ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Link isn't working (where did those asterisks come from?). Could you please re-link it. Thanks!

Usually... When there are asterisks in a link it is because the site has not been approved by WS....

But there may be other reasons I am not aware of...

HTH...

 

[ClaireNC]

Here are some links for those just joining the thread.

DeOrr Kunz media links:
-Article first interview with Grandma: Grandma of missing 2-year-old: “He Just Vanished” Updated at 6:40 pm, July 12th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/grandma-of-missing-2-year-old-he-just-vanished/

-Full unedited interview with parents from July 13: UNEDITED INTERVIEW: Parents of Missing Idaho Toddler Speak Out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358

-Short version of interview with parents from July 13: Heartbroken Parents of Missing 2-year-old: “We’ll find you son. Updated at 2:51 pm, July 13th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/heartbroken-parents-of-missing-2-year-old-well-find-you-son/

-911 call from mom, full version: Mother’s 911 phone call released — “My 2-year-old son, we can’t find him…” http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/mothers-911-phone-call-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

-Article and video of Campground, July 15: A closer look: the campground where Deorr Kunz disappeared Updated at 5:56 pm, July 15th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

-Video of Nancy Grace show. Deorr Kunz search featured on Nancy Grace http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/deorr-kunz-search-featured-on-nancy-grace/

-Transcript of Nancy Grace show from July 15: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1507/15/ng.01.html

-HLN article, sonar brought in, interview with grandpa Kunz, cremain dumping 7/17: Family fears missing 2-year-old was abducted http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted


-PEOPLE article: “Mom of Toddler Who Vanished While Camping Won't Put Down His Baby Blanket, Boy's Grandfather Tells PEOPLE” http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks

-KMVT update July 17: “The search for a missing toddler continues in remote Eastern Idaho” http://www.kmvt.com/content/news/The-search-for-a-missing-toddler-countinues-in-remote-Eastern-Idaho-316310011.html

-Daily Mail article: “Search continues for toddler who vanished from Idaho campsite last week as police reveal chance he was abducted is 'remote'” Read more: [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3165519/Police-continue-search-toddler-disappeared-Idaho-campsite.html#ixzz3gGbYYn00
[/URL]

-KTVB article and video, day 5 of search, interview with aunt - 4 minute video: “Search for missing boy leads back to reservoir” http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/15/missing-boy-deorr-search-dogs/30209081/

-KTVB 7/17 update video: http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-deorr-lemhi-no-trace/30262877/

-KTVB 7/17 p.m. update sonar robot being used: “Sonar robot being used in search for missing East Idaho toddler” http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/17/sonar-robot-being-used-in-search-for-missing-east-idaho-toddler/30319703/


-KTVB video interview with grandfather: Missing toddler's grandfather believes boy was abducted http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/17/missing-toddlers-grandfather-believes-boy-was-abducted/30321903/

-KTVB video: Former sheriff offers perspective on Lemhi County search http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-challenges-sheriff/30259235/

Maps of the area:
BYO’s maps: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11934108#post11934108

Google map with relevant locations: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?usp=sharing&mid=zW6CBVbxpdYA.klXz-SrbHNBI

Bing Map from this post: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11934743#post11934743

https://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?encType=1&where1=44.58087%2c%20-113.46596&cp=44.5808715820313~-113.465957641602&qpvt=44.58087%2c+-113.46596&FORM=MIRE#Y3A9cmR4MmRyNWpiNDV5Jmx2bD0xNSZzdHk9YiZxPTQ0LjU4MDg3JTJDJTIwLTExMy40NjU5Ng==

Snoopster's maps: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11936318#post11936318

Here is a slightly "tilted" view of the camp area to give a sense of terrain. https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Tim...0f57ef867884c6

Here's an even more tilted, longer range view https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Tim...0f57ef867884c6

Other:
Help Find DeOrr Kunz Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/FindDeorrKunz?fref=ts

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Here and some links for those just joining the thread.

DeOrr Kunz media links:
-Article first interview with Grandma: Grandma of missing 2-year-old: “He Just Vanished” Updated at 6:40 pm, July 12th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/grandma-of-missing-2-year-old-he-just-vanished/

-Short version of interview with parents from July 13: Heartbroken Parents of Missing 2-year-old: “We’ll find you son. Updated at 2:51 pm, July 13th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/heartbroken-parents-of-missing-2-year-old-well-find-you-son/

-Full unedited interview with parents from July 13: UNEDITED INTERVIEW: Parents of Missing Idaho Toddler Speak Out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358


-911 call from mom, full version: Mother’s 911 phone call released — “My 2-year-old son, we can’t find him…” http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/mothers-911-phone-call-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

-Article and video of Campground, July 15: A closer look: the campground where Deorr Kunz disappeared Updated at 5:56 pm, July 15th, 2015 http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/a-closer-look-the-campground-where-deorr-kunz-disappeared/

-Video of Nancy Grace show. Deorr Kunz search featured on Nancy Grace http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/deorr-kunz-search-featured-on-nancy-grace/

-Transcript of Nancy Grace show from July 15: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1507/15/ng.01.html

-HLN article, sonar brought in, interview with grandpa Kunz, cremain dumping 7/17: Family fears missing 2-year-old was abducted http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted


-PEOPLE article: “Mom of Toddler Who Vanished While Camping Won't Put Down His Baby Blanket, Boy's Grandfather Tells PEOPLE” http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks

-KMVT update July 17: “The search for a missing toddler continues in remote Eastern Idaho” http://www.kmvt.com/content/news/The-search-for-a-missing-toddler-countinues-in-remote-Eastern-Idaho-316310011.html

-Daily Mail article: “Search continues for toddler who vanished from Idaho campsite last week as police reveal chance he was abducted is 'remote'” Read more: [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3165519/Police-continue-search-toddler-disappeared-Idaho-campsite.html#ixzz3gGbYYn00
[/URL]

-KTVB article and video, day 5 of search, interview with aunt - 4 minute video: “Search for missing boy leads back to reservoir” http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/15/missing-boy-deorr-search-dogs/30209081/

-KTVB 7/17 update video: http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-deorr-lemhi-no-trace/30262877/

-KTVB 7/17 p.m. update sonar robot being used: “Sonar robot being used in search for missing East Idaho toddler” http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/17/sonar-robot-being-used-in-search-for-missing-east-idaho-toddler/30319703/


-KTVB video interview with grandfather: Missing toddler's grandfather believes boy was abducted http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/17/missing-toddlers-grandfather-believes-boy-was-abducted/30321903/

-KTVB video: Former sheriff offers perspective on Lemhi County search http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-challenges-sheriff/30259235/

Maps of the area:
BYO’s maps: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11934108#post11934108

Google map with relevant locations: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?usp=sharing&mid=zW6CBVbxpdYA.klXz-SrbHNBI

Bing Map from this post: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11934743#post11934743

https://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?encType=1&where1=44.58087%2c%20-113.46596&cp=44.5808715820313~-113.465957641602&qpvt=44.58087%2c+-113.46596&FORM=MIRE#Y3A9cmR4MmRyNWpiNDV5Jmx2bD0xNSZzdHk9YiZxPTQ0LjU4MDg3JTJDJTIwLTExMy40NjU5Ng==

Snoopster's maps: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?285131-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015&p=11936318#post11936318

Here is a slightly "tilted" view of the camp area to give a sense of terrain. https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Tim...0f57ef867884c6

Here's an even more tilted, longer range view https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Tim...0f57ef867884c6

Other:
Help Find DeOrr Kunz Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/FindDeorrKunz?fref=ts

thank you, ClaireNC!

this is a treasure trove of links!

:seeya:

 

[jmcgladr]

I don't think they allow the Inquisitr because of previous issues.

Ah, OK, was news to me. Won't post links to that site again.

 

[bessie]

When a series of asterisks appears in a url, that's an indication the site is banned on WS for one of various possible reasons.

If a link shows up with the asterisks, you should remove the link from your post. Otherwise, mods will remove the entire post.

The same is true for words which display as a series of asterisks.

Any questions about TOS -- "the rules" -- always should be addressed in a private message to a mod or admin.

ETA: Discussing ways to skirt the rules will earn one a Time Out.

 

[Roselvr]

Here is the sonar article

(modsnip) around the time he went missing, a 9 yr old autistic Michigan boy had been missing for 6 days when he was found in a lake. The lake had been dredged 3 times. I've never had a good feeling when I heard about the water. Praying he's found today

Sonar robot being used in search for missing East Idaho toddler

Bonneville County Det. Eric Southwick says late Thursday night the Lemhi County Sheriff's Office requested the use of their dive team.

Divers have been in the water numerous times scouring nearby Stone Reservoir for any clue as to the whereabouts of the child.

This new dive team has the capabilities of side sonar, according to Bonneville County. Divers typically use a sonar robot to assist them in muddy or foggy waters.

The waters of Stone Reservoir are clear. The lake is small with a muddy bottom, according to Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner.

 

[ClaireNC]

Was it "emt bag or empty bag"? Will someone living in the area please contact the tv station and ask them to post an answer on their facebook site. Thank you.
http://www.ktvb.com/local/

KTVB FB

:seeya: I believe the long interview was conducted by East Idaho News, not KTVB7. https://www.facebook.com/EastIdahoNews and http://www.eastidahonews.com/

 

[Aeronomy]

I did some thinking about how long it would take DeOrr to walk uphill to the reservoir.

It's 4 tenths of a mile - that's 2,112 feet
A 2-year-old walking at least 1 foot with every step would have to walk 2,112 steps.
Each step taking half a second is 1,056 seconds -( approx. 18 minutes )
That's on flat ground and walking a beeline-like path

Going uphill will slow him down. Add another 10 mins - 15 mins? (28 minutes - 33 minutes)
The terrain itself will slow him down. Add another 5 mins - 15 mins? (33 minutes - 48 minutes)
Distractions will slow him down. Say he stops every 50 feet for a minute? Add 42 minutes. (75 minutes - 90 minutes)

Already it's probably close to one hour and 30 minutes of walking without factoring in any falls or any rest periods that take more than one minute, so I can see why it would take him a couple of hours or more to get to the reservoir. I wonder how soon LE arrived after the call since the timeframe given is aligned with the parents searching 20 mins, and if SAR were already checking the area of the reservoir and the terrain around it prior to him being missing for 90 minutes to 2 hours.

 

[katydid23]

from the recent PEOPLE article:



The elder Kunz says the boy's parents were setting up camp and assumed Mitchell's grandfather, who was also on the trip, was watching the boy. The grandfather assumed the boy's parents were watching him, says Kunz.

"There's a four-minute window where no one had an eye on him," says Kunz, 70. "My grandson is paying the ultimate price for this."

As of now, investigators are still combing the camp site, officials say. The boy's parents refuse to come down from the site until they have a definitive answer that their son, who loved trucks and carried a baby blanket, is not there.

"My family has been torn apart," says Kunz. "He's my little buddy. I don't wish this on anybody."
http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks

hmmmmm....I still grapple with this explanation. It does not seem consistent with other statements about how it happened.

And what is this 4 minute window?

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

When a series of asterisks appears in a url, that's an indication the site is banned on WS for one of various possible reasons.

If a link shows up with the asterisks, you should remove the link from your post. Otherwise, mods will remove the entire post.

The same is true for words which display as a series of asterisks.

Any questions about TOS -- "the rules" -- always should be addressed in a private message to a mod or admin.

ETA: Discussing ways to skirt the rules will earn one a Time Out.

I'm sorry...

I wasn't trying to find a way to skirt the system...

I just thought possibly a legit MSM had picked up the same story... And had reported it in a legitimate fashion...

My bad...:slap:

 

[Lizzzard]

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I'm just getting caught up on the thread. Here are some thoughts based on my own mix of experience and opinion.

These are all just my thoughts so take them for what they are worth.

1. LE-I am a huge LE supporter. My impression of this case is that this department is doing the best they can. The county population is under 8,000. It's probably safe to say the are unaccustomed to dealing with cases like this and the media attention they bring. They don't have a PIO (I'm guessing) and aren't comfortable during interviews, which is why we have heard them say odd things to the press and to the family. Examples of odd things are statements about their relationship and interactions with the family and making the mistake (IMO) of saying they are 100% sure the child isn't in the water. This is a "small town" sheriff's department and SAR that is doing the best they can. The best move that was made was looking for outside (more experienced) help.

2. Predator activity-Based on my own knowledge and opinions I don't believe this applies to this case. At some point, scavenger/predator activity could be a factor but I do not believe an animal (known or paranormal) is responsible.

3. The store visit-If it was their first day there, and if Dad (DK Sr) is correct about his timeline, I believe it makes the most sense that they stopped on their way to the campgrounds and did not backtrack(but maybe this is wrong). DK Sr said the whole family was there. Either, he was correct and the clerk got the time wrong or it was a totally unrelated "filthy, bawling child." I don't believe that an abductor would take a child away from the family and then stop at the (presumably) first store he comes to, only 8-10 miles from the site. Too risky. If an abductor was stealthy enough to get in and out of that site with a child, that would be a really unstealthy move.

4. The dogs-Dogs are fantastic and have saved many people and helped bring closure to many families, but scents that are useful for tracking have a shelf life and it's often short and easily compromised. Despite this they still try, even when they know the chances are slim. Why wouldn't they still try? Unfortunately, this then makes them look like an ineffective tool. References to cadaver dogs vs scent dogs could very well be talking about the same dogs. Cadaver dogs are often different dogs than tracking dogs, but not always. Dogs can be cross-trained. Think of police K-9's that can do bite work as well as drug scenting and/or suspect tracking.

5. The media-I wouldn't get too caught up in discrepancies between media reports. They get details wrong all of the time, large and small. Also, I don't think the unedited video interview reveals any attempt to disorientate the parents. For the most part, it looks like what I would expect from pre-edited interview footage but it's a non-typical subject (thankfully). We are just accustomed to seeing post-edit interviews when they look more slick.

6. Abduction theory-I want to be careful how I say this out of respect for forum rules and the parents. I don't believe there was a stranger abduction. I also don't believe the parents hurt their child, but someone may have.

7. The water-Like many here, I think there is still a good chance that Little DeOrr is in the water. I also think that his flatland walking skills, or lack of, may have gotten too much focus and was an exaggerated statement by a parent that doesn't want to believe he could have moved fast enough to get to any body of water. I believe the statement was akin to his, "I don't know what day today is" comment.

8. The helicopter-There had been concern about Dad's preoccupation with the helicopter and it's equipment. The reason I think he was so impressed is because it's super impressive! The helicopter was Two Bear Air. That helicopter has been able to find many people in the couple of years its been used. It is also occasionally used to survey grizzly bear dens. There is amazing video footage of a grizzly den that they checked out and the capability of the heat sensitive cameras is amazing. This isn't your typical, "fly over the scene with a helicopter and hope to get lucky spotting something," helicopter search. This bird is equipped specifically for finding and accessing people in some of the most challenging terrain in the world. I believe that if that little boy was toddling around when the helicopter was there, they would have found him. Because of the capabilities of this helicopter and its equipment and crew and all of the other information we've seen, I believe that if this boy is still there, he's either under the water or in the ground. I hate to say that but that's my opinion.

Here is the grizzly den video to show how sensitive the infrared camera is:

https://www.facebook.com/MontanaFWP.R1/videos/702381863209745/


edited for typos

 

[eileenhawkeye]

from the recent PEOPLE article:



The elder Kunz says the boy's parents were setting up camp and assumed Mitchell's grandfather, who was also on the trip, was watching the boy. The grandfather assumed the boy's parents were watching him, says Kunz.

"There's a four-minute window where no one had an eye on him," says Kunz, 70. "My grandson is paying the ultimate price for this."

As of now, investigators are still combing the camp site, officials say. The boy's parents refuse to come down from the site until they have a definitive answer that their son, who loved trucks and carried a baby blanket, is not there.

"My family has been torn apart," says Kunz. "He's my little buddy. I don't wish this on anybody."
http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks

hmmmmm....I still grapple with this explanation. It does not seem consistent with other statements about how it happened.

And what is this 4 minute window?

This one says differently:

About 10 to 20 minutes passed before they realized he was missing.

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...arch-for-missing-east-idaho-toddler/30319703/

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

:wagon: Lizzzard!

And thank you for the thorough, informative post!

:seeya:

 

[ninij9]

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I'm just getting caught up on the thread. Here are some thoughts based on my own mix of experience and opinion.

These are all just my thoughts so take them for what they are worth.

1. LE-I am a huge LE supporter. My impression of this case is that this department is doing the best they can. The county population is under 8,000. It's probably safe to say the are unaccustomed to dealing with cases like this and the media attention they bring. They don't have a PIO (I'm guessing) and aren't comfortable during interviews, which is why we have heard them say odd things to the press and to the family. Examples of odd things are statements about their relationship and interactions with the family and making the mistake (IMO) of saying they are 100% sure the child isn't in the water. This is a "small town" sheriff's department and SAR that is doing the best they can. The best move that was made was looking for outside (more experienced) help.

2. Predator activity-Based on my own knowledge and opinions I don't believe this applies to this case. At some point, scavenger/predator activity could be a factor but I do not believe an animal (known or paranormal) is responsible.

3. The store visit-If it was their first day there, and if Dad (DK Sr) is correct about his timeline, I believe it makes the most sense that they stopped on their way to the campgrounds and did not backtrack(but maybe this is wrong). DK Sr said the whole family was there. Either, he was correct and the clerk got the time wrong or it was a totally unrelated "filthy, bawling child." I don't believe that an abductor would take a child away from the family and then stop at the (presumably) first store he comes to, only 8-10 miles from the site. Too risky. If an abductor was stealthy enough to get in and out of that site with a child, that would be a really unstealthy move.

4. The dogs-Dogs are fantastic and have saved many people and helped bring closure to many families, but scents that are useful for tracking have a shelf life and it's often short and easily compromised. Despite this they still try, even when they know the chances are slim. Why wouldn't they still try? Unfortunately, this then makes them look like an ineffective tool. References to cadaver dogs vs scent dogs could very well be talking about the same dogs. Cadaver dogs are often different dogs than tracking dogs, but not always. Dogs can be cross-trained. Think of police K-9's that can do bite work as well as drug scenting and/or suspect tracking.

5. The media-I wouldn't get too caught up in discrepancies between media reports. They get details wrong all of the time, large and small. Also, I don't think the unedited video interview reveals any attempt to disorientate the parents. For the most part, it looks like what I would expect from pre-edited interview footage but it's a non-typical subject (thankfully). We are just accustomed to seeing post-edit interviews when they look more slick.

6. Abduction theory-I want to be careful how I say this out of respect for forum rules and the parents. I don't believe there was a stranger abduction. I also don't believe the parents hurt their child, but someone may have.

7. The water-Like many here, I think there is still a good chance that Little DeOrr is in the water. I also think that his flatland walking skills, or lack of, may have gotten too much focus and was an exaggerated statement by a parent that doesn't want to believe he could have moved fast enough to get to any body of water. I believe the statement was akin to his, "I don't know what day today is" comment.

8. The helicopter-There had been concern about Dad's preoccupation with the helicopter and it's equipment. The reason I think he was so impressed is because it's super impressive! The helicopter was Two Bear Air. That helicopter has been able to find many people in the couple of years its been used. It is also occasionally used to survey grizzly bear dens. There is amazing video footage of a grizzly den that they checked out and the capability of the heat sensitive cameras is amazing. This isn't your typical, "fly over the scene with a helicopter and hope to get lucky spotting something," helicopter search. This bird is equipped specifically for finding and accessing people in some of the most challenging terrain in the world. I believe that if that little boy was toddling around when the helicopter was there, they would have found him. Because of the capabilities of this helicopter and its equipment and crew and all of the other information we've seen, I believe that if this boy is still there, he's either under the water or in the ground. I hate to say that but that's my opinion.

Here is the grizzly den video to show how sensitive the infrared camera is:

https://www.facebook.com/MontanaFWP.R1/videos/702381863209745/


edited for typos

Awesome first post lizzzard!! And ::welcome:: you make excellent points. I havent seen or heard anything g that makes me suspect mom or dad. I'm sure I would say loads of inappropriate and or conflicting things on live TV, even if I wasn't traumatized (and they sure were). Give me some info on this family friend. Why so quiet?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Snoopster]

Good way of estimating the time, but isn't 4/10ths of a mile 211.2 feet? That's shorter than the length of an American football field and the length of my driveway.

I believe it is 2112 feet. Once around a track is about a 1/4 mile (.25 miles).

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Good way of estimating the time, but isn't 4/10ths of a mile 211.2 feet? That's shorter than the length of an American football field and the length of my driveway.

Because I enjoy math problems...(okay... Don't ask)...

I was,checking the math...

4/10ths of a mile is 40% of a mile

There are 5,280 feet in a mile...

40 % of 5,280 feet = 5,280 X .40 = 2,112.00 feet...

there are 100 yards (or 300 feet) in a football field...

therefore... 2,112 feet divided by 300 = Just a little over 7 football fields...(7 Remainder 12 feet, to be exact...)

HTH... :seeya:

 

[katydid23]

This one says differently:



http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/loca...arch-for-missing-east-idaho-toddler/30319703/

Yes, 10 to 20 minutes sounds more plausible. If it had really only been 4 minutes that he had been missing then they should have found him. He is just 2 1/2---an adult could catch up to him with a 5 minute difference in time. An adult could find him if he was toddling to the reservoir or down to the creek. Even if he had just fallen into the creek, I think and adult would still see him bouncing along in the water.

But 20 minutes---more problematic. He could be underwater and gone already.

 

[teeandcee]

This 4-minute window is leading me right back to a mountain lion. Aside from tumbling down into a stream, I just don't see any other explanation. Well, aside from this mysterious friend, but still....4 minutes to do whatever and successfully hide a body? I can't see that as a logical possibility. I'm sticking with the stream or a lion.

Every morning I eagerly come here first thing and am crestfallen when the little fella is still not found.

 

[ClaireNC]

Welcome lizzzard!! Great first post. :greetings:

 

[ClaireNC]

The "4 minute window" quote came from a grandfather that wasn't at the campground when DeOrr disappeared. Even the parents said it was 10 minutes. I suspect it was even a bit longer.