ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[bonniejeanne17]

That is an excellent point. It does seem odd to think one of them could be worked up enough to make a flurry of calls to the X and be sound asleep less than 15 minutes later. Of course, there are people like my husband who will ask me a question and be snoring before I can answer him! Not exaggerating. LOL

Maybe they were not fully asleep

I don't see how the coroner could know that.


In general, I do not take Mabbutt's pronouncements as gospel truth, based on her track record.

 

[Strong1]

The only evidence we have of the content of those texts/calls is Kaylee's sister who says the content was regarding the fact that they shared a dog.

IMO.

It's possible that the calls were regarding the dog, but I can't help but wonder if those calls weren't related to the video where Kaylee asked Maddie what she told Adam. Maybe Kaylee was worried that whatever Maddie told Adam got back to her ex and she was trying clear something up. Might explain why both girls tried to call him. MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

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[Palinsmom]

Madison Mogen’s father hits out at ‘misinformation’ around Idaho murders

Ben Mogen says authorities have worked tirelessly to keep him informed about developments in the investigation into his daughter’s murder

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Welcome to all our new members who have joined the discussion. We were all new once and it takes a while to learn all the ins and outs, become familiar with our Terms of Service, and generally how Websleuths rolls. We are not your average run-of-the-mill type of site where anything goes.

We want our new members to feel welcome, so if you have an issue please don't hesitate to contact a Mod or Admin by Reporting an offensive or inflammatory post (Report button at the bottom of each post). Just Report and let our Moderators or Administrators review the issue and deal with it rather than responding on the thread.

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[jcamh]

I cannot even fathom what the dog endured while locked away in a room…but able to hear and smell everything. With their superior olfactory, and even better sense of hearing…it must have proved a very traumatic experience for the dog. JMOHO.

He's a puppy who has been living in a party house. I don't think he will be scarred by what he may have heard or smelled on the night of the murders. I'm just glad that he was in a different room so that he didn't go from body to body getting covered in blood, licking their faces trying to wake them up. If he had done that, then he could have some psychological damage.

 

[javi]

There are a couple of problems with that camera. It is a good 50 feet away from the house where the murders occurred, and pointing in the opposite direction. It could definitely see cars coming and going up and down the street toward and from the murder scene. But it would also see all the cars driving to those large apartment buildings past the house.

But more of a problem, in my mind, is that these cameras use wifi to interface with an app on a cell phone. Footage is stored locally, not on the cloud like a Ring camera. Many, if not most people that use these cameras turn down the sensitivity and field of view to save storage space on their phones, to save bandwidth, and to avoid getting annoying alerts every time a car drives by. There is a good chance that the camera was set to only record activity on their own property. And the wifi cameras I used tended to drop the signal at the most inopportune time.

JMHO

There is a good chance that the camera was set to only record activity on their own property.

However if you notice the camera is angled toward the street and not focused on their parking lot. The camera itself has a wide field of view as well.

I myself am personally convinced this camera had a lot of valuable evidence for the PD.

 

[bonniejeanne17]

The risk management part is significant

Yes, I included a link about the collapse in my first response to you — did you miss it?

To which I’ll add that as decades’ long local resident affiliated with the UI who follows this kind of local stuff quite closely, the most significant issue with the Greek system at UI has long been alcohol, Alcohol, and ALCOHOL.

Especially as alcohol relates to risk management, lawsuits, & settlements without admitting liability at UI.

I’ll recommend researching two specific tragedies as emblematic of the Greek system at the UI:
Rejena Coghlan (Greek system escaped, reportedly there was eventually a confidential settlement with UI in which no fault was admitted)
Joseph Weiderick (Joe was a non-Greek student who attended a frat party as is common here, one or more frat members were subsequently charged & entered into plea agreements)

There are several others, of course, and a decent quasi-recent overview is available (in additional to reporting by the Argonaut, the student newspaper, & other local reporting). Actual hazing pales in comparison to alcohol problems at the UI:
U. of Idaho dean of students resigns after failed attempt to punish fraternity

Hazing is a serious problem wherever/whenever it happens, but conflating hazing with actual long-standing alcohol issues within the Greek system at the UI isn’t helpful, it seems to me.

MOO.

Thanks for the link to the article in Inside Ed.. The article is from 2015.

Looks like problems with fraternities at UI are longstanding and incurable.

No wonder so many people think there is a frat element to the four murders at 1122.

 

[al66pine]

Hairsplitting?

Suppressors are designated Class 3 firearms. To legally obtain a suppressor in Idaho you must....

Snipping for focus @layer
There you go again, getting all nitpicky, talking about "LEGALLY obtaining." J/k. [wink]

Yes, legally obtaining a suppressor to use - esp'ly if getting initially for these homicides - would require some planning, time, & $$$.
That's quite an obstacle course. And w good reason.

By comparison, aquiring a suitable knife from a local artisan cutler, big box store, online, or FB mktplace, or friend, would be waaay easier & cheaper.

Or if intent on using gun & suppressor, Perp might have gone the time-honored way of experienced criminals: Stealing.

 

[Stephen2022]

I belive the coronor bases his opinipn on blood splatter or lack there of in downward patterns if a victim is sleeping and on their back as opposed to being upright and moving aroound. Also lavk if defensive wounds indicate alsleep. That is why to me IMO i don't think killer was in house in wait as I orginally thought because of
the dog and tax driver said the two girls we planning or eating pasta when they got home. So the movement around home and dog you would think would have found killer and stabnings may have happended immediatly in that case as opposed to approx one hour later.

 

[Balthazar]

Very Interesting! Earlier I was trying to figure out where exactly the tire track marks were. I think some were on that road, others in the driveway, but I am not sure. Wondering if that camera would capture where they were measuring the tire tracks? MOO

Idaho university murders: Investigators seen measuring tire marks at house where 4 students were killed

Idaho investigators were seen measuring tire marks outside of the Moscow, Idaho, home where four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death.

www.foxnews.com

Hopefully this will be helpful in understanding where the tire track marks are: The tire tracks appear to be to the left on Queen Road as you are facing 1122 King Road from Queen Road on the right lane of Queen Road. They are not as far up as the apartments next door - they appear to stay on Queen Road and they then turn left at the right bend in Queen Rd but they look a bit out of control - and go down Queen Road on the opposite side of the street heading West and in the opposite direction as far down as the parking that is catty-corner across Queen Road from 1122 King Road front door. There has not been any indication of tire tracks in the driveway/parking area of 1122 King Road.View attachment 390101

 

[Ceska]

I cannot even fathom what the dog endured while locked away in a room…but able to hear and smell everything. With their superior olfactory, and even better sense of hearing…it must have proved a very traumatic experience for the dog. JMOHO.

I have been thinking the same thing, dogs are so sensitive to their surroundings. Hoping the poor pup is doing OK.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

The only evidence we have of the content of those texts/calls is Kaylee's sister who says the content was regarding the fact that they shared a dog.

IMO.

I thought Kaylee said that in the past, she'd sent him messages that they shared a dog. I thought the content of any texts/calls that night was still unknown by the public. Am I remembering wrong?

 

[Emerald1328]

I go through this same scenario and am trying to look through the criminology and psychological data on incels. We have a precedent, of course, in Elliot Rodger, but he killed himself upon completion of his vengeance. It's such a sad case. He killed his house mates (male) and then went off to exact revenge on the college community (because he was feeling rejected by wonen),

His parents had sought help for him as early as age 8. I believe he also had a major psychiatric diagnosis. Since it's in the ballpark of this crime, it's worth it to at least think along these directions.

I'm sure LE is checking this out. It's basically a more advanced/thought out version of Elliot Rodgers - which should indeed scare the heck out of all of us.


Idaho has pretty strict privacy laws - and very few cameras that actually record data in public settings.

What traffic records exist within social media sites?

They can definitely set up a digital trap *after* the crime and get everyone's router data within a certain area approved by a Judge. I assume that's what they are doing (google "FBI Stingray" and see how it's been used in the past).

They can also get a warrant for a particular person's search data for Google or whatever engine they think they're using (which they would know by now) But *not* a blanket warrant for *everyone's" data - that's not okay.

Rest assured that with so many FBI on site, digital forensics is at the very forefront - and you won't hear about most of it until trial.

Two of the victims had extensive social media usage. I assume those were some of the first warrants they served. Further, amateur sleuths are able to use the already existing methods of judging SM engagement (its volume) on TikTok, Youtube and Insta. For example, clever TikTok users are able to calculate which of the victims' postings had the most engagement in the week or other time period before the murders. The results are surprising, IMO. Some day, we'll get a TikTok expert here and then maybe be able to discuss some of this.

It's one of the things that makes this case so complicated. How would we even define "cyberstalking" when a victim had some 50K followers, nearly all of whom appear not to post much and have private profiles (so they're looking at her, she would need to interact/approve their follow to see their profile - which she appears to have done). They are from all over the world, as far as I can tell.

Put that together with the many DNA profiles they probably found inside the house (aside from the victims') and it's a really tough case. But it's hard for me to put the Elantra together with "cyber stalker," so I think LE is focusing in a different direction (although who knows - they may have many different directions).

None of the victims had close to 50k followers at the time of the murders. I saw their Instagrams right after their names were released and they had between 800-1,500 followers at that time.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Maybe they were not fully asleep

I don't see how the coroner could know that.


In general, I do not take Mabbutt's pronouncements as gospel truth, based on her track record.

I agree.

I wonder if Mabbutt said they were "likely asleep" based on them being in/near bed and time of death being roughly 3-5 am, and an assumption that most people are asleep during that time. She may not have even been aware of the phone calls in the minutes just prior to 3am. MOO

Speaking of the phone calls, when K's mom (? IIRC) referred to the content of some texts from K to J, including "we share a dog" etc -- has it been established when those texts were sent relative to the flurry of unanswered phone calls in the 2:30-3am range? I see posters appearing to assume they all happened during that same time frame, but my initial impression was that the early am contacts were only calls dialed, and that the texts had happened some time earlier, but do we know when? Were they even from that same night? Or are texts and dialed calls being conflated and maybe the latenight attempts WERE the texts? Anyone seen this clarified anywhere?

 

[10ofRods]

how long have students been on campus at U of I? Just asking because maybe with the COVID shut down there was a somewhat recent thorugh cleaning or cleaning of rooms between roommates that might have eliminated some "old" DNA. Seems in a "party house" there would still be a lot but maybe only 6 mos or 1yr of samples?

Very hard to get rid of DNA. Deep cleaning doesn't get rid of DNA. 6-10 washings with bleach and hot water doesn't get rid of DNA, So it's hard to picture that any ordinary cleaner that's okayed for domestic use would get rid of it.

We have samples of DNA from 40,000 years ago. Actually, even older than that.

Denisovan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And way older than that - allowing paleozoologists to conjecture the color and scale/feather type of dinosaurs:

Paleontologists Find Possible Dinosaur DNA

A report of preserved fragments of nuclei and chromatin in a fossilized femur of a 125-million-year-old Caudipteryx dinosaur elicits skepticism.

www.the-scientist.com

125 million years ago. Still around. It is a very persistent molecule.

What does happen is that it breaks into parts and some parts can be missing (but each cell contains the entire genome of the individual, and it's very unlikely that the same bits will be missing from each cell sample).

What *can* be done is to look at relative density/layering of DNA. One would expect tons of DNA on sheets slept on by people on the night they died - and then, of course, in their blood stains. DNA found admixed with those blood stains would have to be more recent.

But floors, carpets, door jambs, stove knobs, cupboard knobs, etc - it's anyone's guess whose DNA might still remain from the past.

 

[sunshineray]

She's taking a picture of another woman, they seem to know each other or are friendly after just meeting. I think it might be a selfie with that woman.

When both the girls were at the pickup window of the Grub Truck, at one point, with Kaylee in front of her at that window, Maddie holds her phone up like she's taking a picture behind her. That's what it seems like to me. HG and the guy with the cap, standing behind them, seemed to be who she was photographing. AJMO

 

[10ofRods]

None of the victims had closer to 50k followers at the time of the murders. I saw their Instagrams right after their names were released and they had between 800-1,500 followers at that time.

Interesting. You must have gone in very early. I went to Kaylee's insta by day 4-5, and it was close to 50,000. It's not impossible to get the actual data, though, if one wants to try and use any of the Instagram analytic programs (as I'm sure the FBI has done).

Really creepy that so many people followed after the murders.

At any rate, I trust you - that certainly narrows down their Instagram social world. That means that screenshots of their instas are fake (the ones circulating).

 

[Montecore1]

I worry about the mental state of DM & BF, I cant even imagine what they have been going through from finding the victims to knowing how close they may have come to also being victims themselves...maybe even living with "survivors guilt". I wonder if these girls can even come back to UI after this?
The same with JD...just him wondering in his head over and over if he would have answered his phone that night, could the circumstances be different.

 

[layer]

Really creepy that so many people followed after the murders.

Following dead people... I worry about the future.