ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #18

[dtsnyder]

I keep thinking about SB saying that IR places Deorr at the campsite after the store trip. Perhaps that is what IR was told - that Deorr was there, but taking a nap (either in the truck or the suburban) and that he would be fine with GGP. But that he never saw him running around - alive. But because he was told that, he believes it - and therefore states it as fact <modsnip>.

He could have possibly seen him when they arrived at camp the previous night. But didn't necessarily see him the next day because he was either sleeping in or already fishing by the time the family was loaded in the truck to go to Leadore.

We don't have a clear timeframe on when they left the campsite that morning, right? Just that they were at the store at the time of the receipt. I think they left earlier than 10:00.

 

[Rayemonde]

I went with baby Deoor wandered theory and still go back there from time to time but the lies make it impossible to stay there for me. They lied about the reward money being disallowed by LE. Why? Were they afraid someone knew what they did and would tell for money?

According to Vilt funds raised might have been mismanaged/stolen. Money can be a huge reason to lie.

FBI/LE says they lied about when and how baby Deoor disappeared. If they are lying the big question to me is why? I cant get past that one.

JMO

Well, I've thought a lot about that too. this is all just speculation -

Maybe DeOrr wandered off, and they lied about what they were doing at the time and how long he'd been gone for. They would know that there was no mystery of how he had just vanished in a few minutes. They would know he had been wandering lost for a while, and that no abductor had been hiding behind a tree waiting to grab him.

So after a couple of days, they would know that he was probably no longer alive. Say they were feeling guilty, and paranoid about being found out. When they gave their first interview there was a huge backlash of people saying they were lying. After that they just wanted the whole thing to go away, imo. The last thing they wanted was Vilt getting them more and more press coverage and more attention by offering his reward. They knew it was pointless.

*If* money did really go missing, and *if*the parents were responsible for that (I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt on this one), it was probably just an opportunistic thing. There's this money sitting there, we need money and we know it can't help DeOrr because we know he's already deceased on the mountain, so where's the harm in keeping it for ourselves?

 

[giagreen]

<modsnip>
As for admitting to having been smoking pot when your child wandered off, particularly if you expect him to be found safe, would invite Child Protective Services into your life. I do not know the circumstances surrounding JM's ex having custody of their children, but if drugs were involved, she might have known she was being irresponsible to leave Deorr unattended for a few minutes, and been afraid of losing him as soon as he was located.

I am not sure drugs were involved as Vernal's employment may be contingent upon clean drug tests.

I'd originally believed they either ducked out of sight to smoke pot or have "private grown-up time", but the drug testing and purchase of feminine products changed my mind.

If they also bought groceries/ice in town, who put them away? Where was Little Man then?

Sent from my Studio 6.0 LTE using Tapatalk

<modsnip>
Where they drug tested for pot? I was unsure of that. And if tested for pot I'm not sure if that proves they were high well DeOrr went missing because pot stays in your system for 30 days give or take.

Way back in the beginning I also suggested maybe they went off to smoke a joynt or for some adult time. But seems that isn't what happen so I've kinda dropped that idea. But just because DK drives truck doesn't mean he doesn't smoke pot. Idk about other trucking companies but the two that my sons father has worked for don't drug test unless your in an accident. Otherwise its been one drug test before starting and that's usually all for insurance reasons.

 

[haven71]

The fact that they have been named suspects says a lot. We're not just coming up with out-there theories, we're trying to make sense from the facts we know. And trying to piece everything together, which of course is impossible for us, and even very difficult for LE. The lying, inconsistencies, polygraph results, evidence...I believe 100 percent that they know what happened to Deorr and where he is.

That said, remember how he said they went to the store "as a family"? I believe Deorr went to the store later (with SB??) and the clerk said she remembered them (but not necessarily Deorr, just a child around that age in general). I think Deorr was probably with them or he wouldn't have chanced using that phrase. But if Deorr wasn't with them, I doubt he'd say that because it would be much easier to say JM and Deorr waited in the truck. Much easier than lying, or the clerk saying she was certain Little Deorr wasn't there, or the possibility of security cameras in the store.

If he made it back from the store is a whole 'nother ballgame. IMO.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Why is there any doubt about who was posting under TC's FB account? I've seen that mentioned before. If it wasn't TC, don't you think she would have made sure everyone knew it was a fake account?

Early on in the series of threads, the mods pointed out that there is no guarantee that a social media account is actually held by the person whose name it is under. They have a point, and I'll go with that until they say otherwise.

 

[Mickshawn]

I believe I agree with Klein about the timeline. It starts when the parents left for Leadore (or at least when they leave Leadore) and ends when LE arrives (~ 4 hrs. )

Then, really...he wasn't comparing apples with apples.

17 min. vs. 4 hours

17 (ish) minutes was how long they claimed to be exploring at the creek. (Time left with GGP till time they returned to campsite). Sounds like he's talking about a whole different time scope.

 

[ILOKAL]

I think she did because she says she called 911 at 2:36, but we know it was 2:28. I haven't seen a cell phone in a long time that required manual time setting, so it seems unlikely that her phone and he dispatch center would have such a discrepancy.

So, it seems 2:36 was an important call. Not necessarily suspicious. But you'd think she'd be trying to find her 2 year old rather than staying in the one lucky spot for cell reception talking to someone on the phone. Her mom already knew DeOrr was missing and due to the poor cell reception it seems logical that TC would be the one notifying other family members.

There may not be any call at 2:36, and maybe she was looking for her 2 year old while her mom called everyone else and got on her way to the campsite.

You know, she wasn't looking at her phone during that interview. It seemed it was in her right pocket. It made a noise and she put her hand inside to shut it off or something. IMO. She seemed to believe at the time the 2:36 WAS when she made the 911 call. Is there some big deal about that?

 

[pepelepolecat]

Someone said that TC "or whoever was posting under her account" said something. I didn't understand why there was any question that it was really TC. Apparently some thought maybe it was JM or DK under TC's account.

Oh for goodness' sake, I most certainly did not think it was JM or DK under that account, nor did I imply it. I was -- as far as I knew -- complying with the mods' previous request umpteen threads ago to not just assume that a social media account is always in full control of its owner. And you know what? They were right to say that. Just in the last 48 hours, I've seen two separate friends on FB who had someone else post under their account as a joke. No, I do not think that either JM or DK was using that account. I think it's by far more likely to be TC. But the mods made their request, and I complied, and I do not like people making insinuations or accusations towards me for doing that.

 

[carbuff]

They're distinctive looking and say R U B I C O N across the doors lol. At least the ones I've seen!

Yeah. But they aren't expensive.

 

[ILOKAL]

Well, the two questions they were less than truthful about weren't about what they were doing. They were; do you know what happened to DeOrr and do you know where DeOrr is. Those are pretty telling questions to not be truthful about.

Not truthful and "less than truthful" are not the same. That's why Bowerman is using "less than truthful". They don't mean the same thing. IMO

 

[Jo in Calif]

"Less than truthful" doesn't mean they lied. Had they lied, they would have failed their polygraphs. I keep reminding that those specific words, "less than truth" are used for a reason.

I'm having a hard time with this. With the parts that the sheriff said they were less than truthful with were yes or no questions, if they answered no to those questions and failed those questions in 4 polys wouldn't that be a lie?

 

[giagreen]

<modsnip> there an app for smartphones that can let you post as someone els. Pictures and all. And all I ever see are screen shot and never the actual post. And basing it on who some of the screen shots come from its hard to tell if they are real or made up considering Klein and SB have both said that sm has put out some info that was misleading. Klein if I remember right even saying some have done this intentionally to mislead the investigation.

This is why I like ws so much. Because all the screen shots, fb rumors, and really anything on some of those pages are simply just misleading and on a one track agenda. Its nice to be able to keep things based on what we know as facts.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

OR . . . . This? OR . . . . That? OR how about . . . . THIS!? Or, how about he wandered off and got lost?

Btw, did IR participate in the search?? I didn't read about his help.

 

[ILOKAL]

I am probably going to get a timeout for this post, but...

Way back in the beginning, when we were first introduced to this cast of characters, I thought IR and GGP were said to have met at AA. If so, I'd say that rules out them drinking on this trip.

As for admitting to having been smoking pot when your child wandered off, particularly if you expect him to be found safe, would invite Child Protective Services into your life. I do not know the circumstances surrounding JM's ex having custody of their children, but if drugs were involved, she might have known she was being irresponsible to leave Deorr unattended for a few minutes, and been afraid of losing him as soon as he was located.

I am not sure drugs were involved as Vernal's employment may be contingent upon clean drug tests.

I'd originally believed they either ducked out of sight to smoke pot or have "private grown-up time", but the drug testing and purchase of feminine products changed my mind.

If they also bought groceries/ice in town, who put them away? Where was Little Man then?

Sent from my Studio 6.0 LTE using Tapatalk

Where are all these drug and alcohol suspicions coming from? Do the parents have a history? I haven't read that they do. Did I miss that?

 

[haven71]

I'm finding it hard to believe that they would be searching a full hour before calling 911. If my child were missing, every minute searching would feel like a decade. There were 4 people there. GGP could've stayed at "home base" while 2 others frantically searched while one person quickly called 911. I can't grasp that there is a creek and a reservoir and likely predators in the area that they had any reason to look that long (seems like a stall).

Then, at a certain point they became so fervent that Deorr Sr hauled down to ensure cell service while his wife already had them on the line? Why after an hour would 2 people decide they immediately need to call 911? Not to mention the call JM made didn't sound frantic or urgent.

This seems odd IMO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Link to where we discussed it... She also said the LE had told the family to stay away from the media, and that ggp was on oxygen, she explained about an emt bag being stolen, and told us that the campers arrived late thursday night, not Friday as we'd all thought before that...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015-5/page41

The sheriff spoke about "early afternoon or early evening" on Thursday - why doesn't he know better?

 

[giagreen]

Btw, did IR participate in the search?? I didn't read about his help.

Dang it!!! A question I wanted to ask SB or Klein in one of their q&a but always forgot when the time came.

 

[Midge Montana]

Not truthful and "less than truthful" are not the same. That's why Bowerman is using "less than truthful". They don't mean the same thing. IMO

Ok, those are two pretty important questions to be less than truthful about. Why in the world would anyone not be 100% truthful when asked (during a poly no less, and multiple times) if you know WHERE YOUR MISSING CHILD IS???

I used the correct words there for you. Does it change the outcome of those two answers? They were not telling the whole truth, nothing but the truth, but instead were less than truthful when asked if they knew what happened to their toddler and if they know where their toddler is. I can think of no innocent reason to be less than truthful about knowing where DeOrr is. Can you? I'm truly interested in your opinion on why they wouldn't be 100% truthful about knowing where their child is. I see that you have very strong feelings on this and that's good. I'd just like to know your thoughts on that particular, very specific question.

 

[ILOKAL]

I went with baby Deoor wandered theory and still go back there from time to time but the lies make it impossible to stay there for me. They lied about the reward money being disallowed by LE. Why? Were they afraid someone knew what they did and would tell for money?

According to Vilt funds raised might have been mismanaged/stolen. Money can be a huge reason to lie.

FBI/LE says they lied about when and how baby Deoor disappeared. If they are lying the big question to me is why? I cant get past that one.

JMO

For the record, and I think we're all trying to keep it straight, FBI and Bowerman did not say they lied.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Where are all these drug and alcohol suspicions coming from? Do the parents have a history? I haven't read that they do. Did I miss that?

I think people are just trying to make sense of the facts as they understand them -- drugs and alcohol would mean that it would be easier to lose track of your child or make poor decisions re: your child. BUT Klein said that there is no evidence of drug involvement. As for alcohol, lots of people drink when camping, but I haven't seen any LE say anything about excessive alcohol (and there'd almost certainly be evidence of that if it were the case). For now, I'm assuming they're reasonably clean, re: drug and alcohol, until I see evidence of otherwise.