ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #17

[Aeronomy]

Just been listening to Klein on Kid590 and some things are clearer for me. No link yet so will wait to elaborate. The axillary issue for one is now clear to me.

http://590kid.com/2016/01/28/former-deorr-kunz-investigator/

 

[neesaki]

For anyone who missed it, here's the link to today's KID radio interview with Klein.

http://590kid.com/2016/01/28/former-deorr-kunz-investigator/

 

[Rayemonde]

With all due respect, this is not a quote from Sherrif Bowerman. The only direct quotes I can find is that he uses the words "POI" as he does for all four if them. The wording in this article is the phrasing of the newspaper. I just think the distinction is huge. It's only my opinion of course. Quite possible I'm not reading it correctly.

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I did post a link earlier where you can hear Bowerman use the word "suspect" himself.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Evening all (said in my best cockney copper accent). Trying to catch up so apologies if I've missed anything. Just want to throw my two penneth in:

I wonder if the family has been under surveillance?

Almost definitely. I think SB put out the "solid" statement to lull them into a false sense of security and then watched/waited to see what they did in the hope they'd lead them to DeOrr.

Note that he says within a couple of days the dogs were leading them to the reservoir. That sounds to me like the cadaver dogs were present and working for a day or two before they led them back to the reservoir. But I certainly could be wrong. Maybe he'll clarify tonight. To get back to my original point, whatever the order of events, SB is confident that the dogs searched thoroughly, and detected nothing of relevance.

Just a general observation about the ashes / cremains (what a horrible word!). Is this reservoir used for providing water to homes? Drinking water? I can't imagine why anyone would think dumping ashes in a reservoir would be acceptable!

I wonder if it might mean from the time IR or ggp saw Deorr in the morning (before he and his parents left for the store) to the time someone announced to them that Deorr was missing. If ggp was told Deorr was sleeping in the car upon return from the store (which would make it seem less questionable to leave ggp in charge) or something along those lines, to stop buying the parent's story would mean that the window of time would increase to just about 4 hours, imo.

This is what I think - the 4 hours is from DeOrr was last seen by anyone other than the parents. This could be Grandpa / IR / any other witness. I am reckoning this was around 10:30am and the 911 calls were at around 2:30pm.

There is physical evidence of what happened.. that statement makes me feel a bit sick.

I wonder if this prompted Kleins "we know HOW" statement.

 

[ClaireNC]

I'm assuming everyone has seen this: http://www.localnews8.com/news/Form...r-calling-parents-actions-suspicious/37668436

This is HUGE, IMHO. Sorry if I'm late to the party. My Google alert just sent this to me.

Thanks ehg. There has been a lot of big news the past few days. FYI: We do have a media thread for Deorr. It's a great place to see the latest news on the case all in one spot. And there are transcripts of some of the interviews. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page3

 

[LisaB]

I do believe him that these people are not truthful, but just saying he's making some connections that are a bit odd...unless hes holding back a lot of information.

Also, how is he allowed to publicly speak about all of this? Wouldn't there have been some expectation of privacy with his clients?

I think that when they did not pay as agreed, his obligation to confidentiality was lifted. When they started bad-mouthing him, and suggesting that they had fired him, he had to present the letter (which others had already alluded to on Social Media) and then answer questions about it. He should be given credit for waiting until the Sheriff declared them suspects, first, but this may actually HELP the Lemhi County LE by seemingly "backing them up" that there was something "off" about the case. Otherwise it is possible that people would think the sheriff is just not trying hard enough.

 

[LisaB]

He said he volunteered and they offered to kick him down some donation money. I'm not sure that means they agreed to pay him for his services (not arguing, just theorising).

They agreed to pay his expenses, but never did. He billed them (along with the letter) and has never been paid for his expenses. He wasn't even asking for his "going rate", just the cost of incidentals.

 

[LisaB]

Yes it came from TC.

Another name I do not recognize. Can you give me a clue? Obviously you can't use the real name, or you would have, but within the context of this case, what is "TC"'s role?

 

[Aeronomy]

You can save time in the recent interview with Klein by skipping to the 6 minute mark in part one. You won't miss anything.

 

[ninij9]

Sheriff names parents suspects in disappearance of Idaho toddler
By Crimesider Staff CBS News January 25, 2016, 4:26 PM

[...]
"They are the top persons of interest," Bowerman told CBS affiliate KBOI. "Does that mean they're suspects? Yeah I think so."

Parents of Missing Idaho Toddler Named Suspects in Summer 2015 Disappearance
by Rachael Trost NBC News Dateline Jan 25 2016, 4:46 pm ET

"We first became real suspicious of mom and dad after their initial polygraph tests, taken several weeks after DeOrr went missing. Then this past weekend, when the FBI handed over their reports and interviews, that's when we made the decision to inform the public," Sheriff Bowerman told Dateline.

There are more links in the Media Thread.

Thanks Bessie for trying to penetrate my thick noggin, but I'm still not seeing a direct quote from LE stating they are anything but POI. There seems to be alot of media saying the word, but I have yet to hear it from LE directly. IMO that's a big difference. Even the interview video was misleading because it is only bits and pieces patched in to the story. I'm going to stand by what I said about POI vs suspects. Thanks to you guys for trying to show me.

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[ClaireNC]

Evening all (said in my best cockney copper accent). Trying to catch up so apologies if I've missed anything. Just want to throw my two penneth in:

(snipped for focus)
Just a general observation about the ashes / cremains (what a horrible word!). Is this reservoir used for providing water to homes? Drinking water? I can't imagine why anyone would think dumping ashes in a reservoir would be acceptable!

This is what I think - the 4 hours is from DeOrr was last seen by anyone other than the parents. This could be Grandpa / IR / any other witness. I am reckoning this was around 10:30am and the 911 calls were at around 2:30pm.

I wonder if this prompted Kleins "we know HOW" statement.

Good evening, Cagney! The reservoir is not used for drinking water. It is used to control water flow out into the creek and it might be used by some of the local farms for irrigation. Definitely not for drinking water.

I also think the 4 hour window probably starts at around 10:30 am and ends when the 911 calls were made at around 2:30 pm.

Physical evidence +"how" =

 

[pepelepolecat]

Another name I do not recognize. Can you give me a clue? Obviously you can't use the real name, or you would have, but within the context of this case, what is "TC"'s role?

Maternal grandmother

 

[LisaB]

So, does that mean that, legally, you can disclose information for lack of payment? What about the whole "give a lawyer a dollar before you tell him anything" concept?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney–client_privilege

The privilege protects the confidential communication, and not the underlying information. For instance, if a client has previously disclosed confidential information to a third party who is not an attorney, and then gives the same information to an attorney, the attorney–client privilege will still protect the communication to the attorney, but will not protect the communication with the third party.

The privilege may be waived if the confidential communications are disclosed to third parties.

Other limits to the privilege may apply depending on the situation being adjudicated.

Lawyers may disclose confidential information relating to the retainer where they are reasonably seeking to collect payment for services rendered. This is justified on policy grounds. If lawyers were unable to disclose such information, many would undertake legal work only where payment is made in advance. This would arguably adversely affect the public's access to justice.

Lawyers may also breach the duty where they are defending themselves against disciplinary or legal proceedings. A client who initiates proceedings against a lawyer effectively waives rights to confidentiality. This is justified on grounds of procedural fairness—a lawyer unable to reveal information relating to the retainer would be unable to defend themselves against such action.

AND REMEMBER, PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS ARE NOT LAWYERS, SO ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE MAY BE A NON-ISSUE!

http://www.diligentiagroup.com/legal-investigation/private-investigator-privilege-confidentiality/

Do Private Investigators Receive Attorney-Client Privilege?

Attorney-client privilege is not typically extended to third party consultants, which is the standard arrangement when hiring a private investigator.

 

[bessie]

Thanks Bessie for trying to penetrate my thick noggin, but I'm still not seeing a direct quote from LE stating they are anything but POI. There seems to be alot of media saying the word, but I have yet to hear it from LE directly. IMO that's a big difference. Even the interview video was misleading because it is only bits and pieces patched in to the story. I'm going to stand by what I said about POI vs suspects. Thanks to you guys for trying to show me.

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"They are the top persons of interests," Bowerman said over the phone. "Does that mean they're suspects? Yeah I think so."

http://kboi2.com/news/local/report-...issing-toddler-deorr-kunz-officially-suspects

 

[Hoosier952]

I think it's quite possible that they were "solid" in the beginning. Everyone assumed it was a lost boy in the wilderness, everyone's stories matched. They may not have had a lot of time to comb through any evidence they had. Fast forward two weeks, a month, and then some. Lies get harder to remember. Maybe a slip of the tongue. Going through evidence piece by piece. Some things aren't quite matching up. It causes them to dig deeper, call in more help, ask more questions. It seems Vilt had a change of heart after the re-enactment. Maybe he had some suspicions from the beginning, or maybe they came about later, but I think something was said or something inconsistent came up at that re-enactment that made it hard to ignore. LE was at that re-enactment, so I'm sure they had some concerns as well.

If I recall, there was quite a long period of nothing happening in the public eye. I think big things were happening behind the scenes during this time.

 

[LisaB]

RSBM

Adopted ? Assuming Vernal is the bio-dad of little DeOrr... he'd have to relinquish him as well, and not just Jessica.
We have some friends and acquaintances who've adopted -- it can be a lengthy process after all is said and done.

It's just 'way out there' imo, for Jessica to have done this in the legal way. Unless it was done illegally.

But then we have IR who claims to have seen baby DeOrr at the campground...
Enough to boggle one's mind, this is !
:moo:

Regarding the Adoption Laws:
TITLE 16
JUVENILE PROCEEDINGS
CHAPTER 15
ADOPTION OF CHILDREN
16-1504. NECESSARY CONSENT TO ADOPTION. (1) Consent to adoption is required from:
(a) The adoptee, if he is more than twelve (12) years of age, unless he does not have the mental capacity to consent;
(b) Both parents or the surviving parent of an adoptee who was conceived or born within a marriage, unless the adoptee is eighteen (18) years of age or older;
(c) The mother of an adoptee born outside of marriage;
(d) Any biological parent who has been adjudicated to be the child's biological father by a court of competent jurisdiction prior to the mother's execution of consent;
(e) An unmarried biological father of an adoptee only if the requirements and conditions of subsection (2)(a) or (b) of this section have been proven;
(f) Any legally appointed custodian or guardian of the adoptee;
(g) The guardian or conservator of an incapacitated adult, if one has been appointed;
(h) The adoptee's spouse, if any;
(i) An unmarried biological father who has filed a voluntary acknowledgment of paternity with the vital statistics unit of the department of health and welfare pursuant to section 7-1106, Idaho Code; and
(j) The father of an illegitimate child who has adopted the child by acknowledgment.
(2) In accordance with subsection (1) of this section, the consent of an unmarried biological father is necessary only if the father has strictly complied with all requirements of this section.
(a) (i) With regard to a child who is placed with adoptive parents more than six (6) months after birth, an unmarried biological father shall have developed a substantial relationship with the child, taken some measure of responsibility for the child and the child's future, and demonstrated a full commitment to the responsibilities of parenthood by financial support of the child, of a fair and reasonable sum and in accordance with the father's ability, when not prevented from doing so by the person or authorized agency having lawful custody of the child, and either:
1. Visiting the child at least monthly when physically and financially able to do so, and when not prevented from doing so by the person or authorized agency having lawful custody of the child; or
2. Have regular communication with the child or with the person or agency having the care or custody of the child, when physically and financially unable to visit the child, and when not prevented from doing so by the person or authorized agency having lawful custody of the child.
(ii) The subjective intent of an unmarried biological father, whether expressed or otherwise, unsupported by evidence of acts specified in this subsection shall not preclude a determination that the father failed to meet any one (1) or more of the requirements of this subsection.
(iii) An unmarried biological father who openly lived with the child for a period of six (6) months within the one (1) year period after the birth of the child and immediately preceding placement of the child with adoptive parents, and who openly held himself out to be the father of the child during that period, shall be deemed to have developed a substantial relationship with the child and to have otherwise met all of the requirements of this subsection.

Regarding IR seeing the boy at the campsite... this may be strictly true, but he clearly did not want to discuss it. Was the child injured, or dead when he was "seen"? Nobody asks if he saw the boy alive, just if he saw him. Maybe he saw the boy taking a beating from a parent and doesn't want to say so because the child was alive afterward.

 

[scmom]

From the KID interview with Sheriff Bowerman:
MRA: Joining us is Lemhi County Sheriff Lyn Bowerman. Sheriff, welcome, good to have you with us.
SB: Thank you.
MRA: Um, interesting update to the story with DeOrr Kunz. You have name the parents as suspects. Maybe tell us what has led to your thinking and if there's any new information that led you tho this decision.
SB: Sure, well this, as you know has been a long extensive investigation. And due to the complexities I've been reluctant to inform the public that the parents have been less than truthful with us. That after the last interviews that we conducted with them, and after the final polygraph by the FBI we've all come to the same conclusion, that they're being less than truthful. So I place them at the top of the list of persons of interest and I think at that point, you can, yeah, you can say they're suspects.
http://590kid.com/2016/01/25/new-lemhi-sheriff-speaks-to-kid-about-deorr-kunz-jr-s-parent/

 

[LisaB]

SABBM

:goodpost:

I thought this had already been done with both parents and maybe the other two, as well. Might be getting ahead of myself, though.
IMO

Have we all forgotten the "burner cells" Terri Horman used with DeDe and others following Kyron's disappearance? They could have gotten one before the trip, or even during the drive to town. They could then have communicated freely, dumped the phones later, and nothing on their "real" phones would incriminate them.

 

[leep]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sheriff...in-disappearance-of-idaho-toddler-deorr-kunz/

"They know something, I just don't know what they know," he told the station. "It causes me alarm. I believe they know where he is absolutely."

This says it all for me on the parents involvement.


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[CoverMeCagney]

Good evening, Cagney! The reservoir is not used for drinking water. It is used to control water flow out into the creek and it might be used by some of the local farms for irrigation. Definitely not for drinking water.

I also think the 4 hour window probably starts at around 10:30 am and ends when the 911 calls were made at around 2:30 pm.

Physical evidence +"how" =

Hiya Claire! Very glad to hear that re the reservoir. I think in the UK all (?) our reservoirs are used for public homes, and we drink tap water so.... bleeurrrgh (I know it's cleaned and filtered, but...)

Very intrigued to hear more on the physical evidence bit, but yeah, if the two are connected indeed... It can't be enough to arrest the parents though, so what is it?