rage. It is not uncommon to see 40+ stab wounds in victims of this type of crime.

BBM
Eric, can you just clarify this part of your most interesting post please ???

Are you referring this specific case when you mention one of the two girls was dispatched quickly by severing an artery???

And if so, are you able to provide a reference for that please? As I seem to have missed that part …

Many thanks …