ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

[BeckyF]

I think we need to be careful about diagnosing people before they are identified. And even after that, for that matter. Psychopath and sociopath are very overused terms in society. It's easy to want to think of killers like the one(s) in this case in those terms but sometimes people just do terrible things. Just because academia uses those terms does not make it correct and it may be dangerous. But we don't know ANY of this about the perp in this case yet.

^^^^
This!

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

HUNTERS USING KNIVES
@Sister Golden Hair Thank you for responding to clarify your point.
I got side-tracked w ref. to service animals and w link's first sentence "When people hunt and kill animals for sport, are they committing murder?"

And yes, sometimes it's difficult to know about Websleuths' ToS and whether a certain link to a certain source is acceptable, esp'ly for newish members. Occasionally even grizzled old vets like me cannot easily determine.
Keep on postin.'

No worries. I'm glad we got it cleared up. it's hard in the posting environment to always be clear, and there's no way to know tone, etc., so things get misinterpreted and/or are confusing.

I knew that the title of the article was inflammatory, but that wasn't my intent. I just think it's important to consider the other side of an argument, and I really can see how wanna-be killers of humans could use hunting to learn the ropes. I mean, if I were a wanna-be killer using poison, I'd learn some chemistry and practice there. If I wanted to be a bank robber, I'd get a job as a teller. just makes sense to me. Unfortunately, if I ever turn to a life of crime, this post just made it easier for LE to find me lol.

 

[somequestions]

If the murders were committed by someone known to the victims(such as a romantic interest) or anyone who knew the inside of the house and which person lived in which room, then I have a question.

Ethan Chapin was the only one who did not live at the house at some point. Why would the "other two" victims be killed if the killer was there for a specific person and knew which room each of them slept in?

 

[10ofRods]

I think we need to be careful about diagnosing people before they are identified. And even after that, for that matter. Psychopath and sociopath are very overused terms in society. It's easy to want to think of killers like the one(s) in this case in those terms but sometimes people just do terrible things. Just because academia uses those terms does not make it correct and it may be dangerous. But we don't know ANY of this about the perp in this case yet.

Not diagnosing no one in mind. Just profiling and discussing

I think we need to be careful about diagnosing people before they are identified. And even after that, for that matter. Psychopath and sociopath are very overused terms in society. It's easy to want to think of killers like the one(s) in this case in those terms but sometimes people just do terrible things. Just because academia uses those terms does not make it correct and it may be dangerous. But we don't know ANY of this about the perp in this case yet.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

If the murders were committed by someone known to the victims(such as a romantic interest) or anyone who knew the inside of the house and which person lived in which room, then I have a question.

Ethan Chapin was the only one who did not live at the house at some point. Why would the "other two" victims be killed if the killer was there for a specific person and knew which room each of them slept in?

This is not in any way meant to be snarky, but it's hard to read a reply and know the tone, just wanted to clarify, but you've asked the question we've been batting around since I joined up in thread 11, and it was probably discussed before that. What it comes down to is we just don't know, but I bet we've hit on every variation on the theme IMO.

 

[isabella88]

Not diagnosing no one in mind. Just profiling and discussing

With all due respect, I think it stretches the WS rules and it makes me uncomfortable anyway. I realize there hasn't been much substance to discuss this case for a while now. JMO.

 

[alaskanblue]

This very well may be the case...the killer may not be a *hunter*. My take, they were VERY FAMILIAR with using a knife and probably killed/injured with this weapon previously...be it a human or an animal. You just don't attempt (and succeed) dispatching 4 humans in a short time frame without the knowledge and confidence to do so. Yes, the victims may have been asleep and/ or inebriated, but FOUR victims in TWO separate rooms doesn't ensure success and is fraught with unforeseen consequences. FBI needs to find this killer sooner rather than later. MOO

i agree-the killer IS very familiar with using knives. One comment I'd make on whether or not they are a hunter (and the post you were replying to) is yes, they don't use their knives to kill the animals when hunting. But the knife will always be used to butcher them. It's an integral element of it. So I do think it's reasonable to assume they are a hunter. It's possible God forbid that the only animals he's killed were dogs and cats before the murders and he doesn't kill game. Which means he really isn't a hunter in the traditional sense. Yes, it's possible that he is a chef or a butcher though. I'm praying along with all of you that this psychopath is caught. MOO

 

[blackbeary]

Imo, the problem is not all people are going to believe this. "We PROMISE we don't care." can lead to when this is over being looked at with a fine tooth comb from there on in. Even if someone has ZERO to do with the murder, and maybe someone else they were with did have something to do with it (or knows something), they may not come forward. How many videos from that night do you suppose have been deleted?

But also, IMO, I think they already have information and plenty of it. Just maybe would like more, need something extra to add to something they have, need to fill in a blank space, etc. The amount of video and images and information that has to be sorted through has to be incredible.

All my opinion.

If you know something, take your attorney along.

 

[AmatuerDetective]

One thing I want to note: Is LE absolutely in their rights to keep everything close to the vest? Absolutely. But I can also guarantee the city and the U of I are hemorrhaging cash right now. Imagine trying to recruit students for the spring semester or next fall semester with this hanging over the city's head. Many people are studying remote right now and that will pick up the longer it goes, not to mention transfers to other universities in other places. We're in the middle of Christmas break right now and I can guarantee if nothing happens between now and then, more people will study remote if not transfer out for spring semester altogether. This all has an effect on commerce, etc, since it's a college town. Like I said, I feel bad for LE as they are literally between a rock and a hard place on this one. I can guarantee you that the longer this goes with this little information, the more people will be looking at leaving Moscow altogether if they can afford to do so.

Nobody improves by telling them they are perfect.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Move on from the psychopathy discussion please. It is off topic speculation not based on any known fact. None of us even knows who this person is, let alone be in a position to diagnose them.

Thank you.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

i agree-the killer IS very familiar with using knives. One comment I'd make on whether or not they are a hunter (and the post you were replying to) is yes, they don't use their knives to kill the animals when hunting. But the knife will always be used to butcher them. It's an integral element of it. So I do think it's reasonable to assume they are a hunter. It's possible God forbid that the only animals he's killed were dogs and cats before the murders and he doesn't kill game. Which means he really isn't a hunter in the traditional sense. Yes, it's possible that he is a chef or a butcher though. I'm praying along with all of you that this psychopath is caught. MOO

A hunter might use the knife to skin and gut the animal or dissect it after they’ve shot it with a rifle or crossbow.

I think the killer could’ve done these things or just fantasised about killing with a knife.
I wonder if he showed his friends and acquaintances his knife before this attack, or was it secretly stashed in his car/truck/room, waiting for a time to use it?
JMO

…………



The history of knives as weapons shares the same terminology as the history of treachery and assassination: knives are concealed, secreted, hidden away; they’re produced and used suddenly, in a flash,  without warning.

The physics involved are immutable: knives are sharp and hard; bodies are blunt and pathetically soft. In the movies, victims can be stabbed multiple times and somehow survive; in life, as one trauma surgeon puts it, “even the smallest knife wound can be catastrophic, if not life-threatening … [because] what you see on the surface may not reflect the damage that lies below”.

‘They’ll pull knives on ya’: how a teenage boy’s night out turned to tragedy

Just 17, apprentice Jack Beasley arrived in Surfers Paradise for a night out with his mates. Hours later he died in hospital after a stab wound to the heart.

www.smh.com.au

 

[The Observer]

Idaho murders: Leaked image appears to show victims inside local bar hours before unsolved stabbings

 

[HopeValleyDevil]

i agree-the killer IS very familiar with using knives. One comment I'd make on whether or not they are a hunter (and the post you were replying to) is yes, they don't use their knives to kill the animals when hunting. But the knife will always be used to butcher them. It's an integral element of it. So I do think it's reasonable to assume they are a hunter. It's possible God forbid that the only animals he's killed were dogs and cats before the murders and he doesn't kill game. Which means he really isn't a hunter in the traditional sense. Yes, it's possible that he is a chef or a butcher though. I'm praying along with all of you that this psychopath is caught. MOO

The knife is for killing and for pretty much all game hunters, hunting food isn't about the act of killing the animal, more so in a messy act of stabbing .
Hunting is more about the traditional pursuit of the food. Hunting is about the acquisition of food.
All the hunters I know, will shoot an animal, in many cases shoot to not damage the fur, then pull out a knife roll with knives purely for dressing the deceased animal for food consumption.

I have friends that hunt pigs with bow and arrow. This requires greater prowess and while game like wild pigs are feral pest, they also carry disease like tuberculosis. My grandmother died of tuberculosis after eating wild game. Not everything can be eaten, including fish. Many fish are riddled with nematodes and cysts.

Men have only been a century out of hunting their own food. Fight and flight is an integral part of good mental health for many. Hunting for food is a respective innate need for many.

There are loonies that don't know what they are doing, and in some cases, some younger will hunt a wild boar with such a knife that is used with dogs, but that comes at high cost.

In my opinion, the person who bought this knife, bought the knife for their fantasy. The knife is made for military purpose.

This person may never have hunted game.

The dog incident is bizzare and one of madness. I worked with a guy that lost his sanity. He bagged his dog in the freezer. Wrote over his face in sharpie. Had two fully dressed animals in the house, and was using his hallway as a shooting range. When the police put him in prison for shooting at his ex girlfriends boyfriends car, he ripped one of the most notorious kickboxer gangsters apart inside the prison. Skinning a dog is mental health problems imo.

As a hunter, I don't own one of these ka bar style knivesknives. I carry a knife roll with a range of knives for different aspects of processing the animal. I don't own a bowie, ka bar or rambo style knife.

I think the knife is premeditated. The knife was purchased for his killings. I wonder if it was used in other crimes of similar nature?

All in my opinion only premised on, vicarious learning, msm and police releases.

Police seek ‘Rambo’-style knife in probe of Idaho student murders: report

Police investigating the slaughter of four University of Idaho students have asked the manager of a local store owner whether he sold a “Rambo”-style knife known as KA-BAR to anyone.

nypost.com

 

[Mr. Mal]

I've wondered who made those phone calls, too.

Thinking that myself as well about killer using K & M's phone to make the calls. Most people have passcodes, face recognition, or lock screens. So, if the killer did use their phone, they would have had to either take hostage their phones while they were alive and coherent or hold up phones to their faces for face recognition while they were deceased. Very creepy and extra work, for what? IMO MOO

 

[Counttrarian]

I've been pretty amazed at how straightforward and congenial Chief Fry has been in his leadership role. Looks like a great guy to me. As compared to those young people who are coming out on the body cams and lying or falsely apologizing to police. They aren't sorry they got caught - they are going to do it again the next week or the next day (Sept 1-2, LE records from Moscow PD). Yet, the leaders of these houses (not just the ones on fraternity row, but including some private houses where students live) seem to need this quality of lying, dissembling, pointing blame elsewhere, etc. Are these situations creating Future Leaders who are antisocial?

Agreed with you for the most part until the section that begins above, respectfully, 'authority good, kids bad'?
IMHO each party was/is behaving according to their environment and expectations. Not sure how much of a link one can make about college kids not being forthcoming to LE about 'partying' and potential LT antisocial behaviour.
Are things getting worse on college campuses when it comes to students respecting other's rights? Very debatable.

There also is debate as to what constitutes a "mental disorder"; almost certain the perpetrator of this crime suffers from one or more, however at this point we, (the public), simply don't have enough information to do much more than throw darts, albeit with some aim.

Interesting article on defining mental disorders:

What is a mental disorder? An exemplar-focused approach

The question of ‘what is a mental disorder?’ is central to the philosophy of psychiatry, and has crucial practical implications for psychiatric nosology. Rather than approaching the problem in terms of abstractions, we review a series ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[everybodhi]

[snipped< for focus]
I do wonder why the FBI profiler is not used as of yet. I know it is to ensure all reports be provid3d but it just seems they would give people something to Explore. Maybe they know there ar3 50000 people who are conjecturing and don’t want to endanger real leads‍

I don’t think homicide detectives are concerned with giving us things to explore. Jmo
Several ex FBI profilers have provided their profile readings on multiple social media and news outlets, all different, social media sleuths are being kept busy naming the guilty based on those presumed profiles.
Obviously with so many contrasting theories by profilers it’s not a sure science but the FBI doesn’t keep a database showing success and failure rates.
Several studies have been done, most by universities, their results support my opinion that it’s not scientifically sound.
The problem with profiling’s effect on investigators is creating tunnel vision, the problem of profiling’s effect on the public is inspiring a mob mentality.

Facing the Beltway snipers, profilers were dead wrong
The Beltway Snipers weren’t white guys in a light van or truck, aged 20’s-30’s, local to Maryland with menial jobs or recently fired who would “go out in a blaze of glory” as the FBI profiled them. They were Black guys, 41 and 17, long time unemployed drifters with no ties to the area, carrying a WA drivers license and driving an old blue caprice sedan with NJ tags, arrested without a struggle sleeping in their car. They had been stopped 10 times during the crimes, (including once at a local rest stop just 2 hours before killing more people), and were let go by police because they didn’t fit the FBI profile.
During Atlanta's Centennial Olympic Park bombing, Richard Jewell had a profile especially conformed to fit him when in reality, all he did was to try and help people, he won a lawsuit after his life was destroyed.
Dr. Steven Hatfill is still plagued by fitting the FBI profile of the "Anthrax Killer." The DOJ focused the media on him, kept him under surveillance, searched his house, and cost him his university teaching position before AG Ashcroft turned around and announced he was never a suspect.

Seattle Times
Police net catches the wrong man
Police spent years surveilling taxi driver and ambulance medic Melvin Foster for the Green River murders because he fit the FBI profile, he also failed a polygraph (also not reliable science) because he confused names of women he had driven in his taxi while Gary Ridgeway passed his polygraph and continued to kill women for over two decades.

 

[OrlandoJames]

Thinking that myself as well about killer using K & M's phone to make the calls. Most people have passcodes, face recognition, or lock screens. So, if the killer did use their phone, they would have had to either take hostage their phones while they were alive and coherent or hold up phones to their faces for face recognition while they were deceased. Very creepy and extra work, for what? IMO MOO

Weren’t there also text messages sent at the same time? The police will know the content of those messages and therefore whether they likely came from K and M, or the killer.

 

[Cardgame]

Idaho murders: Leaked image appears to show victims inside local bar hours before unsolved stabbings

The bar is much less crowded than I imagined it would be. There should be witnesses if anything weird went down there, although I guess lots of people might have been drunk by that hour.

Hopefully anyone in that image who hasn't come forward will now remember they were there and come forward with new information.

 

[Mr. Mal]

Weren’t there also text messages sent at the same time? The police will know the content of those messages and therefore whether they likely came from K and M, or the killer.

Yes, I have faith the police can judge a lot over the content of text messsages but I have not read about texts, only:

“Kaylee calls J six times between 2:26 a.m. and 2:44 a.m. From 2:44 to 2:52 Maddie calls J three times, then Kaylee makes a final call to him at 2:52 a.m.”

Idaho murder victim's sister says she called man 7 times night of slayings: Report

The sister of Kaylee Goncalves, one of the four University of Idaho homicide victims, says she called a man named Jack six times before she was killed.

www.foxnews.com

 

[avalonisland]

I've tried to respond to 10 of Rods' post in previous thread unsuccessfully, so have cut and pasted here - hope that's OK - unsure how else to it (technically challenged)

This is 10 of Rods excellent post. (Apologies to The Observer and everyone for my intrusion)

"I hadn't really thought about this, but maybe K and M didn't make the calls?
My DH keeps asking about that and I've had that thought too (there are so many small elements to this case, but it has occurred to me that the killer was already in the house, took the phones, made the calls and at least one text). But had he already killed the two women? Doesn't seem consistent with the timeline established by...the Coroner? (By now, you should all know that I am a teeny bit skeptical about her statements, as they seem to change over time).

Unfortunately, Kaylee's sister has already gone public with the fact that Kaylee "always called people up in the middle of the night," sometimes dialing over and over and then asking what she should have for breakfast and regarding this as a prank."

(Surely, this could have happened to the sister - but did Kaylee really do that in general? If not, I sure wish the sister hadn't already said that she did).

Returning home around 1:55am, ate Carbonara- box placed on top trash bin at patio sliding door, then falling asleep in 3rd floor bedroom by 2:26am? Would seem more realistic imo that the killings were done after 3AM. I think that at the first call, 2:26am, both Maddie and Kaylee were in the bed and fell asleep maybe made final calls. <modsnip>